Slapback echo; your take on it...

[picker]

I recently picked up a Gretsch Electromatic G5122. IT's in the shop getting the pickups switched up with some TV Jones Brian Setzer signature p/ups. I can't wait to get it back and twang away!

I spoke with a friend of mine who also has a Gretsch, and he uses a Digitech RP 500 which has a "Stray Cats" patch on it that he says is exquisite. It got me to thinking about how I should set my amp and effects. I've tried setting up a slapback sound in the past, and I don't recall being very pleased with my results. So, I wondered if any of you guys have a slapback/rockabilly set up for your rig you like. How many repeats do you use on the echo? Do you use anything besides short echo, like compression and/or reverb?
AN Enquiring mind wants to know...🎸

[Larryz]

When I was using my pedals, I could get some rockabilly sound using my MXR Carbon Copy Delay and/or my Keeley Memphis Sun pedals.  I always have reverb on the amp going but don't need to turn it up much with these two pedals...Love the Stray Cats, Elvis, etc.  Never had an echo, but that would be a great way to get the Scotty Moore sound.  Let us know what you come up with!  😎👍

[Caevan O’Shite]

12 hours ago, picker said:

I recently picked up a Gretsch Electromatic G5122. IT's in the shop getting the pickups switched up with some TV Jones Brian Setzer signature p/ups. I can't wait to get it back and twang away!

I spoke with a friend of mine who also has a Gretsch, and he uses a Digitech RP 500 which has a "Stray Cats" patch on it that he says is exquisite. It got me to thinking about how I should set my amp and effects. I've tried setting up a slapback sound in the past, and I don't recall being very pleased with my results. So, I wondered if any of you guys have a slapback/rockabilly set up for your rig you like. How many repeats do you use on the echo? Do you use anything besides short echo, like compression and/or reverb?
AN Enquiring mind wants to know...🎸

I may or may not use any reverb along with a slap-back echo; if I do, it'll be just enough to enhance the splashy percussiveness of the slap-back echo, without burying and obscuring it.

But often, if I feel like some slap-back echo, I'll have almost no reverb at all. (I always have a very slight amount of reverb dialed-in on my Strymon El Capistan tape-flavored echo pedal, which is the only echo pedal I have currently.)

Now, just about ANY echo pedal that'll do short enough delay times will do- you certainly do NOT need to spend big money here.

I usually have only one echo repeat going for slap-back, mixed a bit high. Sometimes more repeats, but usually just one.

I usually use around 120ms or so of delay time for slap-back; 50ms to 150ms would be the general range most people would use for slap-back, if I remember right.

I favor a somewhat bright echo for slap-back, but it'll vary a bit; usually just a little darker than the straight-signal. On my El Capistan, for most echo effects, I pretty much always have its tape-style 'Wow & Flutter' modulation pretty high- around 2:00 O'Clock or higher-  and its 'Tape Crinkle' maxed-out for chewed-up garbley repeats. This makes any echo repeats stand out as different from the straight-signal notes and gives them a texture and character that I really like. Though with slap-backs short delay-time and quick single repeat, that texture and character aren't too likely to be noticed that much...

Mix it almost as high as equal to your 'straight' signal, so that it's prominent and won't be unnoticed, but won't get in the way of the straight-signal notes. 'Ba-bap, ba-bap Ba-bap; Bappity B'Bap'.

Compressor pedals, overdrive, or anything else? Only whatever you need to get the overall sound that you want without the echo, then add the echo. A little tube-amp-like overdrive usually suits the musical settings that one would want slap-back for, but 'whatever'. I like putting my echo-pedal in my amps effects-loop, or after the preamp/modeler/cab IR that I might be using instead of an amp.

You might like the same, or you might find that you prefer having the echo first. There's no wrong answer there!

Reverb... Slap-back... If you don't already have an amp or pedal for it, you'll be on the fast-lane to tremolo town next...

