Are You Giving Yourself the Chance to Live?

[Blue Strat]

Originally posted by Dan South

You can shop for clothes, books, even musical instruments without every leaving the house.

You can also use a spell checker to correct your grammar without ever leaving the house.

[Michelle ggurl]

Good points, even the disagreeing ones, but I gotta say, Chip, I do agree with your initial sentiment: I think Ken/Eleven Shadows summed up how I feel about it best. Yes, there are exceptions, but the "overall zeitgeist of our society is going in this direction. Not only are we expressing concern for people and society in this regard, but also because entire generations will grow up internalizing this and think that this is "normal"."

 

That's the crux of it. We may have "more free time," but values on how to spend it encourage solitude ... we're not in a cafe, we're on the Internet, folks!

 

As for me, well, I am an anachronism (whether before or after my time, I don't know, but I don't think I belong here, now ...). I am I jazz musician in the suburbs of one of the world's corporate/hi-tech meccas. I am not that old, but old enough to see the change in how culture/arts are regarded around here. Lots on offer to see and do, but still less than before. Less demand for it. Fewer people care.

 

I kinda got my wake-up call in my late twenties when I became debilitatingly injured and decided I needed to make different choices in my life. As Lee said, people who go against the norm often pay for it. In some ways I have; that is my choice, but I never wanted to "send a message," or "be an example" of rebellious behavior. I just wanted to live a life healthy for ME. There is a narrow definition of what is appropriate for our society, and some of my choices do not fit within that spectrum. Doesn't make that corporate-job choice "normal," as Ken said. Who was it that said, "It is no measure of spiritual health to be well adjusted to a sick society" -- or something like that?

 

It is a FACT certain choices I have made/am making are not ones rewarded by society. I don't chase money or titles or designer clothes or status-symbol cars. I have been fortunate to have supporting family and friends, though.

 

In the end, I think we're all living without a net. No guaranteed security in chasing security either ...

 

Anyway, thanks for the musings, Chip.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Dan South:

At no time in human history have people had so much discretionary time and available leisure activities than in the last few decades.

This is a myth actually. Hunter gatherers worked about 15 hours a week, and spent a good deal of their time at art, music, dancing, sports and social gatherings.

 

And sorry, "stop whining" and "you have a choice how to react to your surroundings" is not going to make the very real problems our society faces, go away. Neither will having more toys, and more channels on the TV, even if we think all that stuff is cool. That's a naive attitude and reflects a lot of denial.

[Kendrix]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

Originally posted by Dan South:

At no time in human history have people had so much discretionary time and available leisure activities than in the last few decades.

This is a myth actually. Hunter gatherers worked about 15 hours a week, and spent a good deal of their time at art, music, dancing, sports and social gatherings.

 

And sorry, "stop whining" and "you have a choice how to react to your surroundings" is not going to make the very real problems our society faces, go away. Neither will having more toys, and more channels on the TV, even if we think all that stuff is cool. That's a naive attitude and reflects a lot of denial.

As is typical for such BIG topics folks are taking it in different directions and some "talking past each other" is goin on.

 

To clarify: The question posed was "are you giving yourself a chance to live?"

Embedded in the question is the assumption that we each have a choice as to whether or not we give ourselves this chance.

 

Of course chosing to react to your surroundings in a positive way wont necessarily change the environment. However, it is way to "give yourself a chance to live" (whatever that may mean to you).

 

Nothing about this represents denial of the state of affairs around us.

 

1)Society/the environment has got some major issues that need attention now.

 

2)If you react as positively to them as possible and dont allow you self to be pulled-down emotionally by them - then you may enjoy life more. Id suggest you might also be more effective at addresing the issues you face.

 

I dont see these two points as being in conflict.

I think they are both true.

I dont think that's naive at all.

[Anderton]

<>

 

Not always. Having health problems with family members is incredibly expensive and therefore makes huge demands on one's time -- both in termrs of taking care of people's needs, and making enough money to pay the bills that are incurred yet insurance doesn't cover. No one chooses to have family members get sick from genetically/environmentally-related, not lifestyle-related, reasons.

