Low Profile 2nd Keyboard

[Dr88s]

I have a Numa Compact. I love its portability, low profile construction, and built in speakers for getting things set up at home.

 

As a sound generator the organ doesn"t work for me compared to my NS2. The drive is especially grating.

 

I have used it as a controller for my NS2 in dual KB mode and it played along really nicely. I didn"t try to use its action for organ as I had the waterfall keyboard on top.

 

This probably didn"t answer your question, but in any event that"s my experience.

[AnotherScott]

Here's my problem with the Keylab, and others in a similar vein: I'm going to mount it directly below my Stage 3, with everything beyond the actual keys hidden below the Stage's front. There will be at most a 1" gap between the two keyboards, vertically -- preferably, much less.

...

In my particular -- and maybe, unique? -- situation, any knobs, switches, display, etc. that aren't located in the same horizontal line with the keys will be value-less; and maybe even a downside, if they stick up above the case. This automatically puts most feature-filled master keyboards at a disadvantage, along with Electros, digital pianos, the new Vox Conti, etc. The Numa Compact 2 has a small advantage, because all of the controls are clustered into about a 1" strip above the keys.

Here's the Vox Contiental, configured with an NS3 just as you'd want it:

 

 

I have some rubber stoppers preventing the weight of the Nord from resting directly on the knobs of the Vox.

 

Like the Numa Compact2 advantage you describe, even though most of the Vox's controls are covered, I still have access to its patch select buttons, which are located directly above its keys. For live use, that's all I need, in order to access any of its sounds I might like. (There are sounds in the Vox that are better than anything in the Nord, including electric pianos, strings, and brass.) I also have one of those buttons programmed to silence. When I invoke that patch and engage Dual KB on the Nord above, teh Vox acts strictly as the Nord's "lower manual."

 

I don't care about the controls I'm covering, because for this use, I have no need to access them. They are still valuable at home, pre-gig, because all those controls are useful for programming in the sounds I'm going to want. But at the gig, all I need to get to is the set of buttons I need to call up the sounds I've already programmed into them.

 

Bonus: The action is better than the TP/8O action in the Nord.

 

The only downside is it's beyond your preferred budget. But it does give you an additional/backup sound source as well.

 

For a lightweight, non-hammer action, keep-the-manuals-close-to-each-other scenario, under the NS3, that would be my board of choice, budget permitting.

 

If weight were no issue, and I wanted to reduce the budget, I could probably be persuaded to also look at one of the older clonewheels, like a Roland VK8, Korg CX3, or Hammond XK1. The Roland's action is especially nice. The older of the digital CX3s, with the slightly lipped keys, actually felt better to me than the later waterfall, which appears to be a stock Fatar TP/8O, as is the XK1. So those feel very much like what's in the Nord, though they are less haveily sprung.

[drawbars]

Hey Scott,

 

Thanks for your thoughts. My situation is really unique, I suspect, compared to the rest of the list. I live in semi-rural central MA, where gig venues are in short supply, and the pay isn't fantastic. I am gigging as a kind of '1-man band,' using MIDI to add enough parts to sound like a much bigger act. Behind the scenes, I program drum parts; record bass, extra keys, and guitar parts; arrange strings and horns in SampleTank 4; and even pre-record backup harmonies on some songs. It's working out well, but there is the downside of one man to schlep all the gear! So, I'm considering size and weight in my decisions, too.

 

My rig is centered around a Gator 12U rolling rack (12U front and back, 8U on top) with a laptop in the top bay. It's the perfect height for the stage, and I have 70-80% of the wiring permanently attached in the rack. I can set up my gear, including a stereo, bi-amped PA capable of outdoor gigs, in less than 20 minutes; and I only need 1 AC outlet for power. A pair of powered subs and 10" powered EV mains complete the setup. I have an extra pair of subs for big outdoor venues, and some small Chauvet light trees for dark stages. (The lighting is MIDI controlled through Cakewalk.)

 

I moved to the Stage because a) it has a built-in synth, so I can retire my DSI Tetra modules; b) it can provide two pianos or synths at once, making it easier to handle background parts; and c) it uses two less mixer channels than my pair of Electros. (I run everything stereo, and have done so since 1988.) Doing this will remove 5-6lb of rack weight; maybe 12-15lb, if I can get down to one digital mixer in the rack. Doesn't sound like much, but I've got the rack down to about 75-80lb now. That's a little too much for this 66-year-old, but another 5-6 lbs might be the ticket.

 

I've considered using older clones; in fact, a CX3 v2 would work well. (I really like the TP/8O, even as a piano controller.) However, the CX3's cabinet is particle board, and way heavier than necessary. Also, CX3s are starting to get old, and I've heard of enough stuck-boot problems to make me shy away. I could keep one of my Electros, but it seems like a waste for just a MIDI controller. I'd really like to get the 2nd keyboard both smaller and lighter.

 

You mentioned that your setup is "just as [i'd] want it," but at the risk of being nit-picky, it's not: the distance between the two manuals is around 2x my goal. Extra knobs and switches thwart this effort, which is why I'm not sure about keyboards like the Arturia, and even the Numa Compact. I did some mockups of the Stage with various controllers --

 

http://wahler.us/fatar/NS3_Keystation_88_MK3_s.jpghttp://wahler.us/fatar/NS3_GXP88_s.jpghttp://wahler.us/fatar/NS3_Numa_2_s.jpg

 

http://wahler.us/fatar/NS3_Keystation_61_MK3_s.jpghttp://wahler.us/fatar/NS3_GXP61_s.jpg

 

It seems that the 88-key models actually allow for sore exposed controls on the left. It's also unclear if the Numa's controls will stay out of the way of the Stage's rubber feet.

