If you walked into a high-end Mastering studio, what kind of headphones would you find?

[Sundown]

Hey all,

 

I primarily record with headphones (I’m a keyboard player), and I mix on near fields in a fairly large treated room.

 

Speakers give me the best stereo image, the best bottom end, and they are perhaps the harshest critic of music. If it doesn’t sound good on my monitors, it isn’t going to sound good elsewhere.

 

Headphones are great for hearing small details and imperfections that would be difficult to catch on speakers. They’re also good for a secondary reference. 

 

The headphones I have are decent for the sub $200 category (KRK KNS 8400’s). They’re better than the Audio Tecnnicas I replaced.

 

But you can spend a small fortune on headphones … A pair of high-end Grados or Sennheisers can set you back a grand or two. Sony has some high-end offerings as well.

 

So if you walked into a high-end Mastering studio (or a high-end recording studio), what are you likely to find? What do the most discerning engineers use when listening to headphones?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Todd

 

[KuruPrionz]

I don't know but I bet if you get your free subscription to Tape Op magazine and then post the question in the letters to the editor, you'll get some interesting answers. 

 

https://tapeop.com

 

 

[KuruPrionz]

18 minutes ago, The Real MC said:

None.

 

It is a bad idea to master with headphones.  There was a period when my reference speakers were out of service and I had to master using headphones.  None of my four headphones were as good as the reference speakers, and I had more trouble getting satisfactory mixes.

 

The only thing I use headphones for are working with isolated tracks.  

Sundown isn't asking the question you answered.  "So if you walked into a high-end Mastering studio (or a high-end recording studio), what are you likely to find? What do the most discerning engineers use when listening to headphones?"

 

He's asking if you walked into a high end studio - mastering or recording, what headphones would you find? Further, what do the high budget engineers listen to when/if they use headphones. He said nothing about actually "mastering with headphones." Some people do listen afterwards and use various reference points. 

 

You mention using headphones for working with isolated tracks. I put headphones on here and there throughout the recording process, including sometimes when am setting up to record. Headphones can provide useful information regarding microphone bleed when there are instruments playing and vocals being sung. Listening to vocal mics with over ear cans on may tell you that you need to do something about a particular source of bleed in that mic. It might be hard to hear that same thing in the same space with uncovered ears. 

 

Agree 100% that speakers will provide more accurate information for mastering.

 

That said, I always listen to what I've done on headphones at least once. They are a great reference. I don't have a budget for the really expensive headphones and I've never listened through them so I didn't answer that part of his question, instead I referred him to TapeOp, there are certainly more recording engineers lurking there than there are here. 

[Anderton]

The realities of the market place have shifted how I sign off on masters. Traditionally, I mixed (or mastered) over speakers and did a reality check on headphones. These days I mix/master on headphones and do the reality check on speakers, because:

 

1. If I start with headphones, as KuiruPrioz points out, you can often catch issues that won't be as obvious initially over speakers.

2. According to the meager statistics I could find, speaklers and headphones have roughly achieved parity in terms of how consumers listen to music. (Unfortunately, computer speakers are one of the main choices for speakers - not nice hi-fi stuff). So whatever you do has to work for both.

3. As the Real MC points out, it's harder to get a satisfying mix on headphones. If I can get a good mix on headphones, then the odds are good the mix will translate well over speakers. If I get a good mix on speakers, it may or may not translate well over headphones. But I switch back and forth quite a bit during the process, it isn't all one, then all the other.

4. I always start my mixes in mono to check whether the arrangement has enough space to accommodate all the instruments clearly and distinctly. It could be subjective, but I think headphones are far more unforgiving that way. Speakers give a sense of openness, even with mono.

 

I don't recommend working this way, it's what works for me. I've become resigned to the fact that playback systems are wildly divergent. It's impossible to do a mix that will sound as intended. The best you can hope for is that all the elements you want people to hear come through, regardless of the playback medium. Also I do a lot of narration, and people will likely be hearing the end result on smartphone speakers, laptops, sound bars, etc. That's a whole other ball game.