[TBush]

<

You can leave anytime you want, it's your choice.>>

 

Absolutely- I'm constantly reminded of how priorities are so important. How many folks can we all think of who barely make (not have) time for the people that they truly love and care for? And that ties in with Craig's comments about expensive long-term care. It is really difficult to do with costs being higher than before (relative to actual dollars) and we all will probably face difficult choices with family members growing older. My Amish neighbors, while being more than a bit backwards technology-wise, nevertheless have a tried-and-true method of taking care of their elderly- they invariably build an addition onto the existing house and move them in! Really, modern America has a bass-ackwards view of what is considered "accomplished" or "successful". For me, it's not money or notoriety (although both are perfectly fine in the right context)- I have to think in terms of obeying Christ and being faithful to what I know is true. Life ain't perfect- it's still beautiful, though. Great comments all around- and it is sad to see some in my own circle of friends who run themselves ragged based on choices that are informed not by Truth, but by whatever fleeting amorpheus social construction comes down the pike with promises of fulfillment.

 

2c...

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Kendrix:

To clarify: The question posed was "are you giving yourself a chance to live?"

Embedded in the question is the assumption that we each have a choice as to whether or not we give ourselves this chance.

 

Of course chosing to react to your surroundings in a positive way wont necessarily change the environment. However, it is way to "give yourself a chance to live" (whatever that may mean to you).

I don't think that was Chip's point though... his point was that he feels alienated by OTHER people's seeming lack of caring whether they have time to contemplate anything or not.

 

No matter how much you might personally try to enjoy life on any given day and make time for that, it's extremely frustrating when no one around you places a very high premium on the things that matter most to you - most especially if the things that matter to you are positive, substantial things.

 

I think Chip was just looking for a little compassion and a sign that somebody out there could relate to what he was saying... and I think he's gotten quite a few responses that are exactly the sort that make him feel alienated.

[coyote]

Is it really worth working double-overtime in order to afford 11 channels of HBO and 8 channels of Showtime?

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

And sorry, "stop whining" and "you have a choice how to react to your surroundings" is not going to make the very real problems our society faces, go away. Neither will having more toys, and more channels on the TV, even if we think all that stuff is cool. That's a naive attitude and reflects a lot of denial.

Lee... I agree with you. And yet I don't.

 

You're right that many real problems continue to exist regardless of whether I choose a salad or fried chicken for dinner AND regardless of whether I choose to flip off my boss when he delays my project yet again. But so often, life hands us circumstances that we truly cannot change. Even Jesus knew He couldn't lift all the poor from their misery and He couldn't do away with Roman taxation. But He could choose how he dealt with what life presented; we all can choose our thoughts & actions in any circumstance (limited by what we've already chosen, of course). Choosing NOT to flip off my boss is not merely about "he would probably fire me if I did"....

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by coyote:

we all can choose our thoughts & actions in any circumstance (limited by what we've already chosen, of course)...

Yes, theoretically we CAN. And it's a good coping skill to have, for sure - a skill we all need. The question is whether it's always a good idea.

[Gord -B]

To take a line out of Lost In Translation:

 

"The more you know who you are and what you want, the less you let other things upset you"

 

So much in life is crap that just is not worth worrying about... you live you die, whats the point in worrying.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Gord -B:

"The more you know who you are and what you want, the less you let other things upset you"

I hadn't heard that one, but that's funny. Like so many things, it's true sometimes but there's nothing inherently true about it. On the contrary, many of the most self directed and self aware people are also the most alienated from those around them.

[Dennyf]

Originally posted by Ken/Eleven Shadows:

Lazy.

 

Because I can take long trips, play in a band, record music, indulge in photography, and read books in my spare time and don't have a kid, I am now lazy. Or unambitious.

Laziness. The most undervalued quality of existence.

 

I postulate that laziness is the genesis of all human technological progress. It's all a result of someone looking for an easier way to do things. How can that be a bad thing?

 

And slightly more on-topic, I'll be brash enough to quote myself from another thread.

 

Another way of looking at it is too many people choose their careers or professions because they think it will make them a lot of money. So they wind up doing stuff they don't love, or even particularly like, and need lots of distractions unrelated to their work in order to feel they are getting some kind of fulfillment out of life. I love what I do, and look forward to practically every day. My girlfriend gets annoyed because I don't WANNA go on vacation and miss out on some work opportunity or other.

