ryst Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 When I was in school, one of the mic tecjniques I learned about briefly was really interesting but I never quite understood it. The "effect" of this technique can't really be heard through regular speakers or monitors. But when you listen through headphones, you can hear it. The sample I heard was of a pair of scissors that sounded like they were going up and down around my head. From one ear, to the top of my head and back down to the other ear. Sorry if this is kinda vague. Does anyone know what mic echnique this is to achieve this effect? www.myspace.com/apocrypha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veracohr Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 http://www.binaural.com/index.html "And then you have these thoughts in the back of your mind like 'Why am I doing this? Or is this a figment of my imagination?'" http://www.veracohr.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip OKeefe Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 Yup, most likely it was a binaural recording. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philbo_Tangent Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 This sort of sounds like the LEDR test on the Chesky listening space test CD (except that it uses a cabasa shaker). If your speakers and room are set up well, this test actually will make it sound like the source of the sound moves through a vertical arc above the speakers. I'm not sure how useful it is, but I do try it as a final check after changing my room around, just to get an idea of how the phasing and imaging are doing. Oh, yeah, BTW, the LEDR wasn't generated using mics, it was created by some mainframe computer program. Here's an article about it that Bob Katz wrote in 1989 http://stereophile.com/features/772/ Phil Tangent Studios http://artists.iuma.com/IUMA/Bands/Tangent2/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryst Posted May 23, 2005 Author Share Posted May 23, 2005 I did some research and found some info on this technique. I am really interested in this but was wondering if you guys could share some experiences and how to do this. I know you need two omni mics positioned on each side of your ears. If the mics are stationary then the sound source itself would have to move around, right? Couldn't i use s a pair of omni tie clip mics and walk around while recording? Any suggestions for some good tie clip mics? www.myspace.com/apocrypha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryst Posted May 23, 2005 Author Share Posted May 23, 2005 www.myspace.com/apocrypha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spokenward Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 The dummy "head" mounting of mics is integral to the technique. Lou Reed did a couple of records using the technique. Head mounted mics, popular with tapers, use the same principle. Core Sound and Oade Brothers have resources and information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantasticsound Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 Originally posted by ryst: I did some research and found some info on this technique. I am really interested in this but was wondering if you guys could share some experiences and how to do this. I know you need two omni mics positioned on each side of your ears. If the mics are stationary then the sound source itself would have to move around, right? Couldn't i use s a pair of omni tie clip mics and walk around while recording? Any suggestions for some good tie clip mics? You can build a binaural head. It's a lot easier than you might think. A buddy of mine built one and demonstrated it to our psychoacoustics class at Columbia College in 1990. It was made from a mannequin head, some Radio Shack electret condenser elements and ears made from a latex mold kit he purchased from a Halloween costume shop. A friend helped him create molds of his own ears which subsequently were used to cast latex ears which were mounted to the mannequin head. The microphones were mounted inside holes where the "ears" were placed. No mechanical impedance matching system was used. (Some binaural heads go the extra mile, using mechanical parts to imitate the impedance matching done by the Hammer, Anvil and Stirrup bones in your ears.) The entire project cost him something like $25, and the sound was unreal. We each auditioned it through headphones. It was absolutely freaky to watch a can of seeds move around the binaural head in front of me while hearing it behind my own head. And freaky just doesn't describe the perception of watching someone whisper into the back of the head with those headphones on. The keys to any binaural head are approximating the distance between the "ears" and using a cast of a real pinnae. (The part of your ear we can see.) Studies have shown that minor damage to the pinnae will, initially, throw off your ability to gauge direction, but that your brain compensates rather quickly. If you lose an entire pinnae, you lose the ability to accurately gauge direction. Left/right becomes difficult, and up down is impossible. It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman Soundclick fntstcsnd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryst Posted May 23, 2005 Author Share Posted May 23, 2005 WOW!!!! Now I am interested! I saw the list price of the Neumann dummy head and realized that I would have to sell the rest of my gear just to buy that mic. This is much more interesting. So I just need to find a mannequin dummy head and place two omni mics on each "ear"....cool. You also said "The keys to any binaural head are approximating the distance between the "ears" and using a cast of a real pinnae. (The part of your ear we can see.) Studies have shown that minor damage to the pinnae will, initially, throw off your ability to gauge direction, but that your brain compensates rather quickly. If you lose an entire pinnae, you lose the ability to accurately gauge direction. Left/right becomes difficult, and up down is impossible." If I have a dummy head, would I still need to make sure the mics are the correct distance from each other? And if so, how do I accomplish this? Can't I just put the mics on the ears and be done with it? www.myspace.com/apocrypha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantasticsound Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 the dummy head should be fine as a distance