 

If you want to be truly horrified, grab five sets of headphones - even expensive ones - an iPad, earbuds, and computer speakers. Play your music through them. Then, say "abandon all hope, ye who enter here." However, as long as people can hear the vocals and drums, they'll usually be happy.

 

The wild card in all this is software that does binaural tricks to make headphones sound like you're in a control room or other acoustic environment, or which apply compensation curves to flatten the headphones' response. The former may seem like a gimmick,  but it's not if you collaborate. Two people with the same headphones and same virtual control room software will hear the same thing when they mix. The odds of having a duplicate acoustical environment and using speakers are more remote. But you still need to listen over both normal headphones and speakers eventually IMHO.

 

That said, in a high-end recording studio, you'll find that the main use for headphones by far is overdubbing and tracking. Headphones get a lot of abuse in the studio - dropped, stepped on, etc. - so many times, they're chosen on the basis of withstanding the rigors of a session more than audio quality.

[Notes_Norton]

Something I probably couldn't afford. 😆

[Dave Bryce]

Probably at least some Audezes.

 

dB

[bill5]

I haven't the faintest idea, as I never have nor ever will walk into such a place. I'm not sure I can even afford the walk.

 

But this sounds more like a "what high-end headphones should I buy" post, so.....

 

Wait, can't help there either. Sorry.  I'm a hobbyist and a firm believer that you can get great gear for very modest prices these days. g/l though.

[The Real MC]

21 hours ago, KuruPrionz said:

Sundown isn't asking the question you answered.

 

Thank you for the knee-jerk rip.  I'm sorry I ever shared my thirty plus years of experience.  

[KuruPrionz]

7 minutes ago, The Real MC said:

 

Thank you for the knee-jerk rip.  I'm sorry I ever shared my thirty plus years of experience.  

I've been in a few studios myself and every one of them had headphones, often several pairs.

Don't get all snarled up about it, we all have our moments. 😇 I sure have mine. Sorry if I turned your crank, just being real. 

You mentioned that you even have a pair for times when your speakers are down. 

 

[Anderton]

When I first received a copy of Sonarworks to review, the first thing I did was grab every headphone I could find for which they supplied compensation curves to create a flat response.

 

Shock #1 was when they all sounded like they had very similar frequency responses. There were differences in character (e.g., different transducer technologies, open or closed-back), but the frequency responses were super-close.

 

Shock #2 was when I realized how little in common the flat frequency response had in common with the headphones' "native" headphone.

 

A more recent, but unrelated, shock was the huge effect headphone amps have on how some headphones sound.

 

Everything we have to work with seems to involve a moving target...

[KuruPrionz]

56 minutes ago, Anderton said:

When I first received a copy of Sonarworks to review, the first thing I did was grab every headphone I could find for which they supplied compensation curves to create a flat response.

 

Shock #1 was when they all sounded like they had very similar frequency responses. There were differences in character (e.g., different transducer technologies, open or closed-back), but the frequency responses were super-close.

 

Shock #2 was when I realized how little in common the flat frequency response had in common with the headphones' "native" headphone.

 

A more recent, but unrelated, shock was the huge effect headphone amps have on how some headphones sound.

 

Everything we have to work with seems to involve a moving target...

I've wondered about Sonarworks. It seems to me that if you can get consistent results from headphones they should fine for mixing and mastering. 

 

I was staying at a friends vacant house for 13 months and didn't wanted to be able to record but I didn't want to move much stuff. 

Laptop, SSL 2+, a mic stand, a couple of mics and cords, a small guitar amp, acoustic guitar, electric guitar, bass and Key 25. I brought my newest pair of headphones EX-25 Extreme Isolation. Over the months they got broken in and started sounding better. 

