Vienna Symphonic Library releases Steinway D Synchron Stage

[Mark Schmieder]

OK, I have posted some questions in their forum. It is always a risk to do that late at night, even after careful proof-reading, because the language barrier can often result in someone feeling insulted.

[Mark Schmieder]

The good thing about posting late at night is that one often gets an immediate response.

 

Their core software developer has already said that a lot of disc access still happens after the initial load, and that my limiting factor is the HDD not the RAM. So even though I should upgrade the RAM soon as well, getting the library onto an SSD is by far the top priority.

 

To avoid daisy-chaining via a hub (the iMac has limited ports), I'd have to time-share an external drive's port with Time Machine, which might not be a bad thing as it would "remind" me to shut down TM during recording work -- something I often forget to do, and which can cause hiccups in the DAW.

 

I may as well try copying to the SSD/Fusion drive first though, as I can always delete if it doesn't help. I'd just have to temporarily remove the HDD copies from the Directory Manager and replace with the internal drive references.

 

I have to get up early, so I'll check SSD drive sales tomorrow morning and see if I can get an order placed that would arrive before the holidays.

 

The two Synchron Pianos, as full libraries, take over 540 GB currently, and the other Synchron Player libraries (standard edition only; I don't do surround sound and the down-mixes for those aren't critical as they are for the piano libraries), take up slightly over 410 GB at the moment.

 

As one should never run close to the bone, even if no more libraries will be added later, that sounds like a 2 TB solution is the best idea.

 

I have well over 1.5 TB free on the internal drive, so just copying the Steinway library and nothing else, would at least help over the next few days, and maybe even until February when typically there's a bit of a temporary price drop on drives.

[Mark Schmieder]

I just checked my no-longer-used PCIe SSD, and it's bigger than I remembered:

 

OWC Mercury Accelsior E2, 480 GB

 

So perhaps it's a good idea to buy an enclosure that can host this card after all. I looked into it last year but wasn't sure it'd be worth it.

 

More likely, I can get faster buss speed using a different connection protocol such as USB-C (aka Thunderbolt 3), via a new SSD drive purchase.

[Mark Schmieder]

When I bought this computer last year, my only option was retail stores due to the five day holiday weekend (4 July) and not having any way to reach the internet with a dead computer (I do not have a Smart Phone).

 

It was hard going back and forth between Fry's and Best Buy and trying to make a rational, informed decision. But what I noticed then, was that Thunderbolt 3 drives were way more expensive and performed way slower -- what I was told was that the "promise" of 40 GB/s vs. the 5 GB/s of USB3, was still a long ways off.

 

So well over a year later, I check specs again, and USB-C/TB3 seems like it is not much faster, as originally promised, and relatively the same price or maybe even cheaper than USB3 (on the way out).

 

I wasn't looking at SSD's this past weekend though; this was before the surprise release of the Steinway B, when I was just thinking of going up to 12 TB for my Sample Library drive as I was close to the bone. Instead, I move unused libraries to another drive that has plenty of free space.

 

With the MacPro, the SSD made a huge difference, for the system drive, but I never got around to going that route for the other internal drives due to cost (at that time).

[Nathanael_I]

USB3 isn't going anywhere for years. It is faster than any SATA6 SSD drive, so I wouldn't let that stop you. You can always buy a different enclosure and put the drive in it if you need something different later. Once you use samples off an SSD, you will never go back. The difference is NOT subtle. Many libraries only work properly when streamed from one. I suspect that developers just assume that, but have no real knowledge. On Kontakt libraries, you can lower the pre-load buffer when using SSD and that reduces RAM needs somewhat.

 

Those excelsior cards are PCIe. I wouldn't buy an enclosure for it - its cheaper to buy a new drive with an easier interface. If you have important data on it though.... But with 480GB drives way under $100, I don't think you can buy a good PCIe interface box for that much..

