Prog kid rules Mozart today!

[uhoh7]

The prog loving son of a Baptist minister, John Mortensen, is now considered by many to be the greatest living master of authentic improvisation in the style of Mozart and Bach. He tells us all about it in this interview, which might explode your mind like a prog solo.

 

Shoot me, I was never nuts about prog, prefering the blues/folk and funk genres prior. Maybe cause I was born in 57. But I know there are many big fans of prog here, not to mention more than a few who can blaze in prog fashion. I think you guys might love this story, at the heart of the current revival of 18th century improvisation, which was the rule, not the exception of professional players at that time, we now are coming to learn. The figured bass lead sheets actually ruled the day.

 

Mortensen has played plenty of Jazz along the way. You hear all about the lead sheets of the day, and many other aspects of being a keyboardist in 1760. Every little town had to have a couple If you can spare the time to hear it, please share your impression

 

Maybe one of the most interesting keyboardist interviews you ever heard:

https://www.nikhilhogan.com/podcast/episode/c47c8f86/31-john-mortensen

 

His new book on Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/Pianists-Guide-Historic-Improvisation/dp/0190920408/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=john+mortensen&qid=1610902725&sr=8-1

 

I'm such a miser, I don't buy that many books, when I do they are usually used, despite that, I've collected a few over the years. I bought this one today.

 

Bottomline: by the late 20th century developing a large repitoire was the central focus of most conservatories. Of course, what else? But in the time of Bach the focus of music education was not repitoire, but improvisation within clearly defined rules, much closer in concept to lead sheet Jazz than most of us would imagine. Not least because of the cost of paper: a lead sheet is cheaper than a score as we all know. A "figured bass line" was harmonized as we might harmonise a major or minor, but with different rules: i.e. no minor second, instead a finite series of chords were associated with each step often different ascending and descending: the "rule of Octaves". Right off the batt every keyboardist student learned these basic rules, which in 1990 were even more arcane than the rules of counterpoint. There is a big revival of the "old school" now and conservatories are changing. Mortensen explains the revival in a clear and entertaining fashion.

 

Example of a figured bass line:

 

 

Working pros in 1760 seldom saw a full score. Most performance was guided by these sheets and the training to understand them.

 

Same interview as above but on YT:

[video:youtube]https://youtu.be/NURA-0N_Blg

[Redknife]

Nice find. Enjoyed the podcast. Might get the book. Thx

[GRollins]

I was born in '57. Love prog. Yes, Jethro Tull, and ELP are top of my list (along with Zeppelin...and I've seen it argued that Zeppelin's Kashmir and No Quarter, amongst others, are prog...discuss...).

 

Whatever I do, I've always been drawn to the segment that pushes the limits of what's possible. Endless 1-4-5 progressions on bass are fatal to my mind. (Don't forget, I started as a bass player.) Don't tell me, "Stay in the pocket, BOY!" Those are just code words for 'you're a second class citizen, don't play anything faster than a quarter note. Ever.' Fuck that. Give me something to chew on, something that challenges me, something that makes me grow as a musician. Prog and fusion jazz fit the bill. Anyone who wants to sit in an easy chair and play the same stuff they've always played is welcome to do so--music is a broad umbrella and there's room for that, too--but that's not for me.

 

I'm short on time--mirabile dictu, the gods have granted me a couple of hours to work on a piece that's been dogging me for over a year now and I need to get some bass and percussion going--but I promise to give the interview a listen later today.

 

Grey

[stoken6]

Don't tell me, "Stay in the pocket, BOY!" Those are just code words for 'you're a second class citizen, don't play anything faster than a quarter note. Ever.' Fuck that. Give me something to chew on, something that challenges me, something that makes me grow as a musician.

Brother Grey, I say this with total respect, as a keyboardist/MD/arranger who also plays bass: pocket is the most important quality for a musician to bring to a pop/rock performance. It doesn't mean you can't play more than a 1/4 note. (Prog in 7/8 would be difficult, for a start).

 

I've been doing some casual recording/multitracking as a way to express a musical outlet during lockdown - and it's highlighted how sucky and out-of-the-pocket my time is.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[uhoh7]

I was born in '57. Love prog. Yes, Jethro Tull, and ELP are top of my list (along with Zeppelin...and I've seen it argued that Zeppelin's Kashmir and No Quarter, amongst others, are prog...discuss...).