 

I don't make very much money (although I think I'm flirting with the poverty line this year), but I never feel deprived in any way. Of course, a lot of this has to do with the aforementioned girlfriend, but I'm not quite the cliche "kept" musician, I pay my own way.

 

My point is that there are other compensations besides money to be enjoyed by those who follow their own "muse," whether it be music, art, public service, i.e. anything other than "sound, practical career paths." Heck, I get more satisfaction out of changing my guitar strings, or doing PA equipment maintenance than I ever got out of any straight job I ever had, even though these activities don't directly result in any income. Actually playing music with other people, or recording, or writing is the most fun I can imagine having, so why would I ever do anything else as long as I'm making enough to keep body and soul together?

 

It would be easy to make lots more money, at the cost of selling my life away in 8-hour chunks.

 

That's too high a price for me.

[Gord -B]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

Originally posted by Gord -B:

"The more you know who you are and what you want, the less you let other things upset you"

I hadn't heard that one, but that's funny. Like so many things, it's true sometimes but there's nothing inherently true about it. On the contrary, many of the most self directed and self aware people are also the most alienated from those around them.

I think my views on inherent truth have already been made in another thread

[Anifa]

Originally posted by Anderton:

<>

 

Not always. Having health problems with family members is incredibly expensive and therefore makes huge demands on one's time -- both in termrs of taking care of people's needs, and making enough money to pay the bills that are incurred yet insurance doesn't cover. No one chooses to have family members get sick from genetically/environmentally-related, not lifestyle-related, reasons.

I echo this full scale as I've been crippled by medical debt myself in the past; only the patient was me and not a family member. Forced time out of work without pay for recovery can also collapse one even further. No matter how much you plan for tragedy or dispair; no one can predict what will hit them in the face tomorrow.

 

And that ties in with Craig's comments about expensive long-term care. It is really difficult to do with costs being higher than before (relative to actual dollars) and we all will probably face difficult choices with family members growing older. My Amish neighbors, while being more than a bit backwards technology-wise, nevertheless have a tried-and-true method of taking care of their elderly- they invariably build an addition onto the existing house and move them in!

If only it were as easy and economically appeasing as to build an addition onto a home. What if the family member happens to be your child of whom you are responsible for their needs? What if your spouse becomes the surviving victim left paralyzed by a car crash where the other driver was uninsured? People that have never had the suffering of major medical bills or the devastation of divorce do not really have a concept as to what others exposed to the turmoils have endured.

 

I spend prime time with my children, but it seems as they grow older, the more I do for them; the less they show their appreciation. I probably do not do nearly enough to pamper myself or buy the gear that I'd like to buy, but I am providing a life for my children that I never had the opportunity to live as a child, and for that matter; an adult. This is something that I'm actually doing for me, because I take great pride in seeing my children grow into stable and healthy young (teen) adults that are getting to pursue their interests with my support. It's when they begin taking so many things for granted that I feel the things that I've given up to provide all of the extracurricular activities for them.

 

As far as giving myself a chance to live, well, the Post Office pretty well dictates the schedule I live on. Am I forced to stay there, no, I can leave anytime I want. But, responsibility keeps me there because I know that there are bills to pay and that the wage and benefits would not be easily replaced here in the Midwest without a specialized field.

 

I truly think that what is more troublesome to me, is the fact that the American dollar is losing it's credibility, inflation has skyrocked, and job stability in every market has been weakened by the outsourcing of jobs. I don't want this thread to go political, so I'll end it on this.

[LiveMusic]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

Originally posted by Dan South:

At no time in human history have people had so much discretionary time and available leisure activities than in the last few decades.

This is a myth actually. Hunter gatherers worked about 15 hours a week, and spent a good deal of their time at art, music, dancing, sports and social gatherings.

 

And sorry, "stop whining" and "you have a choice how to react to your surroundings" is not going to make the very real problems our society faces, go away. Neither will having more toys, and more channels on the TV, even if we think all that stuff is cool. That's a naive attitude and reflects a lot of denial.

