The “Any Five” or “Any Ten” subscription model …

[Sundown]

Hey all,

 

Very clearly the plugin and software industries are moving toward subscription. The recent turnabout with Waves was interesting (they instituted it and then quickly pivoted to a dual path of perpetual and subscription licenses). But clearly they viewed subscription as a favorable business model.

 

There are definitely things I like about the subscription model. If you really dig a companies products you can get *a lot* of content for $20-25/month. If (for example) Universal Audio moves their full catalog to the native platform (and holds pricing fairly), that would be far less than I spend annually on a couple of new perpetual licenses. Given how much I use their products, that would be a win for me.

 

The problem comes when I only like some of a company’s products, or only need some of a company’s products. Steven Slate has a wide variety of plugins and some of them are very appealing to me. But I don’t really need another 1176 emulation. I don’t even want the distraction.

 

So I thought of an interesting compromise:  Instead of offering the full catalog or a two-step plan, why not offering a “Grab any Five” plan? Then you could pick the plugins you really want/need for a lower price. You could also offer an incremental cost for each additional plugin, up to the point that buying the full catalog makes more sense.

 

I don’t know in practice if it would work on the business side. If (for example) a Waves customer picks five high-end reverb plugins, those plugins probably required a lot more R&D and work than a compressor plugin that was made a long time ago for less man hours.

 

For the customer, it’s a better trade-off than the two or three-tier strategy that many companies offer, where invariably the plugins you really want are only in the highest priced bundle.

 

Thoughts?

 

Todd

 

 

[KuruPrionz]

I'm planning on transitioning to using only the plugins provided with Mac OS and the ones that come with Waveform (my current DAW).

I'm considering trying Logic, Apple incudes plugins that aren't included in Mac OS. 

 

I don't really need much and I have way too many right now. I might miss some things a bit but I'll get over it. I used to get a lot done on a 4 track cassette deck with one Delta Tron delay unit. 

[Stokely]

I'll use subscription when I have no other choice.   As more and more companies go it it--if they do--I'll find alternatives until there are no alternatives.  I presume I'll still be able to use non-subscription plugins for a time at least even if 100% of the companies do this, so it's not really a worry I have just yet.
I doubt smaller companies like Tokyo Dawn Labs--who make some excellent products--will be going to subscription any time soon.   I'd think the bigger "suite" companies would be the ones to do it, so I just wouldn't buy their stuff.

The only plugins I have--or had--my eye on are those in a Komplete upgrade, if I do it.   Despite what I wrote above, just thinking about subscription and the chances that Native Instruments may go subscription has me re-thinking this purchase.   There have been rumors for years about them and of all the companies out there to try it,  it would be unsurprising if they do it.

Logic has a lot of nice stock plugins, which of course hasn't stopped me from getting sucked into holiday sales each year.  This past year I was very well disciplined and bought almost nothing  

[Notes_Norton]

I avoid subscriptions whenever possible.

 

I play music to make a living, I buy what I need, and don't pay for what I don't need. How many hours a year do I have to gig by having to pay a monthly subscription fee?

 

Expenses reduce profits in a business. I am not opposed to buying good gear, but I also look for value and dependability.

 

I have thousands of sounds in a half dozen synth modules. Some are as old as the 1980s and haven't cost anything but an occasional battery replacement since then. Some are 21st century models. I have thousands of sounds that are paid for, and should crank out quality sounds for years, without me spending another penny.

 

So if I can do it without a subscription, that's how I'll do it.

 

Of course, YMMV

[RABid]

There are companies like Plugin Alliance that have systems close to this. A monthly or yearly subscription that gives you access to a large selection, then at the end of the year you get to pick a pre-determined number of plugins to call your own. It is a nice system but it is getting a bit complicated. I am grandfathered in on the Mix&Master system. $15 a month gives me access to a large bundle of plugins to use on up to three systems. At the end of a year I get a voucher for any six plugins that are in that bundle. I choose the plugins that I want and they are mine. I can cancel and keep those six, or go another year and get another voucher. That bundle is no longer available. They have changed the price structure and now $15 a month only gets you 3 plugins a year. $25 a month gets you six, and $30 a month gets you 10. But there is a catch to being grandfathered in on the old system with much better rewards. New plugins are not added to the old system. If I want the new plugins I have to convert to the newer, more expensive plan or buy them outright. My year is up in July and I will decide then if I want to go another year. This is a good system for the customer if you work it. You have to pay attention to what plugins are offered in big sales, and which plugins are seldom on sale. With a year I am paying $30 a plugin. A good price for some plugins, not so good for others. If something I really like is on sale for a cheap price I am better off getting it while it is on sale, even if it is included in my subscription, because I don't play to subscribe forever.

