jsaras Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 Regardless of whether I use linear phase or minimum phase mode, it seems like the stereo image gets narrower when I make any changes in the bass region. This happens when I cut the peaks or if I bring up the valleys. The overall sound is more one-dimensional as a result, and not in just the bass region. If someone else could test out this phenomenon and share that'd be appreciated. BTW, I'm an extremely experienced listener (yes, I know about frequency masking, etc.) and I don't need the Har-Bal zombies to attack me ....however, I may just be crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Knight Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 I'm a Har-Bal user and I can't say I've experienced your problem. The only problem/pitfall I've experience is boosting some of the valleys in the midrange can result in a phasey sound. This is due, I'm sure, to boosting stuff that just isn't there. I've not noticed any stereo imaging artifacts at all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderton Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 Hmmm...haven't noticed that either, but I'll try what you describe and see if I can hear anything. Craig Anderton Educational site: http://www.craiganderton.org Music: http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/craig_anderton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsaras Posted March 1, 2005 Author Share Posted March 1, 2005 Bumpity bump! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoxTick Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 I'll be using it tonight, I've never noticed any imaging issues. I'll pay attention to the imaging after eq'ing. 0096 2251 2110 8105 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylen Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 Originally posted by jsaras: Regardless of whether I use linear phase or minimum phase mode, it seems like the stereo image gets narrower when I make any changes in the bass region. Hi jsaras I didn't get a chance to test this yet but I'm wondering if the stereo field shift has to do with the loudness compensation Har-Bal does. When we were messing around with Har-Bal the other day I noticed that the Frequency Response Graph (Graph->View->Frequency Response) indicates that the LC is done using the actual Filter (mids and highs are increased in the EQ filter when bass is adjusted) instead of a gain or level knob. I wonder if that messes with anything? I don't see a way to turn LC off... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsaras Posted March 1, 2005 Author Share Posted March 1, 2005 The loudness compensation may indeed be the culprit. I've run into a song sounding smaller on several occasions now. This doesn't happen with any other EQ, so something's going on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbmasters Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 I guess the first thing that comes to my mind is wondering exactly how flat you make the frequency curve in that bass area...if it gets too flat it can get very one dimensional, and that's not Har-Bal, that just the physics of sound...but then, you all know that... I dunno, just spouting off what entered my head. Dan Ball dB Masters Multimedia - http://www.dbmasters.net/ Home Recording Connection - http://www.homerecordingconnection.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderton Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 I've contacted the HarBal people, and invited them to get involved...they might have some theories about why/why not this might/might not be the case. Craig Anderton Educational site: http://www.craiganderton.org Music: http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/craig_anderton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Har-Bal Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 Thanks Craig The description of the problem sounds very similar, if not the same as one discussed on our forum. See here: http://har-bal.com/ipw-web/bulletin/bb/viewtopic.php?t=307 My response to the claim is much the same as in this thread. HarBal does nothing to alter stereo imaging. If you change the spectral balance and find the image has narrowed or widened it is because the imaging information is not homogenous across the spectrum. This is NOT a function of HarBal nor of loudness compensation. You can prove it to yourself by duplicating the frequency response that HarBal has realized in any EQ of your choice and you'll end up with the same effect. From the above thread, it looks as though ed1966 did just that and discovered that the problem was actually in the source material and had nothing to do with HarBal. Paavo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylen Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 Paavo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylen Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 Originally posted by dbmasters: I guess the first thing that comes to my mind is wondering exactly how flat you make the frequency curve in that bass area...Thats another reason why I began checking the 'Frequency Response' view from time to time. Sometimes a lot of cumulative noodling around and flattening in the 'Spectrum' view can make some pretty outrageous spline EQ shapes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderton Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 <> That makes a lot of sense -- thanks Paavo! Craig Anderton Educational site: http://www.craiganderton.org Music: http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/craig_anderton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lurker Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 Originally posted by Voice of Sanity: HarBal does nothing to alter stereo imaging. If you change the spectral balance and find the image has narrowed or widened it is because the imaging information is not homogenous across the spectrum. This is NOT a function of HarBal nor of loudness compensation. Forgive me, but I don't understand your response. As I read it: "if HarBal changes the imaging, HarBal had nothing to do with it." From your response, it sounds like changes in imaging are a side effect of HarBal. Is that right or am I missing something? TIA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderton Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 < What he's saying is that the process of changing the spectral balance can cause the image to change, because the stereo imaging is different in different parts of the spectrum. To take an extreme example, with most music bass is centered, and percussion is spread in stereo. If you emphasize the treble, the imaging will sound "wider." If you emphasize the bass, the imaging will sound "narrower." It's not the EQUALIZER that's changing the imaging, it's the EQUALIZATION that's changing the imaging, based on any inherent imaging "built into" the music. Craig Anderton Educational site: http://www.craiganderton.org Music: http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/craig_anderton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Har-Bal Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 