Microtonal - the emperor's (not so) new clothes?

[Paul Harrison]

12 hours ago, stoken6 said:

The tuning on this track is insane. The first phrase - my ears were screaming "that's pitch-corrected!". Of course it's not.

 

The Manhattan Transfer recording is also sublime, but I knew about their awesome talent already.

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

Here's producer Jay Graydon describing how the recording was done:

 

One thing that is easy for the listener to forget when hearing the group sing is that while they make what they do seem easy, the songs are often difficult. Their talent makes it look easy – an example is “A Nightingale Sang In Berkeley Square,” which was arranged by Gene Puerling and won the “Best Vocal Arrangement” Grammy in 1981. Jay says, “One of the most difficult things to do is to get four people to sing in tune with no pitch reference. This song posed such a problem. What we ended up doing was to have the Transfer sing down the song without “punching in” for a “guide track” and without worrying about finite pitch problems as to just have a good feeling guide. They could barely hear this track in the earphones when doing the performances to different tracks and it was used mostly for “phrase starts” and when to take a breath as well as a slight pitch reference. I would then have them sing the song all the way down about 20 times on different tracks and I would keep notes on each line with a grade scale of 1 to 10. 9 and 10 scores are keeper lines. After the 20 performances, I looked at my notes and had the group repair trouble spots by punching in and out on many tracks. After about 8 hours, I had all the necessary elements to ‘combine’ all the performances to one master track. This process took about another 8 hours to ‘bounce’ as to achieve a seamless master track without any noticable ‘punches.’ A day later, the group started the process again for ‘the double.’ This time, they heard the combine much louder in the earphones as to tune up to it. 20 tracks again under the conditions mentioned above. The next day, a few solo vocals were added. The Transfer work very hard to achieve good pitch and feel. This method of ‘no pitch guide’ is rare.” Jay also added “If you try to play piano or whatever along with the track, the pitch center will drift, but very pleasantly,” in what he refers to as “ear candy land.”

 

https://manhattantransfer.net/discography/mecca-for-moderns/

 

Here's a live performance:

 

 

[David Emm]

6 hours ago, Tusker said:

Craig's story reminded me of an altered tuning attempt by a band I am otherwise quite fond of: Deep Forest. I had mixed feelings about this song so I listened to it again.

 ....

I've realized that for a) deviations from tuning norms, need to have a clear artistic purpose and b) it's tricky to find that sweet-spot between meaningless and jarring. Much of this may be culture dependent. It's a lovely song. I am just not sure the altered tunings are doing it any favors.

 

Big DF fan here, too. I recommend Michel Sanchez's solo work "Windows." Its as varied as any DF album while showcasing his particular strengths. He's classically trained and it shows. Its a colorful cross-section including very precise, classy synth flourishes.  

 

I like the tuning variants, because the blend of First World and Third World is impeccable, across their discography. Its not just an affectation. I've especially enjoyed finding some of their "ethnic" instruments in the E-mu Planet Earth, which is a generous tool box of same. Where I hear people drop them in, the main purpose seems to be punctuation, which generally adds to a song's evolution. You wouldn't normally lean on them heavily, but well-placed, I enjoy the hell out 'em. 

 

I also recommend Paul Haslinger's "World Without Rules." Its a tad dark & ambient in places, but also energetic in all the right ways. Its bursting with mysterious ethnic goodness & excellent production values. Check out "Monkey Brain Sushi."

 

[KuruPrionz]

The tempered scale was "created" to make it possible for keyboards of the time (harpsichords and perhaps pipe organs) to be able to in every key, equally out of tune. 

There are lots of variants on the "correct" scale, depending on the music being played. Real blues has lots of micro-tonal inflections. Listen to the vocals or guitar, especially slide guitar. Authentic blues can include a piano as a backup instrument only, the vocals can carry the micro-tones. 