[bill5]

To me renting plugins is like renting food. No I don't think so. To each their own but I pay for something once and I will never do this. With rare exception, one of the dumbest ideas ever IMO and I (probably naively) cling to the hope that it's a passing fad which will pass because people will say "f that" and the market simply won't be there. 

[Notes_Norton]

10 hours ago, bill5 said:

To me renting plugins is like renting food

• Or leasing a car.
• Renting the furniture in my house.
• Leasing household appliances like my stove, refrigerator, or microwave oven.
• Renting my saxophone, guitar, amps, or PA system
• Leasing the computers that I use every day
• Renting the sound modules that have given me good service since the 1980s for the oldest ones and the 2000s for the newest ones
• Leasing the trees and other plants in my yard

I could go on, but you get the idea.

 

10 hours ago, bill5 said:

I (probably naively) cling to the hope that it's a passing fad which will pass because people will say "f that" and the market simply won't be there. 

 

That makes at least two of us.

 

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

[Sundown]

1 hour ago, Notes_Norton said:

• Or leasing a car.
• Renting the furniture in my house.
• Leasing household appliances like my stove, refrigerator, or microwave oven.
• Renting my saxophone, guitar, amps, or PA system
• Leasing the computers that I use every day
• Renting the sound modules that have given me good service since the 1980s for the oldest ones and the 2000s for the newest ones
• Leasing the trees and other plants in my yard

I could go on, but you get the idea.

 

 

That makes at least two of us.

 

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

 

Well, Devil’s advocate, it’s not quite like renting furniture or leasing a car, if the plugin manufacturer upholds their end of the bargain and continually makes updates/improvements or adds more plugins to the collection. That would be like renting furniture that periodically gets upgraded (or multiplies) over time.

 

But it’s all contingent on the manufacturer actually doing that …

 

But you’re right, to each his own.

 

Todd

[Notes_Norton]

On 4/8/2023 at 11:43 AM, Sundown said:

 

Well, Devil’s advocate, it’s not quite like renting furniture or leasing a car, if the plugin manufacturer upholds their end of the bargain and continually makes updates/improvements or adds more plugins to the collection. That would be like renting furniture that periodically gets upgraded (or multiplies) over time.

 

But it’s all contingent on the manufacturer actually doing that …

 

But you’re right, to each his own.

 

Todd

Fair enough.

 

But what about when the plugin manufacturer goes out of business, and the OS updates, rendering the plugin useless?

 

I learned a lesson in the early days of MIDI. I used a sequencer that stored my backing tracks in a proprietary format. This was before Standard MIDI File format was invented.

 

Meanwhile, SMF was adopted, and I was still using the old sequencer, thinking nothing of it, until it broke. Approximately 300 songs painfully sequenced were gone. Days and nights were spent re-sequencing all the necessary songs to keep gigging. Fortunately the sequencer broke at the end of the last gig of the week, during the off-season, and I had 4 days to get up enough tunes for the next gig. All I did was eat, sleep, and sequence.

 

I've had a fair number of apps that no longer work, some musical, some others since I started with the AtariST, Microsoft DOS/Win3.1 and Mac OS6. And I've had files that worked in those apps also rendered useless. The first ones that died were DOS apps that didn't make the cut to Windows.  I don't think anything that worked on a computer in the late 1980s still works today.

 

My 1980s Yamaha TX81z and Roland MT-32 (my two oldest sound modules) have never needed an update. They work as good as the day I bought them. The TX81z even better as people have written better patches, and offered them for sale, at a one-time price. Same for my Yamaha VL70m synthesizer. I guess you can call those updates, and they may cost an initial fee, but even at a dollar a month subscription, I would have spent more on the subscription than the patches.

 

Some of the sounds on the TX and MT are definitely dated, but we play music from the 1980s as well as the 2000s. Plus some great sounds from these modules, that are undoubtedly still relevant today, are no longer available.

