Online collaborations: Protocols and processes?

[Tusker]

Just wondering if you have had some productive online collaborations? Did you know it was going to work out? How?

 

I am wondering what to do. I ran into some guys online who have a "prog" "funk" set of tunes they need keys for. One of the tunes was pretty interesting so I sent in some synth lines as a kind of garnish (playing in thirds with the guitar mostly). They responded with "very nice, more keyboards please." Then they start to describe some places they could "hear" some keyboards, along with their ideal that the keyboards should feel like they are fully integrated with the band.

 

At this point, I kinda agree that it would be  nice to have more keys, but they already had a pretty full tune. To quote the movie Amadeus, 'too many notes!" There isn't a lot of room for keys. Also I don't know to what degree I am to be a kind of order taker and give them what they think they want or am I to be an artiste and follow my muse. In the real world, you can jam together and see if you hit it off but here it's difficult to know where you stand.

 

I am leaning towards the artiste and the "take it or leave it" attitude, but I am afraid I may be over-reacting. In a theoretical world, brainstorming would be about respecting each and every idea and giving it a shot right? Their ideas are valuable, but I don't feel up to telling them how to change their parts to make it easier for me either, lol. Any advice? 

[stoken6]

One viewpoint is that they may hand over the raw tracks to a mix engineer (who is not a band member) who may well cut/mute many of the tracks. Yours or others. So give the mixer plenty of material to choose from.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[jazzpiano88]

One way to think about this is that you’re a session player and the guys asking you for parts are the producer or band.  
If this is the way it is, I’d do what they request since it’s their project.  
 

On the other hand, if they are treating you as a creative equal and part of the band, then I think you have a right to be more particular and have a say about what you provide.  Since you don’t know the exact nature of the final production, I would be inclined to do what they ask and reserve the right to ixnay your tracks if the final result isn’t up to your standards.  

[Stokely]

Agreed with JazzPiano88's post above. 

 

I feel things work the best with one "boss" aka a producer.   Someone has to make the call and move things along, assuming they actually do and don't keep meddling forever with things. 

That said, when I did a long-term album project with an old friend (played in bands with him when we were teens into college years) it also can be frustrating.  In particular, when you are asked to do solos (which aren't my bag) and they just don't meet expectations.   I got a few borderline annoying comments like "I'm hoping you'll be inspired more, try again!'....hell, I felt I *was* inspired, he just didn't like my solo because he had something else in mind.   When a producer has something kind of set in mind but they are also trying not to dictate the parts (to let the players create), it can be frustrating--just watch the making of Peg for this on a pro level, with Fagen/Brecker bringing in multiple session guitarists until they found a part they liked   

In short, with multiple creative visions sometimes they collide and the reality was I had to let some really nice parts (to me) fall by the wayside and reluctantly "try again"...sometimes ending up with something I personally didn't like nearly as much, but my friend did.

 

[Tusker]

This is good advice. Yes, in their minds I might be somewhere between a "session player" and a "future member." I am not being paid however. I am inclined to provide this round of edits without reservation, but I'll keep an eye on the request list to make sure it doesn't get too lengthy. I imagine at some point I may have to squeak up politely 🙋‍♂️ to indicate that there isn't an infinite number of changes available. We haven't got a point of boredom on my part yet which is good. Their suggestions have been thoughtful.

 

Relationship = "it's complicated". 😅

 

Thanks!

 

 

8 hours ago, stoken6 said:

One viewpoint is that they may hand over the raw tracks to a mix engineer (who is not a band member) who may well cut/mute many of the tracks. Yours or others. So give the mixer plenty of material to choose from.

 

Yes I expect that when we finish, they will need stems and take the mix from there. I am doing very little mixing on my submissions. Just enough to sit the keys in the mix. 

[Docbop]

1 hour ago, Tusker said:

Yes, in their minds I might be somewhere between a "session player" and a "future member." I am not being paid however.

If me that is something I would want the answer to, am I just a hired gun or do you see me as part of the group now.  If just a hired gun then decision do I ask for some money or is it a fun project and  I'll do it till it isn't fun anymore.    If they say part of the group then time to have them explain the roles the different members play and how much of a say you have and how things get decided. So who's Paul and are you just Noel Redding. 

[KuruPrionz]

On 4/4/2023 at 4:27 AM, Tusker said:

Just wondering if you have had some productive online collaborations? Did you know it was going to work out? How?

 

At this point, I kinda agree that it would be  nice to have more keys, but they already had a pretty full tune. To quote the movie Amadeus, 'too many notes!" There isn't a lot of room for keys.

I feel like some of the songs I worked on for Metapop contests were productive for me. That's because I was mixing them and felt like I could add or subtract (mostly subtract) anything I wanted just because I felt like it. 

 

I underlined your quote because this is usually the problem with most attempts. Far too many "artists" simply fail to understand the tremendous value and power of silence. They want to fill up all available space with the "cool licks they know" and that gets messy quickly. 

 

You may have found somebody but it doesn't sound like your search is over. 

[Tusker]

53 minutes ago, KuruPrionz said:

I underlined your quote because this is usually the problem with most attempts. Far too many "artists" simply fail to understand the tremendous value and power of silence. They want to fill up all available space with the "cool licks they know" and that gets messy quickly. 

 

Yes Kuru. You put your finger on it.  

 

Also this is prog, so it could be that they are used to a busier aesthetic than I am. I had an experience a few years ago where I was trying to "chill down" portions of a prog-metal track for a guitarist who didn't want that emotional arc. What I thought was a "chill moment" was interpreted as lacking in energy. It could be that this time, I'll amp the whole thing up which seems to be what they value. I can always back it down in a later version. Cue those 32nd notes lol ....

[KuruPrionz]

2 hours ago, Tusker said:

Yes Kuru. You put your finger on it.  

 

Also this is prog, so it could be that they are used to a busier aesthetic than I am. I had an experience a few years ago where I was trying to "chill down" portions of a prog-metal track for a guitarist who didn't want that emotional arc. What I thought was a "chill moment" was interpreted as lacking in energy. It could be that this time, I'll amp the whole thing up which seems to be what they value. I can always back it down in a later version. Cue those 32nd notes lol ....

Music is Art and Art is tension and release. It's hard to build either if there is a constant ruckus ensuing. 

I've certainly been in my share of busy bands.

 

Others figure it out, The Who comes to mind. Entwhistle was the "lead bassist" and Moon was a maniacal but fantastic drummer. So Pete would often just leave lots of space in his guitar parts and they didn't add pile in too much stuff. 

Not everybody gets that unfortunately. 

 

Currently I'm working on a solo vocal/guitar thing and leaving space in that is easy. I'm liking it so far...