I agree with Lee on this. The pursuit of all is totally unnecessary for survival AND happiness. If all we had to worry about was where to get the next meal, essentially, and how to have the next fun get-together...

[MikeT156]

Great Topic and excellent posts. A lot of what our responsiblities come from choices we've made. There are a LOT of choices that are completely out of our hands though, as Craig mentioned, HEALTH. Health of family members is not something we can control. If we think about the big picture for a moment....we had no control over to what family we were born into, where we were born, what gender we are, etc. We can make lifestyle choices.

 

At one time, my family owned a business that was totally consuming. I worked in that business for YEARS, and just got sick of the rat race, no free time, and no privacy. The funny thing was, when our business was financially successful, other people were envious, and most often you didn't know who your "REAL" friends were.

 

I got fed up with that whole way of life, and decided to play music full time, on the road for several years, even though the best I could do financially was just pay the bills. Even that was difficult at times. But with no wife and family (by choice) I learned to get by without a high mortgage "Brick and mortar" anchor around my ankle for 25 or 30 years, I didn't lust after a BMW, country club memberships, or any other status symbols.

 

Instead, I spent what money I did have on instruments and gear, a van and trailer to haul my "show" around and really enjoyed it while my agent had a contract with a hotel chain. After they chose to go without live entertainment and the contract wasn't renewed, I got a "day job" and tried to play music on weekends for fun and maybe help pay the bills. I bought a new mobile home that is very comfortable for me, and ALMOST large enough for me and my gear. It's paid for, and so is my Jeep. Basically, I'm "low budget". It's a lot less stressful than my "past life" and I'm probably going to live somewhat longer than my parents did. Almost all of their time was spent working, and for the 2nd half of my life, I haven't regretted for ONE MINUTE making the decision to drop out of the rat race, enjoy music, the outdoors, reading, and a few good personal relationships. "Wealth" is not how many numbers you have in your bank account.

 

 

Mike T.

[Jotown]

Yeah, life, and lifestyles seem to be moving faster than ever. But I think that humans who have reached some level of consciousness have always been in the vast minority, and those who have tried to live a more meaningful life have always been freaks, and a bit isolated from other less conscious people.

 

I guess what I am saying is that the more conscious you become, the more isolated you will probably be. If you fill your life with meaning you will hopefully not be doing so in a vacuum, but if you are, at least that space will be filled with purpose and light.

 

I don't think that Hunter S. Thompson was very conscious, or that he felt that his life had much meaning. That is probably why he killed himself.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Jotown:

But I think that humans who have reached some level of consciousness have always been in the vast minority, and those who have tried to live a more meaningful life have always been freaks, and a bit isolated from other less conscious people.

Maybe so, but I still think there are ways for cultures to foster greater awareness OR thwart it. And ours is thwarting it right now, big time.

 

A Native American friend told me about a time when a missionary came to his reservation. They had a gathering of everyone in the village who listened respectfully while the missionary told the story of Jesus.

 

One of the elders of the village then said, "Obviously this man Jesus was a great healer and teacher. And yet, you killed him. Among my people we've had many great healers and teachers - see, we don't kill our healers, we honor them. You say you guys had ONE great healer and you killed him - I dunno about that."

 

I guess what I am saying is that the more conscious you become, the more isolated you will probably be. If you fill your life with meaning you will hopefully not be doing so in a vacuum, but if you are, at least that space will be filled with purpose and light.

Maybe, unless a vital part of what gives your life meaning and purpose is having a shared purpose with others.

 

I don't think that Hunter S. Thompson was very conscious, or that he felt that his life had much meaning. That is probably why he killed himself.

I dunno, I think he was pretty conscious, too much maybe.

[Jotown]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

Originally posted by Jotown:

[qb]But I think that humans who have reached some level of consciousness have always been in the vast minority, and those who have tried to live a more meaningful life have always been freaks, and a bit isolated from other less conscious people.

Maybe so, but I still think there are ways for cultures to foster greater awareness OR thwart it. And ours is thwarting it right now, big time.

 

A Native American friend told me about a time when a missionary came to his reservation. They had a gathering of everyone in the village who listened respectfully while the missionary told the story of Jesus.