 

The Mid-1990s VL70m has a version of Physical Modeling Sequencing that has yet to be realized by any plug-in, according to the folks who use both. The tone changes with volume and pitch bend (vibrato) just as an acoustic instrument does. It can reproduce the throat growl and flutter tongue of a sax, the lip slurs of a trumpet or trombone, and more. When using my wind MIDI controller, it feels like I am playing an acoustic instrument, instead of controlling a synth. I've tried toe software synths from other wind controller enthusiasts that I know, and nothing comes even close.

 

I play music for a living. That means I want dependable gear, with standard file protocol, that preferably does not depend on a potential computer OS or CPU brand change to keep working. As long as MIDI itself doesn't lose backwards compatibility (which I doubt will happen soon) I'm good to go. My old gear still works, and my new gear doesn't replace the old, but simply adds to my sonic choices.

 

Of course, there is more than one right way to make music. So far, my way is the best for me, it fits the needs for me to continue to make a living doing music, and nothing but music. For someone else, it might not be the best way.

 

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

[Sundown]

2 hours ago, Notes_Norton said:

Fair enough.

 

But what about when the plugin manufacturer goes out of business, and the OS updates, rendering the plugin useless?

 

 

That’s definitely a risk with some … I’ve had plugin manufacturers/software providers who really stand behind their product and continue to improve it (e.g. Korg, Waves, UAD), and some others that have not. To be fair, the “nots” were not subscriptions, but single/perpetual licenses. 

 

Todd

[Joe Muscara]

If I missed this in any post above, my apologies.

 

One advantage of the subscription model might be that you only pay for the plug-in when you need it. Say you work on your album from January to April, you pay the subscription for four months, then you let it lapse for the rest of the year or until you start a new project. As long as you haven't been grandfathered in with a lower price you want to keep, coming and going as you please could work well if you don't use the plug-ins around the year. People do this with streaming TV services all the time. I only subscribe to Sling when the NCAA tournament is going on, then I cancel, so I only pay for one month a year.

[Notes_Norton]

I gig for a living, and I constantly learn new songs. I make my own backing tracks so I would need the plug-in all the time.

 

Gigging for a living makes me evaluate every purchase. Will it help me make money better than the alternatives? Conversely, will it cost me more money than the alternatives? Will I be able to use it for as long as it is useful to me? I want to sound the best that I can, but must balance that with the cost.

 

Anything that is a monthly expense takes away from our profits. If it's necessary, fine, if there is a good alternative that I can buy once and own, that's better.

 

We get the best we can until it gets to our point of diminishing returns. Example: Instead of a Sure SM58 mic for $100, I use a Sennheiser MD421 for $400 because it sounds better—but not a Sennheiser MD441 at $1,000 because it doesn't make my voice or sax sound better enough to warrant the price.

 

I don't live a life of luxury. I buy new cars but drive them until they are no longer dependable. Minivans (for my gear) usually in the Dodge price class. I don't have jewelry, or a guitar collection, or luxury items. I do have a small, comfortable, paid-off home in a very good neighborhood. No kids, but we do go on International Vacations almost every year. We both value experiences more than posessions.

 

But what I have the most is this:

• I live life on my own terms,
• I get to do music and nothing but music to make a living,
• I have a wife who does music and nothing but music with me,
• She's my bandmate, best friend. She started that way and eventually became my wife
• We are our own bosses, not wage slaves to some faceless corporation
• Nobody tells us what to do, we do what we want, learn from our mistakes, and profit from our good calls
• We don't wake up to an alarm, and commute to work 5 days a week for that daily grind
• Instead of saying "I have to go to work today" we say, "I GET to go to work today!"

Most of all, we thoroughly enjoy our work, it's the most fun we can have with our clothes on. We'd rather gig that do almost anything else.

 

Life is short, and we spend both our working and play time enjoying ourselves. IMO that's priceless.

 

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

[Nathanael_I]

Plugin subscription?  No, not presently.  Did the Slate one for a while, but I only consistently used a few that I already owned.  So I let the subscription go - it hasn't been missed. 