 

I recorded and mixed 2 songs using only that rig. It was a great experience, I'm reducing the amount of stuff at home since I know I don't need it. 

 

The headphone amps in the SSL 2+ are better sounding to me than anything I've had previously, including a Presonus 8-in TB2 interface that cost much more. 

That said, I'm sure there's better headphone amps out there. One step at a time! In a 33 unit complex it's nice to be able to work on things at 2am without anybody else hearing it. 

[Nathanael_I]

Audeeze, sennheiser hd600, 650, 800, high-end Focal stuff.  There’s several boutique companies that regularly score better than audeeze on the headphone review sites. We live in a golden era for headphones. And the best news is that the best models are in the $4-6k range.  These rival speakers north of $50k apiece. The value is unreal.  This is one place that truly world-class excellence can be obtained by many.  Spend above $1100 bucks or so and it will likely be the best sound you’ve owned unless you have high end speakers and a treated room. 

[Notes_Norton]

10 hours ago, Anderton said:

Everything we have to work with seems to involve a moving target...

What I learned when studying electronics in college is that everything you do to the signal distorts the signal.

 

The mic, the preamp, the amp, the speakers (headphones) and everything else in the chain adds its own distortion to the signal.

 

Even the eq circuit in your guitar (vol/tone) will distort the signal.

 

When choosing gear, what kind of distortion do you find least offensive, and what level of distortion can you live with.

 

Fortunately, high-end gear has improved quite a bit through the years, so the choice is easier.

 

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

[Stokely]

Not sure if they would be considered high end, but my Massdrop HD 600 equivalent (58x jubilee) I consider one of the best deals around.  I paid $150 for them, not sure if the price is still the same.  I'm considering getting the Massdrop 650 model (6xx I think) as another flavor.

Extremely comfy open phones.   My room has some echo so I don't use speakers much--though I'm making plans to add some bass traps and acoustic panels.  Darn Nord stage 3 that I'm saving for is keeping me pinching pennies!

I have ancient (mid 90s) KRK unpowered speakers, no idea if they are still fine or not.   They are 8", I don't use a sub (though I do have a 10" powered sub bought for a theater setup).  I drive them with an equally ancient Crown reference amp.   My ears don't remember good speakers in a good studio space.  I do know that until I spiff up my room I'm not going to invest in new speakers.

As I mostly use phones to mix on, I just do a lot of referencing (with Metric AB) and take mixes out to the car and other spaces to compare to other material.  I'm pretty curious about Sonorworks and similar products, I don't quite get what they do.

[Anderton]

2 hours ago, Stokely said:

 I'm pretty curious about Sonorworks and similar products, I don't quite get what they do.

 

There are two main types of headphone-related plugins. Both insert in the main bus, and are used only when monitoring - you bypass them before exporting. 

 

Sonarworks measured the frequency response of a zillion different headphones. The program generates a compensation curve to flatten their response. For example, if headphone XX has a -3 dB dip at 1 kHz, the correction curve adds a +3 dB dip at 1 kHz, with the same bandwidth. Its only goal is to give a flat response.

 

Virtual control rooms, like the Waves NX plugins and Steven Slate's VSX, attempt to re-create the experience of listening in an acoustic space over speakers, but while wearing headphones. Listening on speakers involves crossfeeds of left channel audio into the right ear, reflections, and the like that give a sense of space. Through binaural trickery, it's even possible to give a surround sound "feel" with stereo. They can also flatten the headphone response.

 

The main limitation with flattening response curves is the variability among headphones of the same make and model. Manufacturing tolerances aren't that tight, so any compensation curve is an average. Sonarworks offers a service where you can send them the headphones you use, and they'll generate a custom curves. Another limitation is that the program may not include your headphones among the list of headphones they've measured. For example, Sonarworks has a profile for the KRK headphones, Waves Nx does not.

 

Slate doesn't do headphone compensation because the VSX system includes a set of headphones along with the software, so the headphones are always a known quantity.