    
  
 

[surfergirl]

I have a MXR Carbon Copy Delay, but I'm using the delay on my Vox vt 40+. I does have an echo but I haven't ventured Into it yet. I set the delay at about 90. a little reverb.

https://youtu.be/Ttn5ME02TDQ

[KuruPrionz]

Experiment, all of the above are good sounds. 

I like just enough feedback on the delay to get just a bit of a second delay, then I don't need reverb and it's more like the sound of a room echo. 

You will find that there isn't one single speed that works for everything, adjust accordingly. Faster songs may need a faster slapback than slower songs. 

[Winston Psmith]

Tap Tempo can really help locking in a good slapback sound, especially if you're playing several tunes with different Tempos. I use a short Analog Delay in my Novparolo 'board, to add a little presence to the Guitar sound.

 

Right now, I have 13 Delay pedals on hand, plus all of my MFX have Delay FX built in. I use everything from short Delay for Ambient effects, up to long repeating Loops. Other than OD/Distortion pedals - please don't make me count those - Delay is my most common and most-used effect.

 

For my purposes, Delay isn't just a sound effect, it's a compositional tool. You can't get a Dirt box to generate 1/8th Note Triplets on its own.

[Caevan O’Shite]

2 hours ago, Winston Psmith said:

Tap Tempo can really help locking in a good slapback sound, especially if you're playing several tunes with different Tempos.

Indeed!
 

 

2 hours ago, Winston Psmith said:

For my purposes, Delay isn't just a sound effect, it's a compositional tool.

Mightily indeed! Is there an echo in here?  
     
 

[hurricane hugo]

I didn't like it until I got my Rockman XPR preamp, which had a few preset echo lengths on it. The slapback sounded awesome whether distorted or clean, especially with the stop chorus. I don't have that preamp anymore, but I'll always love that sound.

[picker]

Some good advice, thanks guys(and Surfer Girl). I'm particularly interested in any input I can get on employing compression for slap back.

[KuruPrionz]

56 minutes ago, picker said:

Some good advice, thanks guys(and Surfer Girl). I'm particularly interested in any input I can get on employing compression for slap back.

If you like using compression, do it. If you don't like it, tweak it. If that doesn't work, don't do it. 

If we had examples of you playing the guitar, we might have other things to offer. 

As it stands, I'm not sure what you want to accomplish. There has never been only one way to do things with a guitar. 😇

[picker]

On 11/3/2022 at 5:31 PM, Caevan O’Shite said:

Reverb... Slap-back... If you don't already have an amp or pedal for it, you'll be on the fast-lane to tremolo town next...

 

I've been hooked on tremolo since John Fogarty used it on "Born On The Bayou". That's the jam, dude!

    
  
 

 

34 minutes ago, KuruPrionz said:

If you like using compression, do it. If you don't like it, tweak it. If that doesn't work, don't do it. 

If we had examples of you playing the guitar, we might have other things to offer. 

As it stands, I'm not sure what you want to accomplish. There has never been only one way to do things with a guitar. 😇

I've been reading about using compression in combination with other effects to fatten up the sound over all. I hoped there might be somebody with some experience using it that way with slapback/rockabilly sounds. 

 

[KuruPrionz]

Just now, picker said:

 

 

FWIW, I've been playing for over 50 years, was a guitar tech for most of that time and now dabble in the recording arts with my own studio.

 

Bear in mind that compression works by reducing the peaks, then when you add makeup gain, noise increases. If you are using quiet gear, that may be acceptable. 

Some amps have a bit of compression as a side effect of how they work but most of them get way too loud when you turn them up to the point of adding compression. 

This is a characteristic of tube amps but you'll want to be at 15 watts or preferably under if you don't want to damage your hearing. 

 

First, figure out what is making your guitar sound thin. It could be any number of things.