 

One of the elders of the village then said, "Obviously this man Jesus was a great healer and teacher. And yet, you killed him. Among my people we've had many great healers and teachers - see, we don't kill our healers, we honor them. You say you guys had ONE great healer and you killed him - I dunno about that."

That is a funny story that I have heard before. I certainly agree with you that there are ways for cultures to foster greater awareness, and that ours is not doing that at this time.

 

Our culture is very unconscious, and predominantly material. Anyone trying to be conscious in our culture is going to at the very least, find themselves in a very small crowd.

 

I guess what I am saying is that the more conscious you become, the more isolated you will probably be. If you fill your life with meaning you will hopefully not be doing so in a vacuum, but if you are, at least that space will be filled with purpose and light.

Maybe, unless a vital part of what gives your life meaning and purpose is having a shared purpose with others.

 

Please note that I said :"If you fill your life with meaning you will hopefully not be doing so in a vacuum"Finding others to with a shared purpose is a great thing, but it doesn't always work out that way.

 

I don't think that Hunter S. Thompson was very conscious, or that he felt that his life had much meaning. That is probably why he killed himself.

I dunno, I think he was pretty conscious, too much maybe.

I disagree. Though I admired and valued his talent, his lifestyle was not that of a very conscious being. Thats how I see it anyway.

[TBush]

If only it were as easy and economically appeasing as to build an addition onto a home. What if the family member happens to be your child of whom you are responsible for their needs? What if your spouse becomes the surviving victim left paralyzed by a car crash where the other driver was uninsured? People that have never had the suffering of major medical bills or the devastation of divorce do not really have a concept as to what others exposed to the turmoils have endured.

 

But we hardly make any attempt at this type of lifestyle change- it dies the death of a thousand qualifications- and endless contingincies. And one doesn't have to directly experience something in order to have an understanding of it, or be empathetic to another's plight.

[Kris]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

Originally posted by Dan South:

At no time in human history have people had so much discretionary time and available leisure activities than in the last few decades.

This is a myth actually. Hunter gatherers worked about 15 hours a week, and spent a good deal of their time at art, music, dancing, sports and social gatherings.

 

And what was the 'hunter/gatherer's' life expectancy?

[Ben One]

As was echoed in this thread a bit earlier, I've just come to realize the amazing number of opportunities for community service in my town--my whole family (and that includes our three boys) really gets a lot out of preparing food for a soup kitchen, or working at a blood drive, or whatever.

 

Oftentimes we fall into the consumer culture thing like many others--but events like these break us out of that, and take us out of ourselves for a while.

 

Although they are a bit harder to notice, the choices for avoiding the rut are there. The community service is making us realize the significant power for change that we all wield as individuals.

 

Ben

[Kendrix]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

Originally posted by Kendrix:

To clarify: The question posed was "are you giving yourself a chance to live?"

Embedded in the question is the assumption that we each have a choice as to whether or not we give ourselves this chance.

 

Of course chosing to react to your surroundings in a positive way wont necessarily change the environment. However, it is way to "give yourself a chance to live" (whatever that may mean to you).

I don't think that was Chip's point though... his point was that he feels alienated by OTHER people's seeming lack of caring whether they have time to contemplate anything or not.

 

No matter how much you might personally try to enjoy life on any given day and make time for that, it's extremely frustrating when no one around you places a very high premium on the things that matter most to you - most especially if the things that matter to you are positive, substantial things.

 

I think Chip was just looking for a little compassion and a sign that somebody out there could relate to what he was saying... and I think he's gotten quite a few responses that are exactly the sort that make him feel alienated.

I find this interesting. There really is something about communicating over the net that seems to result in excessive polarization of discussions.

 

Its totally baffling to me that a message encouraging folks to stay positive in the face of BS going on in the world around us could be interpreted as contributing to alienation. That certainly wasnt where my head was at. I found a way of thinking that helps me manage my negative thoughts - and I was sharing that. That was my (apparently failed)attempt at showing compassion.

 

To me feeding the negative thoughts by piling on to a group bitch session about the ills of the world might not be so helpful. I think THAT might well amplify the alienation factor. It would for me.

 

Depending on the person involved I suspect both views have validity. That seems to make the point about how you can choose to view and react to things.