 

DAW?  Yes.  I subscribe to ProTools.  Nuendo has an annual update that I buy every year (so it's practically a subscription).  Every Dorico release is purchased immediately.  These three are the most critical software in the studio.  I want these functions to be stable, fast, multi-core optimized, and running on the latest OS.  The truth is that modern SW on modern OS on modern HW is a wonderful experience.  These have excellent stock plugins that get better regularly.  They are the core.  I've posed elsewhere on the few other things I use. 

 

The real issue is limiting choice to what can be mastered.  I don't want a zillion plugins in my folders.  Also, I don't find that the additions I might want to make all come from the same place.  In fact, it is very unlikely that would be the case.  That said, I have several things from Flux and Tone Projects - but they are all owned. 

 

Ultimately, software has to be used regularly to be worth anything at all.  Digital rot is real.  Obsolescence is real.  Digital tools expire in a way that a physical instrument just doesn't.  Digital hardware like a digital mixer is less like software - but still, all electronics age differently than a piano....

 

 

[Notes_Norton]

I have a 1925 King alto sax, that still plays, can still be serviced, and has the voice of an angel. In two years, it will be 100 years old.

 

I have my father's violin that he played in school (and after). I can't play it, but I won't part with it. It still plays and can be serviced.

 

My 1970 Gibson ES330 guitar still works fine and can still be serviced.

 

The version of Master Tracks Pro I bought for my Mac OS-6 in the late 1980s will not work anymore. Anything from that era to the recent past (Apple has an upgrade or die policy).

 

I prefer to own rather than rent, and since my first experience with a sequencer going belly-up, I stay away from the cutting edge of software, and any app that doesn't use standard, established file formats. I've gone Windows because it has a better record of backwards compatibility.

 

Dependability and the ability to have long-term usage are important when your income depends on it.

 

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

[Nathanael_I]

15 hours ago, Notes_Norton said:

Dependability and the ability to have long-term usage are important when your income depends on it.

 

The interesting thing for this discussion is when software is part of what you depend on. In that instance, the increased durability of a physical thing is no longer relevant. Software must be had. Its limitations accepted. 
 

in this world, the software that truly falls into the “must have” category for me,  I am perfectly fine with subscription. I want to be on the most supported, most relevant version.  This is the safest place to be once you know how software is developed. Current HW, current OS, current SW (though I usually wait until first bug fix version after major releases). 

 

archiving digital content is a separate issue. I don’t expect the software to last forever. Anything important needs to be in notation (PDF and paper), or WAV files. DAW files are not archival quality. Softsynths come and go. WAV files are stable. 
 

Storage is cheap and the cloud is easy. Archival is possible via the now very flexible output/bounce facilities in any DAW. 
 

Vehicles depreciate. So does software, effectively. But both are long term valuable. There’s no software equivalent of your sax, but there’s also no hardware equivalent of a modern DAW. 

Music production involves software to a degree that live performance in many genres does not. But anybody running tracks or interactive Ableton sets probably thinks of that software as being as important as any of our physical instruments. 
 

when I realized I use a computer more hours than I sleep, I also realized that having the best one was an easy investment in my productivity. One of the best uses of money I could make. My computers have made much money.   But they are all 5-7 year devices. Permanence is not always the main determinant of value for me. 

 

[KuruPrionz]

1 hour ago, Nathanael_I said:

The interesting thing for this discussion is when software is part of what you depend on. In that instance, the increased durability of a physical thing is no longer relevant. Software must be had. Its limitations accepted. 

Vehicles depreciate. So does software, effectively. But both are long term valuable. There’s no hardware equivalent of your sax, but there’s also no hardware equivalent of a modern DAW. 
Permanence is not always the main determinant of value for me. 

There is no question that a saxophone will require maintenance. It might be 100 years old but the pads are surely younger. 

I knew the owners of expensive tape recorders and they were always needing maintenance, plus tape is not free. 

Amps? Speakers blow, capacitors go "south", there is no end to it. You may get a bug and not be able to sing. I fell once and damaged the little finger on my left hand, wasn't sure at that point if I could play guitar well again but I kept going back to Django Reinhardt. I'm getting around pretty well on the fretboard. 

I LOVE recording digitally and modern manufacturing has made it possible for me to own a couple of amazing microphones and a good pair of speakers. 

I've updated my DAW as the improvements come and will continue to do so. The idea of staying in one place doesn't work for me, too many things get better!