[Mark Schmieder]

With the old 2010 MacPro, I went almost straight away to SSD for the system drive, but due to expense, never did that for sample libraries. But I could cherry-pick what I actually use to start with, and eventually find time (lots of it, unfortunately) to figure out resale policies (when available) on the stuff I don't use.

 

There was no going back on the system drive after switching to SSD's either... until the machine died and I had to go with an iMac during a holiday weekend time crunch. I was hoping the Fusion Drive would be an improvement on a standard HDD, for applications, and I think it probably is, but I never put my data on the system drive and it wouldn't help in this case anyway so for the Synchron Pianos I will simply need to get a TB3 SSD drive of 2 TB or greater.

 

[Mark Schmieder]

OWC prices are still pretty much what I saw over the past year, with a $2000+ investment required for 2 TB, resulting in the $12,000 I quoted for 12 TB of SSD.

 

I've looked at ALL of their options, and NONE are remotely cheap. So I'll see if Amazon has a well-organized listing. I've had really bad experiences with New Egg over the years so won't use them again. I won't go into it here.

[Mark Schmieder]

I see already that Amazon's filtering is as bad as a couple of years ago, so it is very time-consuming to use them for computer-based stuff still.

 

The price factor overall is about 1/4 of OWC, which in turn is about the same ratio to Apple direct sales for their pre-approved upgrades. :-)

 

Not sure if it's a good idea just to walk into a Fry's or Best Buy, as they probably don't have competitive prices for stuff like this. I had no choice last summer due to when my old system died.

[Mark Schmieder]

I'm finding good 2TB SSD options from G-Tech, Glyph, and SanDisk (all brands that I trust), for $500 or less, that seem to be Thunderbolt-based but it's not clear in the case of the SanDisk even though I don't think USB-C is used for other than Thunderbolt delivery (maybe also for USB 3.1 v2, which isn't as fast?).

 

Crazy that the OWC stuff is so expensive, and also includes a fan, which is a no-go in the studio, of course.

 

Some of the products won't arrive before Christmas, which is also a deal-breaker, as we just found out late today that we have an end-of-year shutdown (most years we do, but it's a surprise this year due to how busy we are, yet it also makes sense as the two holidays interrupt both weeks and hurt productivity).

 

As I have to get up at 6am tomorrow, I'm not sure I can go through the stuff I marked on the first nine pages of an Amazon search and come to a conclusion tonight, but feel I must or I risk up to a two week delay in delivery due to the holidays.

[Mark Schmieder]

As usual, I throw my hands up in despair at incomplete and competing or conflicting specs.

 

Apple claims the iMac from 2017 can reach speeds of up to 40 Gbps on its Thunderbolt ports, which connect using USB-C, but the drives that say they "support" Thunderbolt seem to be 1% of that speed at most, so may simply allow "compatible transfer" via special converter cables.

 

I suppose the published read/write speeds are the ones to look at, when given (and usually they are NOT listed), to really understand whether the SSD in question will be a significant jump from the current HDD's (which I could connect to the OWC Thunderbolt 3 Dock now that they replaced my faulty one that was shutting down all the time, but I keep forgetting to try that again so currently the HDD's connect via USB 3.0).

 

In some cases at Amazon, it's not even clear whether the published storage size is what the enclosure is capable of, or what is included in the deal. This is where computer specialist vendors are probably a better way to go, for certainty of what one is actually getting, and its compatibility.

 

After more research and culling though, most were false hits and not SSD's, but of those that match the necessary specs, the transfer speed is roughly 450 MB/s which is roughly twice an HDD's speed -- probably not what the Vienna folks are expecting us to have for Synchron Player use.