 

Peace

[Wewus432]

One thing I find very useful when the cacophony of modern life becomes too much...is meditation.

 

If you shut off, even for a moment, the constant dialogue in your mind there is an underlying...something... that thought comes from.

 

If you study religion, this is one of the common threads running through almost EVERY religion, some sort of meditation.

 

Trying to describe the world, or life by thinking about it, is like a dog chasing it's tail. It never ends.

[strat0124]

Sex helps!

[Jimbroni]

Trying to describe the world, or life by thinking about it, is like a dog chasing it's tail. It never ends.

Wise Words Wewus

[miroslav]

Originally posted by Dan South:

At no time in human history have people had so much discretionary time and available leisure activities than in the last few decades. Just think about the channel changer. We didn't need them when we had only three channels on TV. Now some people have HUNDREDS of channels plus ingenius devices that let them pause and time shift programs until the most convenient moment for viewing them.

 

Think about all that we have on demand. Pay per view movies. 24/7 news and weather reports. Endless communications opportunities. You don't have to be in your office to conduct business, anymore. You can "log in" from your home computer, return calls while travelling, and send email from anywhere - even the golf course -with your Blackberry. You can shop for clothes, books, even musical instruments without every leaving the house.

Maybe it's just me...

...but HUNDREDS of cable channels...remote controllers...Pay-Per-View...24/7 news reports etc...

...does it REALLY equate to any kind of advanced/quality living???

 

Those are just little creature comforts that we have grown attached to. But, they don't REALLY make living better...improved...advanced...meaningful.

'Cuz there's people in the back woods that have these same "advances" available to them...and yet they are not living any better now than they were before they had electricity.

 

All that shit, is just surface glitter...superficial trimmings on a tasteless cake that most of the population has been eating ever since the "internet boom" of the 90s began.

 

Sure...some people still find deeper, more cerebral meaning in their daily lives...but most are busy surfin' through their 500 cable channels...

...and even they can't find a whole lot of decent programming to watch!!!

Well...maybe there are a few shows...

...American Idol...Survivor...MTV...etc...

[Chip McDonald]

Originally posted by fantasticsound:

She really had no clue that Rome was a city in Italy, let alone that it was the seat of one of the greatest empires of all civilization.

Which leads me to the point that whoever suggested the school system holds a lot of blame for the situations you decry was, to some degree, correct.

Well, it points to a lack of depth, but not a lack of effectiveness. That's another aspect of "work to live/live to work": there was a time when "college" meant a *diversified* education, and *that* was important in itself. That's no longer the case, it is exclusively meant to get you a job, and no more. Likewise, no one goes to college anymore with any other attitude other than "this is as neccessary as breathing, because I must get the best job possible".

 

We see far too many people on Street Smarts and Jay Leno's street segments who appear

Yeah, I know. My favorite: "How many planets are there in the Solar system?" answer "200 or so?"...

 

state of affairs when I look at news regarding our education system, nationally and locally.

But that presumes an idealistic position on education itself. It's functioning perfectly for what it's intended to do these days: make people adequate workers. Comprehending the world and one's surroundings has nothing to do with it these days, nor does understanding historical references or anything more esoteric. Which, again, it quite alienating. The sensation is that there's all of these well educated people around me, Rat Racers - who have their piece of paper from school, who know calculus, and are totally wired for learning New Job Skills faster than whoever they're competing against at their job, *and that's all they do*. They're fine with that, as long as they get a new SUV now and then, and their cookie-cutter house is being paid for so they can afford to go see a Bruce Willis movie now and then.

 

They're living for their job. All of these people, when they retire, they'll be able to look back on their lives and judge how they did relative to the Modern Ideal; they'll have all of the accouterments, and the landmarks - including their brood, who will grow up to repeat their life the same way. But that, to me, is scary. I know "someone has to do it", but these days the public philosophy is "that is what you do", as in that's *ALL* you can do, should do, or EXPECT to do.

 

Which is alienating.

[Chip McDonald]

Originally posted by Dan South:

I don't know what you mean by "today's time-compressed lifestyle." We are completely in control of how we spend our time.

I didn't say we aren't. That's part of the alienating-factor: people are choosing to be excessively busy... but mostly for vacuous reasons, either material possessions or social status.