[AnotherScott]

You mentioned that your setup is "just as [i'd] want it," but at the risk of being nit-picky, it's not: the distance between the two manuals is around 2x my goal.

Ah. I said that because of where you said "The Numa Compact 2 has a small advantage, because all of the controls are clustered into about a 1" strip above the keys" -- so I though a small exposed panel there would be acceptable (the patch select buttons are actually closer to the keys on the Vox than any patch selection facility is on the Numa... i.e. you could use the board's own sounds while keeping the boards closer than you could if the bottom board were the Numa). That said, you could also completely cover the controls on the Vox, if either you had no intention of using its sounds at all (except maybe as backup if the Nord failed), or if you were to use MIDI to invoke its sounds from the EXT function on the Nord (or from something else in your rig). I now know, you also have your rack of goodies, but you also said about the Numa earlier that it "would be nice to have a backup" so sounds presumably have some value. But I do understand, in the scenario you describe, it's hard to justify spending that much more compared to what you might just be able to find a set of keys for.

[drawbars]

Scott et al,

 

I really appreciate all of the suggestions made on this list (honestly!), and I hope I haven't rained too hard on anyones' suggestions. I tend to work out why a certain plan won't work in my head while considering it, which might make me look like a PIA, sometimes.

 

Anyway, here's my whole rack:

• Dell 17" laptop with Cakewalk by BandLab, SampleTank 4, MidiOx (yes, it still works in Win10!)
  
• 7-port USB hub and 4-port Ethernet switch
  
• Alesis SR18 drum machine
  
• Yamaha TX802
  
• pair of DSI Tetras, linked as one 8-voice synth
  
• ESI Decabox MIDI-to-DMX lighting controller
  
• M-Audio 4x4 MIDI
  
• TC Helicon Talk Box, used for vocoder, and um .. talk box!
  
• pair of Midas MR12 mixers, one for PA, one for keys
  
• XLR patchbay for quick connects
  

Each component has a musical/performance purpose, and a size and weight cost. Weight is the biggest deal: the entire rack is 75+ lbs., and kind of big and bulky. I've added 6" air-filled casters, which make climbing stairs easier; and have spent $$ trading off steel shelves and blank rack panels for aluminum ones, heavy USB and network pieces for lighter ones, etc. If I can get it down to ~60lbs., I think I could manage to get it in and out of my van without a helper -- which usually is my poor wife! So, every module, mixer, etc. that I can remove helps. The Stage will likely eliminate the Tetras, might remove one mixer, and maybe trade the 4x4 MIDI box for a 2x2. Again, it's a game of baby steps.

 

The keyboard gear enters the picture, too. After lugging 'the beast' (my wife's term) and a couple of active subs, I'm getting tired and sweaty. Nord keyboards are way better than the BX-3 and SP4-7 I used to carry; and a 12-lb. master keyboard would make things even better. So is needing less cables and/or shorter ones. Light, small keyboards have an edge over heavier/larger ones, even if they sacrifice some functionality. As I mentioned, I could have lived with a Doepfer D3M! I don't know if I really need a backup piece (ex: Numa): it's more a comfort factor.

 

The Mojo Lower Manual would have been a great solution (it's pretty lightweight) -- except for the technical hurdles. The Arturia stuff looks great, but doesn't stack well. So, I think I'm down to the M-Audio or Nextar 88s, and maybe the Numa.

[drawbars]

Here's my follow-up:

 

I whittled it down to the M-Audio KS 88 Mk3 and the Nektar GXP88, and chose ... ... the Numa Compact 2!

 

Why??? Forgetting about the onboard sounds -- which aren't stellar, but most are quite useable -- the Numa has a better thought-out master keyboard setup than either M-Audio or Nektar provides -- at least, for gigging on stage. Things like setting split points, selecting MIDI channels, and mapping controls to MIDI CC are straightforward. And the TP/9P action, while not perfect, was good enough for Roland's A-3x series, probably superior to the mystery keybeds the others use. If the keyboard had no internal sounds, I'd be prepared to pay $400 or so for it, just as a MIDI master keyboard.

 

It also has a real display vs. a PC/Mac app; Studiologic provides additional sounds for download into the 1G of onboard memory; and the MIDI out can be merged with the MIDI In, which could make the stage setup easier. It even supports half-pedal sustain. I could have easily used it for a sub gig I did a couple of weeks ago.

 

________

I learned a bit about the Compact 2 series, which might help others here who are considering it. The base Compact 2 is a sample-only sound engine (plus some effects processing). If you want modeled organ and synth, you have to add $200USD and get the Compact 2x. I don't think the 2x's organ rivals the Numa Organ, and the 30mm 'drawbars' are kind of a joke. Nor does the modeling synth rival the one in my Stage, but both engines are far more adjustable and varied than the sounds in the Compact 2. If you want a stage piano that can also do some rudimentary organ and synth sounds now and then, the '2 will do that; if you want things like adjustable key click and percussion, and a better (but not great) Leslie sim, or significant modification to your synth sounds to dial in a signature sound, you want the '2x.

 

I also learned that the downloadable sound sets of the two varieties are NOT compatible. This is a shame, because Studiologic offers a pretty nice Bosendorfer Imperial for the '2x, but apparently, not the '2.

 

[EDIT] I forgot arguably the best extra feature of the '2x: In addition to the two split parts, there are two 'ghost' parts that can be accessed through MIDI. So, one could play piano and organ (or dual-manual organ) on the Numa, and a sequencer could play bass and drums.

 

________

Thanks again for all the insights and opinions here!