 

Pickups: What's in the guitar now and what don't you like about it's tone? Play it completely clean and listen. If your pickups sound thin, your guitar will sound thin. I prefer the EMG T and SA pickups with an SPC (mid boost, treble roll-off) cranked, that gives me a full sound with just enough sparkle and it's not only very quiet but it will remain full sounding even if there are a few effect pedals. You can install an SPC on passive pickups, it will work fine but needs a 9v battery (they last a LONG time if you don't leave the guitar plugged in). I avoid single coil pickups (Strat, Tele, P-90s) like the plague. If you like hum, noise and the occasional radio playing through your amp, go ahead and use them. Not for me, ever. 

 

Next, unplug your guitar and listen to how it sounds. Some of them sound like crap unplugged, thin yet harsh. That could be lots of things but usually the bridge, the nut and the tuners can be culprits. If you have a tailpiece and the strings go from the tailpiece to the bridge, some of those sound terrible. The Gibson style with the tune-o-matic bridge and the tailpiece mounted close on 2 studs sounds fine as long as you have a good angle on the strings coming from the tailpiece. Don't wrap them over the top of the tailpiece unless you can get a good angle, putting pressure on the bridge. Floating tailpiece like an arch top guitar will rob fullness, if it's a hollow body you'll end up needing to run on the neck pickup to get a full sound. 

 

Starting from scratch, it's been my experience that most amps come with a substandard speaker. Finding the speaker that sounds best for your ears can be an experiment, a shot in the dark, an extended journey. 

I happen to like the original Peavey Scorpion speakers, they are no longer made but available. The Scorpion Plus 12" is heavy but it delivers. Eminence has a good variety of different sounding speakers that are described well, another possible resource. 

 

If you have a speaker that you are happy with then the next thing would be pedals.

 

It's a sad fact that effect pedals in general rob your tone of everything you love about it. This is especially true of single coil pickups, the pedals "load" the impedance of the pickups and they just don't sound good. One or two isn't so bad but it seems they escalate. I've got friends who have 10 or more pedals on their board and their guitars sound like crap to me, flat, dull and noisy. Some like having the compressor in the middle of the pedals, some on the front and some on the back. Those are all different sounds, try them and see. 

 

If you are using a tube amp then you are more or less stuck using pedals if you want effects. The more effects you chain up, the less you will love your tone. If possible, run them in the Effects loop to maintain the tone of the guitar, or use a multi-effects pedal (see next paragraph, last 2 sentences). 

 

There are some great sounding amps by Peavey (Vypyr series), Boss (Katana) and Line 6 (not familiar with current models) that have the ability to save presets and more effects built in post preamp than you'll ever need, including compression. There are also multi-effects pedals from Boss, Zoom, Line 6 and others that buffer the guitar signal and provide better tone. If you are committed to tubes then those are probably a better way to go. 

 

I use a Peavy Vypyr VIP 1 with a Scorpion 10" in it. It's small, it's light (25 pounds), it can be loud but it can sound like it's loud and not be loud. Anything I'd ever want for effects is there (I mostly don't use effects but there are plenty on tap).

 

Yes, LOTS of variables and ALL of them matter. Do everything else right and put a thin, crappy sounding speaker in your amp (or thin sounding pickups) and you're hosed. 

I've been down this road and tried just about everything. It took a while but I'm happy with my tone, finally... 😇

 

[CEB]

The last time I relied heavily on this sound I was working in a 50s 60’s pre- British Invasion Rock n Roll review show. This was in the 80s when Happy Days was a huge TV hit.   Gear is overrated, you just need a fast delay. My delay was an old EHX Memory Man. The amps were a 66 Super Reverb and/or a 65 Twin Reverb. The only thing else I needed was a graphic EQ to tame any feedback problems that could occurred when playing a ES-175 at loud volumes.  Compression was tricky for me to get right back then.   I’d use compression today because I use compressors with clean blend controls that let you mix in the initial pick attack that you would lose with the old compressors I had then.  I’ve since done the same sound with my DE-7, DD-7, Carbon Copy, rack delays etc … A good old tube amp with Spring reverb is more important than the actual delay. 