 

It's not as though we are forced to live busy lives by government decree. If you are too busy, either slow down or work more efficiently.

Man Dan, you've missed my point entirely! It's not about choice, it's about the philosophy that society now *expects* you to be that way, and if you choose to do things outside that norm, you're "weird".

 

Having said that though, I'm not certain "choice/choose" is the proper word, because what I'm infering is that it is now a process of indoctrination that is making people this way. What's made me say these things is having repeately as of late seen many people who, 10 years ago, would have chosen a radically different path in their life - but today choose what looks *appropriate* for them to do on paper, because of societal pressure.

[Chip McDonald]

Originally posted by Zweite Version:

It is very common in Austria for example, for somebody to pop over unannounced to somebodies house on a bicycle and propose a bike trip on a sunny Sunday aternoon, or a hiking trip, or just a walk along a lake and drink a beer or two at an outside cafe.

Wow. That's *exactly* what I'm talking about! I think that used to happen here in the U.S. at one time - and, what I hinted in another thread, perhaps in the late 60's America was finally getting to that point where the lifestyle would *allow* for that kind of thing to occur... but that is almost kooky for most people to consider here these days. I'm not saying it can't/doesn't happen, but for most people it wouldn't AND they'd consider it an extravagance... AND one that would have to be scheduled and arranged well beforehand, AND something else would have to be "sacrificed"...

 

I've never even seen an outside cafe in the US, except in California, but I'm sure there are some elsewhere.[/qote]

 

It kills me - in the downtown/Bohemian area where I live, some friends run a popular Tex-Mex restaurant that has outdoor tables on the sidewalk... and while they're used now and then, it utterly amazes me that on a nice day people choose to sit INSIDE.

 

Again - I've been with people on one of those rare "we've planned this out so it's ok to go out to eat" deals, and I've been "let's eat outside" - BECAUSE IT WAS AMAZINGLY NICE - and the answer is "why?".

 

If it was advertised on tv properly, "hey people! Let's do the NEW thing! It's called 'dining with nature!"" everyone would do it. Until it became passe, and they wondered what hip thing was occuring that they were missing...

 

stress. My wife's nephew is in so many after school sports activities, I get dizzy just

That's insane! I lose so much business now because all kids are in daycare... wait, I mean "school sports" - until sundown.

 

So it's weird enough that they're spending so much time at school, but it's even stranger that in some cases they spend a 2:1 ratio of time at school in extracurricular activities, relative to learning!

 

 

Worse yet - some of these kids now say things like "well, I'm not really into it, but you've got to show on your transcript that you did something else at school if you want to get into a good college"... what kind of weird thing is that to come out of a 7th grader??? Not only that, but the notion of having to play a sport to show you were "well rounded" to get into a college????

 

 

AHHRGHghgh... I HATE the way things are now, it's so phony, Industrialized-Dystopian, and anti-human. They started this crap a few years before I went to HS... I remember thinking in 7th grade "I have to decide NOW if I'm going to college or not? They want me to decide NOW what my career is going to be?". That's such insanity, and..

 

I'll shut up. I miss humans.

 

'forced' activities for the kids in order to keep them busy and off the video games or TV or

Oh, but like I said, it's a win-win situation: the kids get something written on their transcript that they have to have to get into The Best College Possible, and the parents get to have them out of their hair for awhile. It's Perfect, see?

 

even worse things. What's wrong with the whole family just taking a day trip somewhere, or

That's an ineffective utilization of time! There's more deliberate things that can be done! Besides, there's no TIME!

 

I believe). In Europe people don't have to worry about health insurance, and get 5-6 weeks

Yeah.

 

Health insurance really determines a lot. I lost mine years ago when they started doubling the rates.

 

That said, I think the trend in Europe is definatly going towards the same 'live to work' mindset as here, slowly.

I remember reading about the pre-college exam situation in Japan, about how hard-core they were about getting into a great school and nothing else - and how Orwellian that came off. But now, it's just the same here.

 

And there's really no point discussing it. I know right now there's people reading this thinking "that's ridiculous, it only makes SENSE to do things this way!", the angle I'm thinking about doesn't occur to them at all.