[Anderton]

One crucial point often gets lost in the mixing with headphones vs. speakers: They are very different listening experiences. Almost by definition, a mix optimized for speakers will not sound "right" on headphones, and a mix optimized for headphones will not sound "right" on speakers. The best you can hope for is a compromise that works reasonably well on both.

 

I've toyed with releasing two versions of my albums on YouTube, one mixed for speakers, and one mixed for headphones.

[bill5]

I think far more people listen on speakers vs headphones, so about 90% of getting it right for me relies on listening that way. As someone else mentioned, headphones are mostly just good for picking up nuances you might not on speakers. 

[KuruPrionz]

1 hour ago, bill5 said:

I think far more people listen on speakers vs headphones, so about 90% of getting it right for me relies on listening that way. As someone else mentioned, headphones are mostly just good for picking up nuances you might not on speakers. 

I always play my final mix on horrible little speakers. I email it to a friend who listens to the speaker on his phone and see what he thinks too. 

Things need to translate to a variety of transducers, good, bad and ugly. 

[bill5]

Yeah I guess it varies depending on who you expect your intended audience to be (what they listen on). 

[Stokely]

11 hours ago, bill5 said:

I think far more people listen on speakers vs headphones, so about 90% of getting it right for me relies on listening that way. As someone else mentioned, headphones are mostly just good for picking up nuances you might not on speakers. 

If you mean end users, these days I'd guess it's the opposite.  Just about everyone (including me) has bluetooth earbuds.  Young people in particular (that I know, I live with two and see a lot of their friends) don't own or use a "stereo".   Heck they don't really listen to music for that matter, just tiktok and youtube, but that's another thing.

 

Then you get weird people.  I sent our lead singer a mix I'd done of the band, recorded live multi-tracked.   She sent back some complaint that seemed odd.  I asked her what she was listening on.  "iphone".  Ok, not unexpected.  "What earbuds are you using?"  "I'm not, I'm just using the iphone speaker, like everyone does."    Really, everyone?   I guess I should make sure mixes work well on freaking phone speakers.  To be fair, I do check mixes at very low volumes often to see what is poking out!

Car speakers, sure.  I do take mixes out to our cars to check them out.
 

[KuruPrionz]

9 hours ago, bill5 said:

Yeah I guess it varies depending on who you expect your intended audience to be (what they listen on). 

I don't know a lot of people who listen on anything resembling a studio monitor. Other studio rats do, most people, as mentioned above, use earbuds. Some use cheap headphones, very few even use good ones. 

That's why I wrote this bit on recording bass guitar. A friend commented that he liked how he could hear the bass on his cell phone speaker. He is a musician,  a bassist. 

A bit of harmonic distortion on the higher frequencies brings the bass part out on tiny speakers. Done right, it won't compromise you mix.

 

[zeronyne]

This is one of those subjects like fretboard wood or high mass bridges or gold cables that is easily tested, but no one wants to really know.

And I'm not talking about a binary hypothesis. I'm a little disappointed that one of the magazines never tried something like this:

 

Get a nicely mixed reference track. Ask (pay) Bob Clearmountain to master it based on some repeatable requirements. A week later, ask him to master the same source track, but only using headphones. There doesn't need to be a value judgement at the end of which one is better. The more meaningful discovery would be how different they are. I would guess that if you didn't compare them one right after the other, you'd be hard pressed to even notice a difference on regular earbuds or sub $200 headphones. But I wish someone with the time, money, and inclination would prove me wrong (or right). How about it, Mix or TapeOp or SoS?

[Nowarezman]

The problem is that out of the zillions of people who play music, only a tiny fraction of them listen.  Headphones, speakers, buds, phones, it doesn't matter.  I do all I do for the ones who listen.  