 

Whatever I do, I've always been drawn to the segment that pushes the limits of what's possible. Endless 1-4-5 progressions on bass are fatal to my mind. (Don't forget, I started as a bass player.) Don't tell me, "Stay in the pocket, BOY!" Those are just code words for 'you're a second class citizen, don't play anything faster than a quarter note. Ever.' Fuck that. Give me something to chew on, something that challenges me, something that makes me grow as a musician. Prog and fusion jazz fit the bill. Anyone who wants to sit in an easy chair and play the same stuff they've always played is welcome to do so--music is a broad umbrella and there's room for that, too--but that's not for me.

 

I'm short on time--mirabile dictu, the gods have granted me a couple of hours to work on a piece that's been dogging me for over a year now and I need to get some bass and percussion going--but I promise to give the interview a listen later today.

 

Grey

 

Ouch! From you sir, I take that as a challenge to improve my taste!

 

Here is a follow-up interview 2-years later. If you enjoy the first one, you'll love this one (don't miss the last 15 mins). They are complimentary, in the first one, above, you hear about his childhood etc, below you hear about his adventures bringing these ideas to conservatories in Ireland, Latvia, and the UK, and how the book is laid out to be played, not just read in the armchair

 

[video:youtube]https://youtu.be/JKD4zGkbtGQ

 

I probably should have made a thread title like: "Bach style improv makes comeback....." But I figured pushing local buttons would have more effect More than just an inspiring revolutionary, he is a player: like you guys. He thinks like a player and he talks like a player

 

I'm clawing my way in that direction.....

[GRollins]

Brother Grey, I say this with total respect, as a keyboardist/MD/arranger who also plays bass: pocket is the most important quality for a musician to bring to a pop/rock performance. It doesn't mean you can't play more than a 1/4 note. (Prog in 7/8 would be difficult, for a start).

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

One of the things I've learned over time is that people tend to take their local environment and extrapolate it to include the rest of the world. I'm glad to hear that you live in an area that's more broad-minded. Trust me...'round these parts, 'pocket' means whole, half, or quarter notes. Eighth notes on bass are viewed with extreme suspicion. Sixteenth notes are a clear indication that you're in league with the devil. If they catch you even thinking sixteenth (and somehow, they know...I suspect telepathy), you're out the door. Eighth-thoughts will get you one of those stern "don't get uppity" lectures, after which you're on probation--better keep your head down for, like, a week. Better still, a month. Be humble. Say 'sir' a lot when spoken to. Eyes to the floor.

 

If things are better where you are, rejoice. Don't take it for granted. If I mention Yes, ELP, Tull, or the word 'prog,' all conversation stops and I get cold stares. I don't get to play with anyone. And if I've somehow remembered to keep my damn fool mouth shut long enough to get in the door, those words will get me shown right back out should I forget myself and utter them out loud. Yea, verily, 7/8 time signature is the work of the very devil himself. Abandon hope, all ye who enter here.

 

Grey

[GRollins]

Ouch! From you sir, I take that as a challenge to improve my taste!

 

It is not my intention to try to change anyone's mind about the music they like. As I said above, music's a broad umbrella. There's room for a lot of different folks. All I can tell people is what I like and attempt to articulate why; that can be hard--it took me years to figure out why I gravitated to certain kinds of music and not to others. It's rare that other peoples', "Man, I can't believe you don't like [fill in the blank]. You really need to listen to them," works out for me. To this day, I remember a fellow getting in my face about Supertramp. He had me so doubting my own taste that I even went out and bought an album or two. But...Supertramp just doesn't work for me. Why, I do not know. They just don't. Accordingly, I try not to force my tastes on others.

 

I like some bands that wouldn't seem to fit my tastes, like early Grand Funk Railroad. After I thought about it, I realized that it wasn't Mark Farner's guitar playing (though I still maintain that he had an excellent voice), it was Mel Schacher's bass playing that caught my ear. Once I found the key, it demystified a lot of things that I hadn't understood before. Gimme someone who's pushing things and I'll give it a try. Rush is a counterexample, unfortunately. I like the instrumental part of their music, but simply cannot abide Geddy Lee's singing. Rats. Strike them off the list even though, on paper, they would seem to be an ideal fit for my tastes. So...there are other forces at work besides just musicianship.

 

Please don't do prog unless it reaches you inside. Don't let me do a "Supertramp" on you. Find something that makes sense to you and follow it for as long as it makes you happy...and no further. Then find something else and follow that.

