The Great Mystery: 1980-ish Gibson Schaller 9mm threads knowledge oblivion.

[KuruPrionz]

A friend brought a 1980 Gibson ES-335 over. He wanted Graph Tec Ratio tuners - done and fully reversable. 

He also wanted to replace the fine tuner tailpiece with a solid bar. "Should be easy..."

The studs cannot be used, the heads are a proprietary design for the fine tuner tailpiece, which covers the top of the studs for a smooth feel and appearance. 

 

My little stash of Gibson tailpiece studs do not thread properly. Investigation shows that the bridge and tailpiece on this guitar are "Made In Germany", which means Schaller. Great quality stuff, no beef there. A visit to a local hardware store that has (almost) EVERYTHING - with one of the studs from the guitar in tow, showed that it is 9mm with a finer than standard thread. 9mm is very close in size to the standard 3/8" USA made Gibson studs.

 

I've searched eBay and Reverb and there are lots of Gibson tailpiece studs but there is no mention of any difference in size/thread. The 9mm studs have a finer thread, there is a coarser 9mm thread and an even finer one. 

 

I don''t feel like pulling the threaded mounts out of the guitar body and there is no guarantee that replacements will fit since Gibson has out-sourced these parts from many vendors over the years. 

 

Chaos!!!!!  I'm thinking I'll just keep the fine tuner tailpiece on there, at least until I can un-ravel this mystery. 

Any and all insights are most welcome!!!! Cheers, Kuru

[Caevan O’Shite]

Potentially stupid question (yeah, I know, there are no stupid questions- but there sure are a LOT of inquisitive idiots out there and I just may be joining there ranks here ): Do you have to use different studs? Can't one or another solid tailpiece slide onto the existing ones, and/or fit within the center-to-center spacing? Or are the metric dimensions too small? If so- maybe a metric designed tailpiece might fit, such as one intended for an Epiphone or the like?
 

What are the dimensions of the space in those studs where the fine-tuner tailpiece fits into them?
 

[Winston Psmith]

It's the 1980 vintage that's worrying me.

 

AFAIK, the current model Gibson FT-6 will slip right over the standard studs on an Epiphone, because I know folks who have done it, so it seems that the reverse should also be true - a standard Stop Tailpiece should, in theory(?), slip right over the studs you're looking at.

 

Of course, as you say, Gibson had different makers supplying different parts at different times. My favorite Schaller tailpieces aren't even available anymore.

[Caevan O’Shite]

16 minutes ago, Winston Psmith said:

My favorite Schaller tailpieces aren't even available anymore.

Which one is that, Winston?

[KuruPrionz]

21 minutes ago, Caevan O’Shite said:

Which one is that, Winston?

If it's like the one I have, it's heavy (probably solid brass) and beautifully chrome plated. It doesn't say Schaller on it anywhere, just "Made In Germany" in tiny letters.

 

As to what is what with this other unit, I've already put it back together but I'll take a photo so you can see it. 

Most of the fine-tuner tailpieces fit standard studs, this one does not and you cannot see the top of the studs at all, the tailpiece is solid on top.

Which is why the studs are not standard, the mounting slot in them has to be much smaller so the tailpiece can be mounted. 

Typical German engineering, the tailpiece is a very snug fit to the studs with zero wiggle. 

 

Photo later when I get back home. 

[Caevan O’Shite]

5 minutes ago, KuruPrionz said:

As to what is what with this other unit, I've already put it back together but I'll take a photo so you can see it. 

Most of the fine-tuner tailpieces fit standard studs, this one does not and you cannot see the top of the studs at all, the tailpiece is solid on top.

Which is why the studs are not standard, the mounting slot in them has to be much smaller so the tailpiece can be mounted. 

Typical German engineering, the tailpiece is a very snug fit to the studs with zero wiggle. 

 

Photo later when I get back home. 

Aaahh, I get ya now.

You probably will have to pull and replace the existing bushings, then- just so long as whichever bushings/studs/tailpiece you go with also reasonably fits the existing center-to-center spacing.

Or- do you have any Machinist friends that could mill-down the ends of a more typical aluminum tailpiece to fit the old studs?