 

https://www.amazon.com/BlackBox-Plus-USB-C-Thunderbolt-BBPLSSD2000/dp/B075833YQS/ref=sr_1_21?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1544596223&sr=1-21&keywords=ssd+thunderbolt+3

 

https://www.amazon.com/G-Technology-0G06052-G-Drive-Portable-Storage/dp/B0765LJWFZ/ref=sr_1_10?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1544596223&sr=1-10&keywords=ssd%2Bthunderbolt%2B3&th=1

 

https://www.amazon.com/SanDisk-2TB-Extreme-Portable-SDSSDE60-2T00-G25/dp/B078T9SZ3K/ref=sr_1_4?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1544596223&sr=1-4&keywords=ssd+thunderbolt+3

 

https://www.amazon.com/Samsung-T5-Portable-SSD-MU-PA1T0B/dp/B073H4GPLQ/ref=sr_1_3?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1544596223&sr=1-3&keywords=ssd%2Bthunderbolt%2B3&th=1

 

https://www.amazon.com/Seagate-External-Reversible-Type-C-STCM1000400/dp/B07DX7D744/ref=sr_1_21?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1544596518&sr=1-21&keywords=ssd%2Bthunderbolt%2B3&th=1

 

https://www.amazon.com/G-Technology-G-DRIVE-mobile-Pro-0G10311/dp/B07CTJN2PV/ref=sr_1_36?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1544596518&sr=1-36&keywords=ssd+thunderbolt+3

 

The bottom link has a rating 4x the others -- probably because it isn't designed specifically for rugged and mobile use (which I don't need). But a customer review on the 500 GB version says transfer speed was half what is stated. Even so, that would be faster than the others linked above it.

 

One thing's for sure, and that is that SSD's bigger than 2 TB are rare, and enclosures for multiple drives (to stack 2 TB drives, of course) are expensive. You quickly get up towards a dollar per Gigabyte ($1000 per Terrabyte) once you go beyond 2 TB.

 

Maybe after the early morning meeting tomorrow, I can quickly scan New Egg just to get an idea of full coverage of what's available and compatible. Supplies are low (down to one unit) for most of what I listed above also.

[MoodyBluesKeys]

I've been satisfied fully using the higher end Crucial SSD drives. They have a life rating considerably higher than the lower cost stuff, and are still WAY lower than OWC. Crucial is owned by Micron, who makes the memory used. The MX500 series is their current high end drive, and is available in a variety of sizes. Note that this is for the bare drives, so some sort of enclosure is needed that connects by whatever method you choose.

Most of my computers, both Mac and PC are currently equipped with them. You will never go back to spinning drives.

 

[Mark Schmieder]

Good point that SSD's are more like memory than typical hard drives, so the best vendors might be the ones who do memory. I had noticed SanDisk in the mix but didn't see Crucial pop up in the first nine pages of Amazon hits, so will look directly now that I know they make SSD's.

 

It's unfortunately VERY time-consuming to search for individual things to put together a working and compatible drive + enclosure on my own, that is also compatible in a way that doesn't cut the transfer speed, and due to the surprise announcement of end-of-year shutdown at work yesterday, I have even less time than usual to do the research, make a decision, and hope for a delivery that allows me to use this new library during our down-time.

[Sam CA]

I have a number of Samsung Pro SSD drives that I use for Keyscape, Ivory II and Kontakt instruments. They're awesome but not exactly cheap. I got a PC tower so it's so convenient to open the top and drop in a new drive. I do have an older MBP but I only use it for tracking.

[Mark Schmieder]

It seems that the premium on performance is higher than I thought, once one reads all the fine print. But these are the most complete specs I've seen on any product so far, and the Samsung price is just over half of something equivalent from OWC:

 

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16820147727

 

Based on what is said there, I would probably get a six-fold improvement in performance vs. an HDD, if I instead buy one of the drives linked earlier, that is half or less of the price of the one above.

 

Everything greater than 2 TB gets back to the $1000 per TB pricing curve, regardless of vendor and even if putting together individual blades in a custom enclosure.

[Sam CA]

...

 

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16820147727

 

...

 

Seems like an overkill for just one library, unless you stream multiple heavy libraries. It'd be perfect for orchestral stuff with surround mics ...4k video editing...etc.