[Larryz]

+1 CEB, a Fender tube amp with spring reverb and a good delay pedal should be all you need to put you back in the rockabilly vibe.  I must have reverb but run it on the low side. If I want more of a rockabilly vibe I kick on a delay.  I can also get syrupy on the surf vibe with the same setup.  I also use a newer model Boss CP-1x compressor for kicking up my volume using a 175 and/or my other solid, semi-hollow, electric bodies and acoustics. 

 

+1 Kuru, the more pedals the more effect they can have on your clean tone.

 

Picker, On the compressor, I'm not really using it as a compressor LoL!  It is the only pedal I still use in-line.  I use it as a clean boost and not to fatten up slap back, so I can't really comment on how it would work for that concept.  I like to set my guitar and amp for running very clean (i.e., no Dist/OD, etc.).  I set my guitar controls where I want them and then boost my volume with the Boss CP-1x keeping it as clean as possible.  I use it for when my lead volume needs to come up and then kick it off to get back to my rhythm level.  😎

 

 

 

 

[Caevan O’Shite]

17 hours ago, picker said:

I've been hooked on tremolo since John Fogarty used it on "Born On The Bayou". That's the jam, dude!

             

Yeah, that's a great one! Just a little out of sync with the beat and tempo, to pull the listener in...

Now, when you have Reverb fed into Tremolo, so that the verb is chopped up by the trem, that's THE CLASSIC tremolo sound, in my humble opinion! That's what I like and use the most for tremolo.


As for compressor pedals, you probably don't need one. They can be a weird and frustrating rabbit-hole, time and tone suck.

That said, they can be great, too.

If your Gretsch guitar has humbuckers in it- TV Jones Brian Setzer sig-model versions of Filter'Trons, right?- it will probably sound and feel dulled and murked-up by most 'regular' compressor pedals that follow the vintage Ross/MXR Dyna Comp template using OTA ("Operational Transconductance Amplifier") chip topology, like most from Keeley, Wampler, etc. (the old discontinued HomeBrew Electronics ComPressor Retro, aka HBE CPR, that I love).

If you were using a Tele with single-coil pickups, I'd heartily recommend one of those OTA type squeezeboxes. I hate the way those sound and feel with my Les Paul, though!

I suspect that the prominent pronounced attack that a good Tele type has affects the way a compressor pedal reacts, in a way that guitar players will love but not necessarily in a way that producers and engineers would like for general compressor applications while recording various instruments or vocals.

The same compressor pedal types seem to further blunt the already blunted attack of a higher output humbucker, and squash it into an unpleasant sonic brick... Trey Anastasio of Phish, the Dead, etc. seems to like it, though.


If you play through a cranked-up tube-amp and you use your guitars volume controls to vary from cleaner to meaner to misdemeanor, you'll probably get plenty of inherent compression right there, particularly as you bring up them volume-knobs.

Use a good clean-boost and/or overdrive pedal, and you'll likely incur more such 'natural', inherent compression from the amp and/or pedals.


Set the Mix or Balance of your echo/delay pedal to have a very strong echo level, close to the same as your 'straight' signal. Like approximately 60% Dry/40% Wet, or 55% Dry/45% Wet.


Bear in mind that the originators and torch-bearers of Rockabilly tend to have used cranked-up Fender "tweed", blond, brown, blackpanel and silverface type amps, and sometimes Voxes and others... less often Marshalls and other gainier, mid-strong amps. And bear in mind that they almost CERTAINLY were NOT using compressor-pedals, and probably not much 'studio' compression, either.

A multi-effects unit like that DigiTech RP500 might add a compressor-pedal modeler in the virtual chain because the multi-effects unit NEEDS that extra oomph and compression, especially when fed into a low to medium volume amp, particularly if it's also a SS amp. Likewise for SS digital-modeling/mfx amps. 
    
 

[Winston Psmith]

The best reason to have a Digital MFX, or programmable Delay, for Slapback Echo effects is so that you can quickly and easily switch tempos for different tunes when playing live, but again, Tap Tempo will allow you to do much the same thing.