I bet the existing (Schaller?) fine-tuning tailpiece looks like this:

[KuruPrionz]

2 minutes ago, Caevan O’Shite said:

Aaahh, I get ya now.

You probably will have to pull and replace the existing bushings, then- just so long as whichever bushings/studs/tailpiece you go with also reasonably fits the existing center-to-center spacing.

Or- do you have any Machinist friends that could mill-down the ends of a more typical aluminum tailpiece to fit the old studs?

I bet the existing (Schaller?) fine-tuning tailpiece looks like this:

It looks exactly like that and as far as I am concerned it can just stay on the guitar forever.

If and when I find a simple solution for this then I'll reconsider that stance but for now I have too many projects as it is. 

[KuruPrionz]

As promised, despite Mr. O'Shite's excellent photo. 

2 photos of the tailpiece in question. 

One of them shows how different the mounting studs are, note how thin the groove is in the tailpiece for the top of the stud, about half the thickness of a stud for a one piece tailpiece. There also isn't nearly enough room in the gap for the depth of the one-piece either. Cant be done, no way no how.  

 

I'll find something eventually and fix it up all purty. 

[Winston Psmith]

That's the Schaller tailpiece I have . . . definitely NOT the Gibson TP-6. I have those on both of my SG's, and the heads of the mounting studs are considerably narrower than stock Gibson studs. As KuruPrionz observed, there is essentially no wiggle room once the tailpiece is mounted onto the studs.

 

Interestingly, I didn't have to swap out the bushings in either of my SG's - or the various LP's I'd previously mounted that tailpiece on? The Schaller studs screwed right into the Gibson U.S.-threaded bushings, no problem. Same thing with my Schaller Roller Bridges - the Schaller studs screwed right into the U.S.-made Guitars.

 

I strongly suspect that some previous owner swapped out the hardware, which is a drag, because a stock Gibson tailpiece would have slipped right into place ove the TP-6 studs.

 

Looking around, I've seen a number of references to late-70's/early-80's Gibson with the Gibson TP-6 fine-tuning tailpiece, but none with a Schaller? Might have to dig deeper . . .

[KuruPrionz]

2 hours ago, Winston Psmith said:

That's the Schaller tailpiece I have . . . definitely NOT the Gibson TP-6. I have those on both of my SG's, and the heads of the mounting studs are considerably narrower than stock Gibson studs. As KuruPrionz observed, there is essentially no wiggle room once the tailpiece is mounted onto the studs.

 

Interestingly, I didn't have to swap out the bushings in either of my SG's - or the various LP's I'd previously mounted that tailpiece on? The Schaller studs screwed right into the Gibson U.S.-threaded bushings, no problem. Same thing with my Schaller Roller Bridges - the Schaller studs screwed right into the U.S.-made Guitars.

 

I strongly suspect that some previous owner swapped out the hardware, which is a drag, because a stock Gibson tailpiece would have slipped right into place ove the TP-6 studs.

 

Looking around, I've seen a number of references to late-70's/early-80's Gibson with the Gibson TP-6 fine-tuning tailpiece, but none with a Schaller? Might have to dig deeper . . .

My friend bought the guitar from the widow of his best friend, who boughht it brand new in 1980. I see no signs of modification.

It's entirely possible that the few Gibson mounting studs I have are from the previous era and that Gibson switched to 9mm fine thread around this time. 
I do have an 1986 Gibson ES-335 that I bought in 1988, with light usage and zero modifications. I've switched the hardware to gold, the guitar is/was Ferrari Red so it just looked cool to be red and gold. 

 

We've agreed to leave the fine tuner tailpiece on it for now. He doesn't really need it with the Ratio tuners, it is very easy to tune accurately with the tuners now. 

Point being that I have time to do research and find correct studs for a solid tailpiece, which in my opinion will sound better because no moving parts and no fugitive threads. 

If/when I have any substantial news, I will post. 

[Winston Psmith]

Sorry to run out on our discussion earlier, but I had a truckload of plants ready to go . . . Home now, getting ready to go sit in the sun, with a nice slow-burning pipe, as "BOB" intended.

 

Back on topic - Here are some photos of my two 2003 SG Specials, Nemesis (Ebony) and Eris (Cherry Red). This is before I pulled the hideous "top-hat" knobs off of Eris, and replaced them with Gibson "speed" knobs. The PU's are still stock, but I've pulled all the other original Gibson hardware, down to the knobs. OTOH, I LOVE the "batwing" pick guards.

