Casio PX560 (Privia) vs CP4

[Dave Ferris]

I went with the Casio.

 

?

https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2679908/Damn_the_CP4_sounds_great#Post2679908

 

How is Kirk btw ?

 

The Casio has built-in speakers.. and I like the idea of just switching it on and playing. .. and its fun to play with the different accompaniments and the drum machine..

 

I also like the idea of the built in speakers, as well as the rhythm/drum grooves. I'd be curious to know if there was a way to hear them online anywhere. Particularly the swing/jazz and latin grooves.

 

Most everyone knows what I prefer for straight up playing the piano. I can't really add anything that hasn't been said other then to emphasize the importance of the gigging speakers.

 

For live use, It doesn't matter what it is if you don't have quality speakers - preferably running in stereo, unless you are playing higher volume rock/blues gigs.

 

All that said, I'm highly gassing for a pair of L'Acoustic 108Ps or Fulcrum Acoustics FA28ACs- over any keyboard.

 

[tnelson]

This Casio-Yamaha stage piano/controller thread interests me because, as a humble weekend warrior type jazz piano player, I still don't fully understand how piano guys decide on a keyboard for gigs these days. I'm another who would prefer a real piano, but it's pretty rare to find small venues with pianos in good tune and shape. But why haul a heavy expensive stage piano instead of using an inexpensive light board with good action (e.g., Casio PX-160, 25 lb.) to play Pianoteq or similar software pianos that can be upgraded and adjusted to your ears? I know people worry about laptop failure, but the on-board sounds are there as back-up. I'm not trolling here: I really don't get it. I wish Casio and others would build robust minimal slabs as portable (stage) MIDI keyboards, like the Kawai VPC1, only portable. No speakers, sequencers, rhythm loops...just a great action with MIDI-out to run the wonderful physically modeled pianos available now. Piano players, wouldn't you rather have a robust keyboard with great action and just upgrade the piano software as it improves?

[ElmerJFudd]

That's the conundrum. We'd like an action that feels like a piano. I'm with Dave on that, much easier on my tendons - I never tire or require recovery on an acoustic action. But how do you get this into a lightweight controller? The best feeling action on a digital I've ever played is the Yamaha Avant Grand. But that action is enormous and heavy. This is an area Kawai has focused a lot on but light weight is elusive. And honestly, the tech is there for a developer to put Ivory or Pianoteq into a keyboard - a laptop isn't necessary at all. Casio is doing really well at the moment because they've found a niche in lightweight through plastic construction. The alternative is the CP4 or the very expensive Nord Piano 3 - 40.3 lbs, aluminum construction, but only 1gb of piano sample RAM, 40-60 note polyphony, and a Fatar TP-40 wood action at $3k. But it's a unique instrument and if you get a chance to play it and it speaks to you, maybe it's worth it. But at 40lbs you may as well also check out an MP7 and ES8 and see what's what with them.

[Hoochie]

I looked at the L' Acousics once after doing a gig at the NASCAR track in Vegas?

Long time ago. Anyway I was just amazed at what was coming out of this

tiny little speaker. Self powered. Just so small I could fit two in less space than

a mackie SRM 450.

These little guys were everywhere that night. Lip fills, side fills, effects.

It was like Disneyland. Surround Sound everywhere.

 

I wanted 2 so bad after that night.

Then I got a price from the only west coast distributor at that time.

Fugetaboudit.

One cost more than my whole rig.

2? Uh. Well. (If I had the money) Ya. Why not. I would do it.

Gigs woudn't pay for them but I don't care. I want the best.

And these are.

 

Then we all got iem's ( not cheap either buy the way) and never looked back.

 

John

[DulceLabs.com]

^^^

true true. that's another layer Casio has upped their game with. The interface is pretty darn easy to use (and see in a dark room). It's not gorilla glass or iPad like to touch, but it works well. I wonder how it holds up over time?

My understanding is that Casio has been making these displays for a while for other products so they are quite reliable.

 

This is true.