 

Grey

[GRollins]

I'm half-way through the first interview and I'm having trouble reconciling Mortensen's light-hearted and humorous persona with that scowly picture they chose for YouTube. What a contrast...

 

A great deal of what Mortensen's saying is over my head, but the parts I can follow are quite interesting. I think if I go through a second time and keep hitting pause about every second or third sentence to let what he's saying sink in that I'll get more out of it, but that's going to take a lot of time.

 

Grey

[uhoh7]

Ouch! From you sir, I take that as a challenge to improve my taste!

 

It is not my intention to try to change anyone's mind about the music they like.

Grey

 

I meant that "Ouch" very lightheartedly and took no offensive, on the contrary. Your input made me realise I have been a prog fan from junior high. I can remember like yesterday my first albums....these were very dear at the shop. My fav was JethroTull, I have it around here someplace. Aqualung and Locomotive breath were anthems to me. God, I am a prog fan!

 

I incorrectly asscociated "prog" with some of the later stuff I did not bond with at the time. I would still have the genre wrong if you hadn't given me a little S! Of course Jethro Tull is prog. I simply had not considered it, but.....I grow

 

Here is why many muscians think the whole genre thing is maybe not the greatest. What about the Doors?

 

I would not have called them prog in any respect, as I hear a lot of blues in there, but Manzarek is fully prog now that I think of it. Maybe they were prog on blues

 

Thank you. I needed that. And speaking of the pocket, I like Mortensen's account of when he was able to transfer from comp to performance and then getting "his butt kicked" (in a good way) by his woman prof: "Count four beats!! Why do you need a college professor to tell you to read?"

 

But the interview had me studying up on the 18th century lead sheets, "figured bass". One fundamental difference from ireal is the specificity of inversion. Anyone learning "cadences" hits this of course. Self taught folks, like me, blow right by to "learning all the inversions of C" as if they were really all C. The fundamental differences are obscured by the change in register (to me untill now).

 

If I demand C4 be my tonic and play the inversions I get C, C6 or Am, and F or Dm7 w/o the root. Sonically, to my ears the inversions really are a different chord. This helps me get my shorthand together as I learn to improvise better. I become more open to to thinking of Dm7 as an F6, which is how Barry Harris teaches improv. Play IV6 VIIdim Imaj. The 3 dims are the first thing you learn, so that VIIdim is a no brainer to hit on on the fly. The F6 has same notes as Dm7, and it"s the IV, which is one of the 'big three', IE the I the IV and the V. The goal of this kind of simplification is it can actually work on the flyâ¦in the pocket. Modesâ¦â¦.not so easy. Chord tones, yes. So that IV6 VIIdim Imaj is ii7 Vflat9 Imaj.

 

This thinking also gives an origin to the flat 9, common in jazz, otherwise quite mysterious.

 

OK I'm inspired, back to the shed.

[GRollins]

I've never understood what constitutes "prog." I grew up calling Yes and Emerson, Lake, and Palmer "classical rock." Jethro Tull was regarded as rock or hard rock, those being separate categories at the time. Then came "classic rock" radio and suddenly I started hearing the term prog, which I had never heard before, though apparently it had been in use in other parts of the country for a while. My supposition is that classical rock and classic rock were too similar and the term prog won out.

 

So...what's prog? I still don't know to this day. Suddenly Genesis was prog, which I guess I can kinda understand. And Kansas...okay, yeah, I can follow that, I guess. But Jethro Tull ended up in the prog bin, too, and that I've never understood. However, it has been decreed by the gods that Tull is prog and who am I to argue? But why isn't Santana prog?

 

It helps unravel some mysteries, though, because suddenly a lot of the bands that I loved were in the same category. Maybe there's a common thread after all: Me. Just look at what Grey likes and toss it in the prog bin. (Actually, I'm on record as saying that prog is the classification they use when a band doesn't clearly fit into any other bin.)

 

I've always wanted to tuck Iron Butterfly into prog. If prog is defined as "a song that takes up an entire side of an album," then I'll point to In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida. If it's odd scales, then a lot of IB songs used Arabic scales or possibly minor Gypsy in spots--very experimental. Your mention of inversions of chords called to mind the rolling inversions of Dm that open In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida. I always thought that was a clever way to tuck a lot of notes into a tidy bundle without sounding boring.

 

Grey