 

Both have Schaller roller bridges and Schaller fine-tuning tailpieces installed. The Schaller parts were direct drop-in's, no pulling the old bushings, no fighting with slightly mis-matched threads, no problems whatsoever. I'd previously mounted the same Schaller parts into other Gibson solid-bodies, and in every case, they were a direct drop-in. IDK why none of your stud posts are working?

 

Looking in my Guitar toolbox right now, I see spare bushings, but no stud posts; sorry, brother. If I had any, I'd gladly send them along.

[KuruPrionz]

The tops of the studs are thicker than the Schaller slots and the distance between the bottom of the top part of the stud and the ring that supports the bottom part of the stud is insufficient for the thickness of the tailpiece. Add in that the same 9mm nut that threaded easily and perfectly onto the stud I pulled from my friend's Gibson will not thread onto the Gibson stud that I had, it would go part way on and then get stuck, like the threads were almost but not quite the same pitch. 

 

I have a stash of parts that goes back decades and most of it just got tossed into boxes randomly with no documentation. A few years back I started sorting and labelling in sandwich bags to make life a bit simpler. I don't have documentation as to what is what or when anything was made. 

 

Fortunately, none of this is urgent. I just wanted to see if I could learn anything useful from my friends on Guitar Forum. I appreciate all responses and attempts!!!! 😇

[Caevan O’Shite]

4 hours ago, Winston Psmith said:

This is before I pulled the hideous "top-hat" knobs off of Eris, and replaced them with Gibson "speed" knobs.

Hey! I like 'em... ! Thanks again, Winston. I still have them, in a safe place. They WILL be put to good use- when I have the guitar they're right for. I just didn't get that Epiphone Riviera Custom P93- yet...
 

 

4 hours ago, Winston Psmith said:

...my two 2003 SG Specials, Nemesis (Ebony) and Eris (Cherry Red).

Nice names...   💛✨ 

[Winston Psmith]

Ah, yes, the Apple of Discord!

 

@KuruPrionz- Sorry I couldn't be more help. This one has me stumped, honestly, because the Schaller parts have always been direct drop-in replacements for me, and I've been using them in my various Gibson Guitars since around 1990?

 

@Caevan O’Shite - I'm glad you have, or will have, a use for them, brother! They always reminded me of knobs off of an old radio, and somehow just didn't look right on a Guitar.

 

[KuruPrionz]

3 hours ago, Winston Psmith said:

 

@KuruPrionz- Sorry I couldn't be more help. This one has me stumped, honestly, because the Schaller parts have always been direct drop-in replacements for me, and I've been using them in my various Gibson Guitars since around 1990?

 

No worries, my friend. I appreciate your efforts and insight. I'm 66 and started fixing guitars when I was 16 or so - 50 years of guitar teching and this is new to me!!!

My friend doesn't mind having the tuner tailpiece, it was my idea to swap it out with a solid bar. Whenever I see fugitive threads that are not needed I try to make them go away. 

No need for fine tuners with the Graph Tec Ratio tuners, they've got that taken care of already. They are locking tuners too, best by far for gigging. I have Sperzel and Hip Shot locking tuners on my giggers and I only take one now because string changes are so fast. They are also rare, despite my tendency to leave strings on for months until they are just about shot. 

[Caevan O’Shite]

5 hours ago, Winston Psmith said:

Ah, yes, the Apple of Discord!

Which Eris created, with  "KALLISTI" emblazoned upon it, and rolled into service in accord with her schemes of discord...   

Ya got a great theme goin' there, with a great pair of guitars...   

Play it pretty for Atlantis. And give a shout-out to Hagbard Celine and the Dolphins.
 

  

5 hours ago, Winston Psmith said:

@Caevan O’Shite - I'm glad you have, or will have, a use for them, brother! They always reminded me of knobs off of an old radio, and somehow just didn't look right on a Guitar.

They'd look GREAT- on the right guitar. Eventually, they're very likely to go on one of these when I finally get one- they'd better match the rest of the parts in the overall scheme than the stock gold ones (turned out, Jimmy Vivino thought likewise):