measurement. Without a molded pinnae you'll simply get a stereo image. The folds of your pinnae create http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/images/ency/fullsize/9528.jpg It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman Soundclick fntstcsnd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Swedien Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 I have a binaural recording head in my studio. Binaural recording provides 360-degree virtual audio. It has many limitations. It is fascinating.... I did a series several years ago at the University Of Wisconsin in Madison. Our hearing system uses only partially understood mechanisms to suppress the effects of reflections and reverberation. The fact that we localize sound sources on the basis of which signals reach our ears first, is known as the precedence effect. This is not to say that we are unaware of the reflections that follow. Actually, we subconsciously use the subsequent reflections to estimate range, or the distance we are from the sound source. A word to the wise - In my opinion, a music producer/engineer is no better than his tools. Our main tools are, of course, a good pair of ears and the wonderful brain to which the ears are connected. If the hearing is faulty, only faulty judgements can result. Please try and remember that good hearing is a rare and wonderful gift. Bruce Swedien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantasticsound Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 I was wondering when you'd add something to this thread, Bruce. I almost missed it, too. It's amazing how our ears and brains can concentrate on single noises, both for recognition and localization, while ignoring many other sound sources. Have you recorded any albums with the binaural head with, "behind the head" location, Bruce? It would be fun, as the only time you'd hear the effect would be in headphones. And I have no idea how much other instruments would interfere with a single or a few binaurally recorded stereo instruments. What do you think/know, Bruce?? It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman Soundclick fntstcsnd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Swedien Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 fantasticsound sez-------->I was wondering when you'd add something to this thread, Bruce. I almost missed it, too. It's amazing how our ears and brains can concentrate on single noises, both for recognition and localization, while ignoring many other sound sources. Have you recorded any albums with the binaural head with, "behind the head" location, Bruce? It would be fun, as the only time you'd hear the effect would be in headphones. And I have no idea how much other instruments would interfere with a single or a few binaurally recorded stereo instruments. What do you think/know, Bruce?? Brucie sez-------->On Quincy's album "The Dude" I recorded all the persusson in Binaural. It was when the cassette "Walkman" had just come out. I saw all these young folks with a walkman and stereo headphones affixed to their ears! I thought to myself - "A CAPTIVE BINAURAL AUDIENCE!" There were some Audio Articles that the press did, I remember doing a little piece in Billboard, and guess what.... Nobody even noticed!" Big deal!!! Somewhere in my stuff here I have all my notes from my University Of Wisconsin series on Binaural. It is a fascinating topic, though..... I could go on and on..... Bruce Swedien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Swedien Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 I forgot my Graemlins!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantasticsound Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 Thanks Bruce! That was a stroke of genius, IMHO. (Seeing the link between Walkmans and the "captive" audience for this unusual technique.) Now I have to find a copy of "The Dude" BTW - when you say you recorded percussion in binaural, did you set up several percussion players around the head,to get better imaging from in front of the percussionist,or for specific instruments placed in front of, behind or in other places around the head? It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman Soundclick fntstcsnd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 I'd like to see the percussion players walk around the head all grinning and all; moving their instruments up and down of course! -David http://www.garageband.com/artist/MichaelangelosMuse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
20to20 Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Check out the new TapeOp... Bob Phillips 20to20soundesign Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryst Posted May 25, 2005 Author Share Posted May 25, 2005 Originally posted by Bruce Swedien: It is a fascinating topic, though..... I could go on and on..... Bruce Swedien Bruce, PLEASE DO!!! i would like to read and learn more about this from yoU! PLEASE?????? www.myspace.com/apocrypha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryst Posted May 26, 2005 Author Share Posted May 26, 2005 Originally posted by ryst: Originally posted by Bruce Swedien: It is a fascinating topic, though..... I could go on and on..... Bruce Swedien Bruce, PLEASE DO!!! i would like to read and learn more about this from yoU! PLEASE?????? Please oh please oh please, Bruce!!!!! www.myspace.com/apocrypha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ginomgreen Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 I am graduating from Columbia college on sunday. and for the last couple years I have been working with sensaphonics in chicago to create binaural heads. I have enterchangable pinnas. I can get diffrent colored silicon and plastics. I have done some glow in the dark heads, those a pretty cool. I've sold some to the students at Coloumbia, just seeing if any of you are interested or need tips on making your own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantasticsound Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 I might be interested, Gino. Congratulations! Neil Bergman, Columbia College, Class of '91 I wanted to come back for the massive Alumni reunion this weekend, but I have a gig Sunday, outside Nashville. 