 

nat

 

[bill5]

12 hours ago, Stokely said:

If you mean end users, these days I'd guess it's the opposite.  Just about everyone (including me) has bluetooth earbuds.  Young people in particular (that I know, I live with two and see a lot of their friends) don't own or use a "stereo".   Heck they don't really listen to music for that matter, just tiktok and youtube, but that's another thing.

Yeah on further reflection you're probably right. How sad. I don't mean so much about not owning a stereo system, but not really listening to music much and even then I shudder to think how much they REALLY listen. 

[Sundown]

Great feedback guys … I appreciate it.

 

Craig - Interesting insight about durability … It makes sense. Some of the higher-end headphones might not take a beating, and a professional studio is going to have plenty of opportunities for damage.

 

I’ve never been to a real mastering studio, but I would think an apprentice first listens to the material over headphones for basic flaws (pops, clicks, etc). Then the sonic adjustments (EQ, compression, limiting, etc.) would be done by the top dog engineer on high-end speakers. But my impression/opinion is that headphones are a better tool for identifying clicks, pops, artifacts, etc. My home studio is really quiet and really treated, but I don’t think I would pick up those minute details on monitors.

 

I’m really on a hi-fi journey right now with my subscription to TIDAL, and I’m enjoying music I’ve known for a long time in totally new ways. MQA is giving me access to details and depth that I’ve missed for a long time, and I’ve been kicking around the idea of getting a top-flight set of cans.

 

Todd

[Stokely]

11 hours ago, bill5 said:

Yeah on further reflection you're probably right. How sad. I don't mean so much about not owning a stereo system, but not really listening to music much and even then I shudder to think how much they REALLY listen. 

On the bright side, after my oldest son has been a "band kid" in school marching and orchestral bands for the last 8 years of so,  (he's 20 now) I have been floored with 1) the interest of modern kids, those bands were huge  2) the ability to learn tough instruments like french horn VERY quickly and 3) the incredible dedication of every band leader at his schools.  I can't think of a tougher job (making probably half what I make as a software engineer) but they all were quite obviously driven to it and seemed to love it.

So it's not all tracks and AI and bored non-music generations.  I just see that stuff (well, not AI yet!) at my gigs    The only people really into our music are older people (who want to dance) and really young ones (who also want to dance!).  Doesn't matter if we play newer music either, though to be fair we don't do a lot of that.

[MAJUSCULE]

16 hours ago, Sundown said:

Great feedback guys … I appreciate it.

 

Craig - Interesting insight about durability … It makes sense. Some of the higher-end headphones might not take a beating, and a professional studio is going to have plenty of opportunities for damage.

 

That's two different things, though. A recording studio where people are tracking a bunch is going to go through headphones by the dozen and will likely have mid- to lower-range cans available for common use. A dedicated mastering studio will rarely have guests and gear is usually pricey and babied to the nth degree.

[KenElevenShadows]

But all the same, do mastering engineers hand clients the $200 headphones or the $1000 ones?

 

Also, how much do they use headphones in a mastering studio anyway? I've been to several mastering studios, including one in the famous Capitol Building in Hollywood, and I've never seen anyone wearing headphones or been offered them.

 

I can tell you that after having two headphones destroyed at my recording studio during tracking, I have only used relatively inexpensive headphones. Often, it was the hardcore bands that generally treated my stuff with the most respect.

[RABid]

One thing about it, headphones are a good long term investment. I bought a set of Sennheiser HD600's maybe 15 years ago and they are still going strong. I've felt no need to upgrade or change brands. Probably my best return on my dollars in my bedroom studio.

[Anderton]

On 3/29/2023 at 8:42 PM, bill5 said:

I think far more people listen on speakers vs headphones. 

 

If you count laptop and computer speakers, you're probably right. But if you count the kind of speakers that hi-fi enthusiasts use, and consider earbuds as headphones, I think headphones win.

 

I was very pleasantly surprised when I played by 2022 album project over a cheap Samsung Android phone. It didn't sound like it did in the studio, but you could hear pretty much all the parts. I patted myself on the back 🤣