 

[DulceLabs.com]

This Casio-Yamaha stage piano/controller thread interests me because, as a humble weekend warrior type jazz piano player, I still don't fully understand how piano guys decide on a keyboard for gigs these days. I'm another who would prefer a real piano, but it's pretty rare to find small venues with pianos in good tune and shape. But why haul a heavy expensive stage piano instead of using an inexpensive light board with good action (e.g., Casio PX-160, 25 lb.) to play Pianoteq or similar software pianos that can be upgraded and adjusted to your ears? I know people worry about laptop failure, but the on-board sounds are there as back-up. I'm not trolling here: I really don't get it. I wish Casio and others would build robust minimal slabs as portable (stage) MIDI keyboards, like the Kawai VPC1, only portable. No speakers, sequencers, rhythm loops...just a great action with MIDI-out to run the wonderful physically modeled pianos available now. Piano players, wouldn't you rather have a robust keyboard with great action and just upgrade the piano software as it improves?

 

Hi Nelson. You pose some good questions. I think a lot of choosing what digital piano/controller and whether or not to use a laptop comes down to personal preference. I don't think there's a right or wrong method - there's just what works best for you and what you are comfortable with. Speaking for myself, I work on a computer all day so the last thing I want to deal with when I'm unwinding with my music is a computer. For some, it's an added component to schlep and set-up.

 

I do have a prediction though: Someday you'll be able to play directly from the cloud, no computer needed with millions of sounds at your fingertips.

[cphollis]

OK,long time Nord Piano 2 player here. I had a CP5 back in the day, but it was too heavy for my gigging situation.

 

I do love the NP2 I play, but I always feel a bit cheated on the action. Amazing sounds. No complanits.

 

I have two Yamaha pianos elsewhere in my life,if I could bring that same action to the stage, I think I'd be a happier camper.

 

So, bottom line, I'm seriously considering the CP4 for my next gigging board. Light enough to gig with, and I do like the way Yamaha does their keyboard actions. Mot worried about the sound, as I have killer amplification at my disposal.

 

I've' played all the Casios. With all due respect, they win the bang-for-buck debate. That being said, if you can afford better, there is better out there.

 

-- Chuck

[AnotherScott]

why haul a heavy expensive stage piano instead of using an inexpensive light board with good action (e.g., Casio PX-160, 25 lb.) to play Pianoteq or similar software pianos that can be upgraded and adjusted to your ears? I know people worry about laptop failure, but the on-board sounds are there as back-up. I'm not trolling here: I really don't get it. I wish Casio and others would build robust minimal slabs as portable (stage) MIDI keyboards

So, what's wrong with the Casio PX-160? It sounds like exactly what you wish they would make, right dow to the on-board sounds for backup.

[tnelson]

The Casio PX-160 is close; in fact, I've been using a PX-150 to control Pianoteq for quite a while in just this way. The keyboard action feels good, especially when calibrated with the velocity mapping in Pianoteq. However, I wouldn't call it robust...It is getting mechanically noisy and loose over time. Planned obsolescence. It's an entry level digital piano probably designed to be a minimal family investment for kids learning piano at home. Also, I have no need for the internal speakers and other digital bells and whistles. Just the MIDI out. I've never needed the internal sounds as back-up, either, knock on wood. I'd like a road-worthy minimal version that's built for serious use.

[MoodyBluesKeys]

But why haul a heavy expensive stage piano instead of using an inexpensive light board with good action (e.g., Casio PX-160, 25 lb.) to play Pianoteq or similar software pianos that can be upgraded and adjusted to your ears? I know people worry about laptop failure, but the on-board sounds are there as back-up.

I've tried both methods, and both work. Much depends on how often and where one is playing. If one is doing several gigs a week at different locations, with load in and out for each, in the long run, the heavy duty pro level stage piano/workstation will usually have higher reliability, and far less "moving parts" for something to be forgotten and cause a problem.

Also depends greatly on the actual scenario - a keyboard soloist or 2 or 3 piece jazz group heavily focused on keys needs a higher quality of sound than being part of a rock group with a couple of guitarists.

 

I don't have either of the boards mentioned by the OP.