 

The Oud from the Middle East is fretless so the music of that area can be played properly. The same is true of the Sarod from India. The Sitar, also from India, has movable frets so that the Ragas can be played correctly. The frets are also elevated well above the neck, allowing an easy of stretching strings that is more efficient than a modern guitar. 

 

I know this is Keyboard Corner but once the subject goes to scales we have many to consider. This is a big world!!! I left out African music, and Native American flute. Neither originally had tempered scales and many variants still do not. 

 

[AROIOS]

On 12/29/2023 at 6:59 AM, CyberGene said:

I’ve grown up in the Seventh-Day Adventist Church and although I’m not religious and abandoned it as a grown-up, I remember these guys and how they were held in a very high regard in the church (they are SDA members). Singing like this can make me religious! 😀 It’s simply divine, no other explanation!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RZDstjqSmPQ

 

 

Unfortunately the above live video cannot be embedded. Here’s the studio version:

 

 

Been a big fan since the 90s. For me, pretty much all the appeal of Jacob Collier came from the Gospel Jazz influence Take6 had on him.

[AROIOS]

On 12/29/2023 at 1:58 PM, CyberGene said:

...With the above in mind, I’m not sure what microtonal really tries to accomplish. A harmonic (interval) purity, or melodic moods. The harpsichord example I started with, plays jazz (highly harmonic music) with some pretty drastic interval offsets (compared to ET) and is IMO just serving no purpose, it’s just an attempt at originality for the sake of originality.

 

 

And the barbershop/string quartets are the opposite, where a careful on-the-fly adjustment is made with the sole intent of reducing overtone beats. It’s not like they chose just intonation for the sake of it, nor it is fixed throughout and constant in regard to specific note pivot.

 

In summary, one needs to think of what they are trying to solve/achieve. Blindly jumping into some microtonal intervals and exotic tunings, just because ET is “boring” is IMO silly. YMMV 🙂

I think you nailed it. TET makes it easy to transpose, JI removes pulsation. One is not inherently more "pure/just/correct" than the other.

[Tusker]

On 12/29/2023 at 4:58 PM, CyberGene said:

The maqams are meant to be used in a predominantly melodic way, with no underlying harmony, which is why the given note “detuning” (from ET point of view) is not chosen to make for pure intervals or chords but rather to produce certain mood which is utilized by the specific melodies.

 

That’s why mixing ET and Maqams as in the example above is jarring. At least to me too. 
 

Western intonations, such as e.g. Just intonation or the various historic Well temperaments try to solve different problems and the offset from the ideal math-based ET is much smaller (e.g. a few cents) compared to just splitting the semitone into a half, or even smaller intervals.

 

With the above in mind, I’m not sure what microtonal really tries to accomplish. A harmonic (interval) purity, or melodic moods. The harpsichord example I started with, plays jazz (highly harmonic music) with some pretty drastic interval offsets (compared to ET) and is IMO just serving no purpose, it’s just an attempt at originality for the sake of originality.

 

 

Thanks for bringing the Turkic / Western European musical border into the conversation. It's a fascinating world and I agree the main fault lines are around choral+satb tuning schemes versus solo+drone tuning schemes. The latter allows more elaboration of pitch due to simpler texture. This is also illustrated by Craig's point about Indian scales which can afford to be more ornate.

 

The history of central Europe is fascinating to me in these turbulent times as cultures rediscover old fault lines. I am intrigued by how tightly the musics dovetail with Islamic, Orthodox and Catholic faith traditions. It's interesting to see Turkic influences in the "Polovtsian Dances" which are performed for Prince Igor when he is an honored captive of the Cuman peoples. Composer Borodin stays conservatively within the "western" tuning scheme however, providing just enough exoticism for his Russian listeners to  create a "world music" of his time. 😅 

 

Rimsky Korsakov's "Song of India" employs a similarly conservative exoticism. The Mighty Five composers of St. Petersburg appear to have held a similar rule: don't mess with pitch and you too can be successful he ha. 😄