[Mark Schmieder]

As the SanDisk gets better speed ratings than the others, I was going to go for it, then saw all the user reviews about sudden failure shortly after purchase:

 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01127E6RM/ref=psdc_3015429011_t2_B078T9SZ3K

 

So perhaps the Samsung T5 (and more expensive G5) is more reliable, even though way cheaper:

 

https://www.amazon.com/Samsung-T5-Portable-SSD-MU-PA1T0B/dp/B073H4GPLQ/ref=sr_1_3?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1544596223&sr=1-3&keywords=ssd%2Bthunderbolt%2B3&th=1

 

The larger (and more expensive) ones from G-Tech are said to perform at half the rated speed, and as I've had occasional glitches with their HDD's, it is not my top preferred brand overall. Their smaller ones get good ratings though (but are slower).

 

https://www.amazon.com/BlackBox-Plus-USB-C-Thunderbolt-BBPLSSD2000/dp/B075833YQS/ref=sr_1_21?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1544596223&sr=1-21&keywords=ssd+thunderbolt+3

 

The one from Glyph above, might be the safest bet overall, for reliability and consistent performance.

 

 

[Mark Schmieder]

Like I said before, I have over 9 TB of sample libraries altogether, probably 3-4 TB of which is in heavy use (especially the earlier Vienna Symphonic Library stuff, and drum libraries).

 

For now, it seems best to just deal with the current limit on affordable SSD at 2 TB, as the Synchron libraries add up to almost 1 TB and one shouldn't max out a drive plus there will obviously be more Synchron releases next year (and not just Synchronized older libraries, which I am skipping).

 

One of the USB-C based drives mentioned above, seems a better investment for the short term. A year from now, things will hopefully be better for the larger drives and those using the full Thunderbird spec for the interface.

[Mark Schmieder]

The SanDisk Extreme 9090 was released over 3 years ago, so its poor reliability ratings make more sense now. I'll skip that one for sure, in spite of others commenting that it performs better (speed-wise) than the Samsung T5.

 

The Glyph BlackBox Plus is well over two years old, and only has one review, plus a lower speed rating and a higher price than some other equivalent models, as well as a huge enclosure size. So I'll skip that one too.

 

The one listed at NewEgg by Samsung, using full Thunderbolt 3 specs at $1200 (once in the cart), is too much to spend at this point -- switching to all-SSD would require more than 2 TB, so a long-range plan can wait a year or so for prices to fall and available storage size to increase.

 

The Samsung T5 and the G-Tech Mobile SSD are a bit over a year old each, whereas the small SanDisk Extreme with the cutaway corner is under a year old.

 

I remember SanDisk becoming slightly less reliable for camera cards over the years, and this model has issues with there being no way to tightly secure the cable connection as well as running hot, so I'll also skip this model.

 

That takes it down to the Samsung T5, or the G-Tech Mobile, or seeing if I can somehow spend more time looking into a custom solution from Crucial (using an enclosure that can add more 2 TB blades later on).

 

The G-Tech has an M2 type SSD, and has by far the best reviews overall (not surprising as it's the newest device, so probably uses more recent technology than the others).

 

Taking a build-your-own approach with Samsung vs. Crucial (easier and quicker for me to compare and price at the moment, via Amazon for Samsung vs. new Egg for Crucial), there's only about a 10% savings ($100-$200) vs. buying a pre-built enclosure, for the ones that are Thunderbolt 3 and meet the spec pretty closely with an additional 4x speed factor. But the price premium is doubled.

 

I am probably going with the G-Tech Mobile SSD at 2 TB for $530 -- almost $100 more than the almost-equivalent Samsung T5.

[tfort]

I purchased a Crucial MX500 2TB SSD for $330 via one of the Amazon Prime or special sale days back in July. I think I saw $300 prices for 2TB around Black Friday/Cyber Monday and they should still be going on.

 

I've installed SSDs internally in a couple of iMacs now as well as some MacBook Pros, either Crucial or Samsung depending on where the best deal was. The guides at OWC and iFixit are pretty easy to follow.