7am from the shop, 9am load in, so I doubt I'd survive even if I could find an affordable ticket at this late date. Do you have any jobs lined up? Did you intern at Sensaphonics? What do they have for setups in 676 N. LaSalle, these days? When I attended Columbia, my friend Cory Coken's dad owned Zenith dB studios in that space. We had classes there, but Columbia didn't buy the space until a year after I graduated. I spent many a night with Cory and some other Columbia friends, recording, jamming, learning and generally having a blast in those studios. Oh, and is The Blue Frog bar still on the ground floor? It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman Soundclick fntstcsnd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip OKeefe Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 just seeing if any of you are interested or need tips on making your own. Post 'em if you've got 'em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryst Posted June 2, 2005 Author Share Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by Philip O'Keefe: just seeing if any of you are interested or need tips on making your own. Post 'em if you've got 'em. Yes! A complete "how to" guide would be great because I have never done anything like this before but I really want to soon. www.myspace.com/apocrypha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ginomgreen Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 Well They moved the Audio Arts and Acoustics to 33 E Congress and built three to studios with three control rooms on the ground floor. there is also a surround lab on the sixth floor. and Jack Alexander has his live sound room which he fully loaded with Martin speakers. We have been messing around with surround in live situations. The Blue Frog is still there. The Studio Cordinator Tony, bought the lasalle studios. Any ways to build the first binaural head that I made I molded my head with plaster, in six diffrent peices, two for each pinna and one for the front and one for the back. I also molded my earcanals and put those into the mold as well. I had to do a lot inside the mold to make negitive space for the mics. Then I poured rtv160 silicon into the mold. It came out pretty cool. but its kind of freaky looking at your self. I'm currently building the second model. using someone elses head, this next one is going to have interchangable pinnas and beable to accomodate diffrent capsules. Let me know what you think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmptinesOf Youth Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 so if im understanding this, you get molds of your ears, and a dummy head, place the omni mics inside the head and have them line up with your eardrums? even if im wrong this is really interesting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantasticsound Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 Originally posted by ginomgreen: Well They moved the Audio Arts and Acoustics to 33 E Congress and built three to studios with three control rooms on the ground floor. there is also a surround lab on the sixth floor. and Jack Alexander has his live sound room which he fully loaded with Martin speakers. We have been messing around with surround in live situations. The Blue Frog is still there. The Studio Cordinator Tony, bought the lasalle studios.I knew they purchased a building near the main campus for the audio department, but I've never seen what they built. I need to make time to stop in. We go to the museum campus from time to time, but a weekend leaves little time to see Columbia. (My family lives 45 min. and 1 1/2 hours drive away.) Sounds like a great facility! It would've made my life a bit less.. interesting. Our classes were mostly at 4 or 5 studios around downtown. That's great to hear Jack Alexander is still teaching. He was on again, off again when I was there over dealing with the Radio department heads who were his bosses back then. I think audio has more autonomy now. Is that right? Any ways to build the first binaural head that I made I molded my head with plaster, in six diffrent peices, two for each pinna and one for the front and one for the back. I also molded my earcanals and put those into the mold as well. I had to do a lot inside the mold to make negitive space for the mics. Then I poured rtv160 silicon into the mold. It came out pretty cool. but its kind of freaky looking at your self. I'm currently building the second model. using someone elses head, this next one is going to have interchangable pinnas and beable to accomodate diffrent capsules. Let me know what you think Cool. Any chance you can post some sound clips? How badly does converting to mp3 mess with the spatial relationships? It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman Soundclick fntstcsnd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLAblablah Posted June 5, 2005 Share Posted June 5, 2005 Originally posted by 20to20: Check out the new TapeOp... Excellent article (and they have mannequins on eBay ) . Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phait Posted June 5, 2005 Share Posted June 5, 2005 I once asked at this forum why we can't pan up and down, and all I got was a smartass reply "put one monitor on top of the other". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Kantola Posted June 5, 2005 Share Posted June 5, 2005 Have you checked out HRTF-stuff? For those not familiar with the name, it's a device that tries to electronically process your sound the way a dummy head does, including all effects of your head and ears. They record test signals from different angle and azimuth with microphones inside somebody's ears to capture the transfer functions. Same problem as with dummy heads, no two heads or ears are the same, and also limited by many other factors. Worth to check out, because you can (more or less) do binaural processing on your recorded material, and you can experiment without messing with silicone. Having said that, I'd very much like to build a binaural head myself, having read this thread! Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ginomgreen Posted June 7, 2005 Share Posted June 7, 2005 I didn't know that there was a box that could do head related transfer function, do you know a link where I could check that out. I got some mp3 and other formats of binaural recording but don't know how to put them on this forum can any one tell me If any of you want to see some photos of how I made the head I made or any of the polar patterns I did with a TEF machine you can email me at ginomeyer@hotmail.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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