 

I don't gig heavily, but it is under different circumstances. The regular church gig - I have two older Kurzweil keyboards (PC2 and PC3) that stay at the church along with an older monitor amp.

Any fairly lengthy and maybe complex traveling gigs - two tier stand, one or more of PC3X, PC361, SK1-73.

Just need a quick setup for a few songs - nothing beats the 49 key MIDI controller connected to the iPad running mostly Korg Module (I have all of the add-on sounds including Ivory) feeding amplification as needed - in some cases, I can just plug into the venue's system.

 

Rule #1: Don't carry more than needed.

Rule #2: Carry as much as needed.

Somewhere between those two rules RULES.

 

[sunshadow]

i think the 560 would be good (on paper) for composing, it has 17 track midi and audio recorder, where you can record, and layer, and adjust quantization after the fact....you can layer up to 17 separate tracks.... no computer, nothing, i think that is powerful....i like the blue look, i like the fact that there are 3 completely freely assignable mod knobs.....they also look high quality, and you can assign anything to the mw or pw. you can also freely assign the synth parameters, like cutoff and release....as in my first post, you cant seem to assign the filter cutoff on the CP4 to any of the modulation sources pw or mw....so even though it is a stage piano, i would still hope to at least be able to have some routing flex for the synth parts on the CP4, but, it is a stage piano...and by the numbers, it is a far superior stage piano to the casio, in terms of its pure piano features, like the wooden keys.....the wooden keys are seriously a huge deal i think...they contribute to the action in way that plastic cannot

 

it comes down to understanding your needs and looking at what is being offered...but also understanding that you need to be strict with your perception, what i mean is

 

if you are buying a "stage piano", and you start looking at the 560 and saying, it has a more complex "arranger" function with the 17 track recorder and seqencer etc, but the CP4 doesnt, well...why are you comparing that, you aren't buying a work station!

 

so it just muddies that water when you start looking at these features....if you are looking to buy a "stage piano" you should compare on a very strict criteria....ie. key action is the most important....then the sound, then the portability, etc....if you start looking at features on top of that, like does it have speakers, does it have XLR outputs, does it have enough mod routing options...then you are immediatly muddying the water for your decision criteria.....if how ever you are buying a synth, or a workstation, then those same key aspects would be reversed.....first you would look at sequencing, then key action etc...

 

so the hardest part i think is just figuring out exactly what the tool is that you really need......because even if you buy a good tool, it might not be quite exactly what you wanted, but you still keep using it, and ultimately it will lead you down a totally different path than the one that a slightly different tool would.....

 

obviously, this is not a problem if you just buy both, but even then, you only have so much time in the day

 

i think it would be probably good to have a px5s, used , you can get them cheap and they ahve good rating, and that would be your "throwaway" board, ie, the one that you take to gigs, the one that you dont care if someone steals...

 

and then you have your good board, the one with the high quality action like kawai or yamaha etc, mayeb nord, that you use for studio work, and also for very serious events, like concerts and important performances

 

because it gets to a point where its like...ok yea youre on stage, yea youa re playing your privia, youre having fun, but that action is just not truly going to give you that same inner passion and outer expressiveness that your CP4 will.....and if you arent fully expressing yourself and feeling that passion...then why are you even up there.....this is just from my perspective as someone who is expecting the best for myself as a professional musician

 

conversely though, it also starts to get to be too much i think, when you start looking at PHYSIS digitals....they seem to be so packed with features and are very pricey.....that it becomes a liability lol....i mean if you are playing live in front of a lot of people, or a few, you want maximum expression, but you dont need a 10 000 $ one, with 8 foot inputs....

[MassiveSkills]

Hehe, you got me there:)! I sold the CP4 because (and I\ll try not to sound snobbish here):

I have a beautiful Yamaha C6 in my office (always miced and ready to record), access to a huge Steinway concert grand located in a concert hall, access to a brand new Yamaha C7 located in a pro studio (I work as a assistant professor at a university in Norway).

And I almost always get to play acoustic grands/piano when gigging.

 

Hehe, that came off very snobbish indeed:)

 

So the CP4 became a "home" piano and I really wanted something that I could just turn on and play, something with speakers and a sequencer for ideas and so on.