 

External USB3.1 Gen 2 or Thunderbolt enclosures for a single drive are quite cheap.

 

Re. mac compatibility - I just reformatted the SSDs when they arrived; I went with Apple's newer APFS formatting as it's optimized for SSDs and how they work. You can clone your internal drive to the SSD and then reboot from the SSD in an external enclosure to make sure it works before you open up the iMac.

[Sam CA]

...

 

I've installed SSDs internally in a couple of iMacs now as well as some MacBook Pros, either Crucial or Samsung depending on where the best deal was.....

 

Hmmm so it is possible to have more than one internal SSD in a iMac. How many can you have in there? Any size limits per drive?

 

[tfort]

To install a 2nd, I believe you have to have an older machine and replace the CD-ROM drive. I just replaced the internal HD with an SSD using one of the 3.5" to 2.5" drive adapters.

[Mark Schmieder]

Oh, the compatibility I refer to is strictly the cable and interface aspect; I know that formatting drives is FAIRLY universal (although some are listed "for Windows file system only", strangely).

 

I guess it's possible to install two SSD's inside an iMac, as one would just have to have the right apparatus to connect them both to the same buss, which should be able to handle the throughput and switching fine, but might be slightly specialized and tricky to track down (yet the "how to" pages probably mention these devices and name them in a way that they're not so hard to find).

 

I'd prefer avoiding that for now though, and I've also confirmed that the Fusion Drive is really an HDD that has a tiny flash-based boot section, so it was a typical marketing ploy of Apple's to call it a "hybrid" drive.

 

As I don't know what G-Tech uses inside of theirs, it might be safer to go with Samsung, but I'll also look up the Crucial stuff and see if I can quickly find an enclosure that actually uses either a USB 3.1 rev 2 interface or preferably Thunderbolt 3 for the full throughout capabilities.

 

Co-workers are recommending that I stick with Samsung, but they have no experience with G-tech either. I didn't know that brand until last summer's emergency and having to shuttle between Fry's and Best Buy by car (vs. internet research, due to the sudden death of the MacPro), and at first thought it was the new logo for Glyph.

[Mark Schmieder]

Ah yes I think the CD-ROM drive gets forfeited to add the second SSD in the older Macs; that's what I did previously. But not in the 2017 models as they don't have a CD-ROM drive.

[tfort]

I recall that there was also a generation or two of iMacs that had a second SATA connector inside the iMac if you originally ordered it with an SSD . You'd have to put your iMac's model number into the configurators at iFixit or OWC to see if that's an option on your machine.

[Mark Schmieder]

Wirecutter's late-November review of their top three SSD choices is concise but useful:

 

https://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-ssds/

 

My iMac doesn't have the extra option for a second SSD as I had to take what they had at Best Buy even though I was willing to spend more for on-line options that are available made-to-order.

 

https://ssd.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Samsung-850-Evo-250GB-vs-Crucial-MX300-275GB/2977vs3642

 

Samsung does better than Crucial in real-world benchmarks, so I'll go that route.

[Mark Schmieder]

I'm looking at piecing together a Samsung SSD system on my own, including the PCIe option as those are the faster SSD's at the moment anyway and building my own box is cheaper by a big ratio as well as possibly being able to do a quick stop-gap with my no-longer-used 480 GB SSD PCIe and then upgrading that later while retaining the host box.

[Mark Schmieder]

I have confirmed that G-Tech(nology) is a pretty new brand (just a few years old) and part of the Western Digital family, which might imply what they use inside their SSD's (though my HDD's use DeskStars, formerly by Hitachi, briefly by Toshiba and I think now independent or part of Western Digital).

 

Whatever the case, I have firmly decided to stick with the most trusted brand, which is Samsung. Reliability comes nefore everything.