Efficiency has value too!!!!

[Notes_Norton]

The sax definitely needs maintenance. Pads, sometimes springs, and so on. The point is it can be maintained. Nobody is going to say, "I'm sorry, that sax won't work with modern reeds."

 

A lot of the software I had on the old Mac and Windows computers cannot be maintained, it's orphaned, obsolete and won't work on new computers.

 

I do agree with Nathanael_I about archiving. Storage is cheap, I have my own cloud storage at my website host. I do save everything in standard file formats, WAV, pdf, txt, MID, rtf, jpg, tif, and so on.

 

Softsynths come and go, so I prefer hardware synths. No, they aren't bullet-proof, but those I bought in the 1980s still work (with new batteries). I also have duplicates stored off-site at a relative's house who knows how to turn them on and check them out every once in a while. Because I play live for a living, having the same synth sounds with the same volume and other attributes are more important than a stable DAW. I get along fine with any DAW that has a good MIDI sequencer built in.

 

If a software synth goes belly up, I can still play the song with a newer one. However, the patch won't sound the same, won't play at the same volume, and might not react to pitch bend, and continuous controllers the same way.

 

My stage computers do not update—period. There is no need for that. Once set up and stable, they never go back on the Internet.

 

On stage, they only need to do two things, (1) play my backing tracks (2) display lyrics and/or music notation.

 

I strip all non-essential software from the machine, use Windows Media Player to play the mp3 files, Word Pad to display the rtf files, and IfranView to read the tif files (music charts). Other than IfranView, they are built-in MS apps, so I have stability.

 

In fact, last year I retired a Windows XP computer (ThinkPad) that I put in service over 20 years ago. It still works, but I wanted one with a backlit keyboard for playing on dark stages.

 

Playing live for a living has different requirements from playing in a studio or being a hobbyist musician. Subscriptions, unless absolutely necessary (no good alternative) don't fit into my requirements. YMMV

 

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

[KuruPrionz]

1 hour ago, Notes_Norton said:

The sax definitely needs maintenance. Pads, sometimes springs, and so on. The point is it can be maintained. Nobody is going to say, "I'm sorry, that sax won't work with modern reeds."

 

A lot of the software I had on the old Mac and Windows computers cannot be maintained, it's orphaned, obsolete and won't work on new computers.

 

 

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

All valid points, great post overall! 

Yes, we live in different worlds. FWIW I have well over 2,000 gigs behind me and I bring a minimum of required gear like mic stand, mic, guitar amp, cords, guitar, etc. 

I do have a foot in both worlds but no computers on stage ever. 

[Notes_Norton]

9 hours ago, KuruPrionz said:

I do have a foot in both worlds but no computers on stage ever. 

I've been gigging for decades, and there is no way I can count how many thousands of days.

 

I've done a fair amount of recording, from local studios to Motown in Detroit (when Motown was in Detroit), but I've always been on the side of the glass with the microphones, not the console.

 

What I do best is play music. I've played in classical music orchestras, 7-piece bands down to duos gigging in bars, concert halls, cruise ships, private parties, restaurants, show clubs, living rooms, and in every state east of the Mississippi and a number west of that river too. From dives to being the opening act to the headliners in concert, there aren't many kinds of venues I haven't played. I even gigged in China once.

 

In the old days, I brought a tenor sax to work. That was all that was required. The guitarists and bass players had their amps, and we used the house PA system. But times changed, technology advances, bands downsize, and little by little we added more gear.

 

After having severe personnel problems, resulting in being out of work for 3 months in one year, the future Mrs. Notes and I decided to go duo.

 

At first, I would make our backing tracks, recording into a Teac A3440 4 channel reel-to-reel 1/4" tape deck. Since I play drums, bass, and at that time some rhythm guitar I can do this myself. I mixed to cassette, and Mrs. Notes and I played and sang live over the tapes. Then digital arrived, and I fed disks into a sequencer which fed a 10 space rack of sound modules. Fast-forward to today, and I make hi-res MP3 files and play them on stave with a laptop. I have a second laptop with either words and/or music on it. I have over 600 songs now, and I can't memorize them all. If one laptop fails, I can do both tasks on one, the main reason for two is redundancy. I use nothing but ThinkPads because they have proved to be ultra-reliable.