Thanks Craig, You diggested what I said and made it much clearer than I ever could! One other think I add is that I noted that jsaras suspected that loudness compensation may have something to do with it. In summary he said, "...the other day I noticed that the Frequency Response Graph (Graph->View->Frequency Response) indicates that the LC is done using the actual Filter (mids and highs are increased in the EQ filter when bass is adjusted) instead of a gain or level knob. I wonder if that messes with anything? I don't see a way to turn LC off..." The reality is, though his quick inspection of the filter frequency response is suggestive of boosting the mids and highs because of loudness compensation, in actual fact all loudness compensation has done is turned up the volume. There is nothing frequency selective in loudness compensation. It is just a volume control linked to the loudness figure of merit. I would think turning up the volume can affect the perceived stereo image of a track but I'd be reticent to blame the volume control for that. Thanks, Paavo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Roberts Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 Certain consoles will shift the bass image in 2 buss summing as well, even when centered. This is a crosstalk/Powersupply issue. Hope this helps. Bill Roberts Precision Mastering -----------Since 1975----------- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Knight Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 Originally posted by Anderton: < What he's saying is that the process of changing the spectral balance can cause the image to change, because the stereo imaging is different in different parts of the spectrum. To take an extreme example, with most music bass is centered, and percussion is spread in stereo. If you emphasize the treble, the imaging will sound "wider." If you emphasize the bass, the imaging will sound "narrower." It's not the EQUALIZER that's changing the imaging, it's the EQUALIZATION that's changing the imaging, based on any inherent imaging "built into" the music. Right! I've found that HarBal has helped me learn what a good balance of frequencies is for my mixing. In other words... the closer I can get in my mixing, and the less HarBal has to do to compensate, the better. If major surgery is required in HarBal, things are going to start getting funny... Sometimes it works but... If you use HarBal's information to do better mixes and smaller tweaks within HarBal itself, things start sounding really good. Any "after mix" major tweaking is going to skew things. Stereo width, phase freq-outs, etc. Not just in HarBal, but any post processing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylen Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 Originally posted by Har-Bal: "...the other day I noticed that the Frequency Response Graph (Graph->View->Frequency Response) indicates that the LC is done using the actual Filter (mids and highs are increased in the EQ filter when bass is adjusted) instead of a gain or level knob. I wonder if that messes with anything? I don't see a way to turn LC off..." The reality is, though his quick inspection of the filter frequency response is suggestive of boosting the mids and highs because of loudness compensation, in actual fact all loudness compensation has done is turned up the volume. There is nothing frequency selective in loudness compensation. It is just a volume control linked to the loudness figure of merit. Thanks for clearing that up Paavo - the loudness compensation is simply a gain and the 'Frequency Response' graph is post EQ and LC DSP operations. I didn't know how LC worked and that seemed to be a main difference between Har-Bal and other EQs. So that's why I pointed out that curiousity. The original poster (jsaras) seemed to be hearing a difference and has enough experience and monitoring to hear a difference so maybe he'll come back in and report some later findings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lurker Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 Originally posted by Anderton: < What he's saying is that the process of changing the spectral balance can cause the image to change, because the stereo imaging is different in different parts of the spectrum. To take an extreme example, with most music bass is centered, and percussion is spread in stereo. If you emphasize the treble, the imaging will sound "wider." If you emphasize the bass, the imaging will sound "narrower." It's not the EQUALIZER that's changing the imaging, it's the EQUALIZATION that's changing the imaging, based on any inherent imaging "built into" the music. Thanks. That's as I understood it. Don't mean to be a rabble rouser, and think this is an interesting piece of software, but when the Har-Bal rep says in this thread that "HarBal does nothing to alter stereo imaging" when it obviously does (for all the perfectly understandable reasons enumerated above), he makes me think car salesman, move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderton Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 <> But HarBal per se doesn't alter the imaging, it's what you do with it. ANY eq will do that under the right conditions, but people never talk about console channel strip EQ altering imaging. An example of something that does alter stereo imaging in and of itself would be jitter. In other words, add jitter to a signal, and stereo imaging changes. Add HarBal to a signal, and maybe stereo imaging changes...maybe not. Craig Anderton Educational site: http://www.craiganderton.org Music: http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/craig_anderton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lurker Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 Yes! Now I see what you're saying. I wasn't thinking of it like that before. Thanks for clearing it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylen Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 Originally posted by Anderton: What he's saying is that the process of changing the spectral balance can cause the image to change, because the stereo imaging is different in different parts of the spectrum. To take an extreme example, with most music bass is centered, and percussion is spread in stereo. If you emphasize the treble, the imaging will sound "wider." If you emphasize the bass, the imaging will sound "narrower." It's not the EQUALIZER that's changing the imaging, it's the EQUALIZATION that's changing the imaging, based on any inherent imaging "built into" the music. OK - I finally got it, thanks Craig. I ran a little test in Sonar4 using C_Superstereo (phase scope) and the Sonitus EQ. It's a little easier to 'see' using the phase scope I mentioned because it displays numerical min/max phase values. If I adjust the bass or treble the stereo image shifts. I didn't know that! (hehe telling on myself here). I guess I can understand why mastering engineers MUST have tools to adjust the stereo field now...I thought it was to enhance, it seems it's to fix the stereo field after EQ and compression alter it. Very interesting [for me]. Thanks guys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.