[Mark Schmieder]

I've finished pricing things out, and most options don't make sense in terms of short-term vs. long-range planning as well as bang-for-buck. For instance, here's a Samsung SSD I could buy and then put in a standard chassis but not get full Thunderbolt 3 speed:

 

https://www.cdw.com/product/Samsung-883-DCT-MZ-7LH1T9NE-solid-state-drive-1.9-TB-SATA-6Gb-s/5179835?pfm=srh

 

I could also upgrade further and go for the highest-end PCIe 3 card:

 

https://www.cdw.com/product/Samsung-983-DCT-MZ-1LB960NE-solid-state-drive-1.9-TB-PCI-Express-3.0/5179708?pfm=srh

 

This could then go in the special chassis by a company I'd never heard of:

 

https://www.cdw.com/product/StarTech.com-Thunderbolt-3-PCIe-Expansion-Chassis-w-DisplayPort-PCIe-x16/4804598?pfm=srh

 

Or go for the M2 version of the SSD from Samsung and use this chassis variant instead:

 

https://www.cdw.com/product/StarTech.com-Thunderbolt-3-to-PCIe-M.2-adapter-Chassis-plus-card/5005462?pfm=srh#PO

 

None of those options are ideal for long-term, and I think I remember the M2 option not looking so good when last I checked a year or so ago, but the Mercury Helios from OWC is still an option:

 

https://eshop.macsales.com/item/OWC/HELIOS1TB3/

 

It's now below $200, which is just over half of its price a year ago. Hosting my existing 480 GB SSD that is not in use, would allow the piano libraries to move to SSD and get better performance, I think, than if I instead buy this standalone external SSD:

 

https://www.amazon.com/Samsung-T5-Portable-SSD-MU-PA1T0B/dp/B073H4GPLQ/ref=sr_1_3?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1544596223&sr=1-3&keywords=ssd%2Bthunderbolt%2B3&th=1

 

So those are the two choices I am down to: the standalone Samsung T5, or the OWC Mercury Helios to host my idled 480 GB Accelsior PCIe 2.0 SSD blade.

 

As the latter option is way cheaper and apparently much faster performance (in spite of using the somewhat older PCIe 2.0 technology), it may be the most sensible option for the short term, until I need a larger SSD, by which time I should see prices drop and also will better know which form factor I want to aim for, such as PCIe M2 vs. PCIe 3.0.

[Mark Schmieder]

Hmm, not sure the Helios can accept PCIe 2.0 blades:

 

https://eshop.macsales.com/item/OWC/SSDPHWE2R480/

 

The Helios spec says "Backward compatible with PCIe 2.0 or 1.0 cards that meet the size requirements listed." I think the specs above, for my Accelsior blade, meet the size requirements.

 

As the top-rated data transfer is only 50% above the standalone Samsung T5 SSD however, I see the benefit of a larger drive that is self-contained and likely more reliable than OWC stuff (I won't go into that at the moment), as an advantage and also trust the throughput of the T5 would be more consistent.

 

I'll take a bit of a breather, for no more than an hour (so as not to miss cutoff times for things getting shipped today), and unless someone gives me a strong reason to think this is not my best move, I will order the Samsung T5 SSD via Amazon today.

 

I'll also finally put my OWC Accelsior up for sale by the weekend; I keep forgetting to do that for well over a year now. I originally wanted to evaluate some heavy-duty four-to-five track overdub sessions (bass or guitar) against 20+ tracks playing back (drums), to make sure the HDD's can keep up, but since that time I have learned that sample libraries are far more critical for SSD's than live recording projects are.

 

Thanks everyone for their input so far -- hopefully this helps a lot of other people as well.

[Mark Schmieder]

I just realized that the Samsung T5 2TB SSD could become my project drive for recordings and photos, in place of the HDD, if I then do another SSD upgrade down the pike. So that's even more reason to take that path now.

 

My combined photos, iTunes, and personal recording projects are on a 2 TB HDD that is barely over 50% full and not growing very quickly, so it would be a good target for a swap, either when I do the next SSD upgrade for the sample library stuff, or if somehow this Samsung T5 isn't enough to meet the demands of the Synchron Pianos.