 

Since Mrs. Notes and I became a self-contained duo back in 1985, and until COVID reared its ugly spikes, we were never out of work, and had to block out vacation weeks or we would not get a vacation. Now we are back in the swing with 15-20 gigs per month.

 

The duo's compromise is that the drums, bass, and comp parts are all me. The rhythm section is never-changing, and since the input is all mine, there are none of those surprises you get with someone else's ides. We both sing lead vocals (Mrs. Notes is much better). She plays rhythm guitar or synthesizer, and I play sax, wind synth, flute, or lead guitar over our tracks. I used to also bring a keyboard, but I eventually put the keyboard parts on the tracks – too much to carry.

 

But the duo's benefits are we keep all the money, and a small band pays more per-person than a bigger one, because the purchasers' budgets don't go up proportionally with the number of musicians. We both have strong work ethics, think nothing of skipping breaks, learn what the people want to hear, pace the crowd by playing what they want and when they need it, are easy to work with, show up on time, show up prepared, and give the entertainment purchaser a good service for the money he/she pays.

 

We arrive early, and leave at least a half hour troubleshooting time in case something breaks (it's usually a cable). I carry spares enough to limp through a gig one way or another.

 

I am a "the show MUST go on" person, and so is Mrs. Notes, and not using subscriptions or bleeding edge technology is important for that.

 

But all our needs vary.

 

Notes ♫

[bill5]

  

10 hours ago, Notes_Norton said:

Playing live for a living has different requirements from playing in a studio or being a hobbyist musician.

Absolutely, I was just thinking that as I was reading through the thread. If my main thing was gigging, I wouldn't want to have to fiddle with a PC or "device," fire up a DAW, etc even if it was better. I'd want to just plug in, power it up, and go. 

 

But for the studio (professional or hobbyist), IMO "in the box" is a no-brainer for most keyboardists at least, unless all you want to do is what you can with your given hard synth or other hardware, which is fine...but soft synths and VIs offer soooooo much more versatility and ability. And authentic-sounding instruments; hardware synths back when didn't emulate other instruments very well for the most part (like guitar, sax, strings, etc), even now I think they're a mixed bag, but VIs have gotten so good now that even pros can have a hard time telling the diff. 

[Notes_Norton]

It's wonderful how technology has improved since the early days of home digital.

 

I am in the process of redoing a lot of my early backing track in between learning new songs.

 

Some of the older synth sounds are keepers, but others can be vastly improved by newer sounds. Not only for the tone, but for the ability to use the continuous controllers for more expression. For me, expression trumps tone any day of the week.

 

While I'm happy with what I'm using now, I keep my eyes open for new things that will make things better for me. Then I'll wait until they are off the bleeding edge, and re-evaluate.

 

When I think about the early days when I made backing tracks with a 1/4" four channel reel-to-reel deck, I'm amazed that so much has come along in such a relatively short amount of time.

 

Notes ♫

[zeronyne]

There are many situations where leasing and subscriptions make sense, but I'm trying to sort that out for myself right now.

I have an Adobe subscription because I really need Photoshop, Illustrator, and AfterEffects all the time, but I need the rest of their suite on occasion.

I have subscriptions to Figma and Miro because they are my daily drivers and they don't offer any other options.

 

But for music, I've resisted the Reason+ subscription because I can go a month or two without using it, but that may also be poor logic on my part if I amortize the one-off update price.

 

Ownership of software is not that important to me because I upgrade computers faster than I upgrade software, and sometimes a platform change will completely change my workflow. And I've certainly been burned buying software instruments that are no longer supported.

 

As I said, I really need to do the math to see what the breakpoints are between purchase and subscription for my use cases.

[Anderton]

On 4/14/2023 at 10:02 AM, zeronyne said:

Ownership of software is not that important to me because I upgrade computers faster than I upgrade software, and sometimes a platform change will completely change my workflow. And I've certainly been burned buying software instruments that are no longer supported.

 

As I said, I really need to do the math to see what the breakpoints are between purchase and subscription for my use cases.

 

If people feel that a subscription keeps their software up to date, forestalls obsolescence, and adds enhancements on a regular basis, then it makes sense to subscribe rather than wait until version XX comes out that handles the latest weirdness from Apple and Microsoft.