Plus, its fun to play and sounds great! I wouldnt hesitate to bring it to a gig. But I have to say that I think the CP sounds a bit better and has a better keybed!

 

Its all down to needs:)

 

Its some time since I\ve heard from Kirk. We had a tour lined up in Norway a couple of months ago, but he had to cancel, which sucked.

[ElmerJFudd]

Of course, CP4 is a stage piano. I'd strike it off my list if I wasn't attracted to it's light weight/portability with a pretty good action and core piano sample set. What you're describing is a console, and - depending on your budget - you'd look at a CLP, CVP, or an Avant Grand - I'd take the N3 out of the lot.

[AnotherScott]

The Casio PX-160 is close...However, I wouldn't call it robust...It is getting mechanically noisy and loose over time. Planned obsolescence.

Or maybe not planned obsolescence, but a trade-off of making something lightweight and inexpensive? Though I do have a beef about how boards can get mechanically noisy, as it is often a matter of the felt getting compressed over time, which is understandable... the beef is, if this is a piece you're likely going to want to replace at some point, why not make the replacement of the felt easy to do? But then again, we live in an era of Macbooks and i-devices that don't let you easily replace the batteries, either.

 

Also, I have no need for the internal speakers and other digital bells and whistles. Just the MIDI out. I've never needed the internal sounds as back-up, either, knock on wood. I'd like a road-worthy minimal version that's built for serious use.

My guess is that a PX160 without the extras wouldn't sell nearly as well, and wouldn't be wildly cheaper, and wouldn't be any more robust than your PX-160. So I don't think it really would address your issues.

 

The thing is, we rarely get exactly what we want, our boards are not custom made, we're always looking for something that has what we want and I think need to accept that it will almost certainly also have some things we don't want, because someone else wants those things, and as a rule, the manufacturers want to make a handful of models each of which have wide appeal, rather than making a whole bunch of models each of which have narrow appeal. So we almost always get some things we don't need. Some companies do occasionally come out with niche products, but most stuff (at least from the big brands) is designed for wider appeal. I don't think Yamaha is interested in lower volume niche products.

 

But it's an interesting question, from a marketing perspective... what would you pay for, say, a Yamaha CP4 with no sounds? And do you think Yamaha would sell lots of them, and would they sell enough to offset some cannibalization of CP4 sales as well?

[Dave Ferris]

I used the CP4 in mono last night. Ran it into my APB DynaSonics ProSpec 2U6M2S mixer and only one RCF TT22A , as space was very limited.

 

I had two singers and the piano going through it on a speaker pole. There was also an acoustic bass , who used his own small amp. No drums.

 

CP4 sounded excellent, even in mono. The place had pretty good acoustics so that helped immensely with the mono thing. Had the CP4's EQ totally flat. No clangy quality whatsoever. Real smooth on the top end and very detailed (although not as much as my JMK Audio JM-110) with the TT22A.

 

I used the 22A over the TT08A because the dispersion is better. Easier to hear the vocals and overall just better coverage and a fatter sound.

 

When the acoustical stars align and with a great speaker like the RCF TT22A, it's hard to imagine any electronic keyboard doing a better job, sonically, of imitating an acoustic.

[tnelson]

But it's an interesting question, from a marketing perspective... what would you pay for, say, a Yamaha CP4 with no sounds? And do you think Yamaha would sell lots of them, and would they sell enough to offset some cannibalization of CP4 sales as well?

 

I wasn't thinking of a stripped down and cheaper PX-160, but rather a durable keyboard action only, essentially a portable Kawai VPC1. Thinking of the keyboard as a peripheral to the laptop or whatever device runs the piano software, instead of as a complete instrument with on-board sounds and speakers. If the action was good, easily portable, and serviceable instead of disposable, I'd happily "invest" similar to the price of a VPC1. A CP4 without internal sounds would still be a heavy board...Maybe it's just not possible (yet?) to fabricate a lightweight keyboard action that feels right and is built to last.

[sunshadow]

i think as of today, its all about tradeoffs, no dp out there is perfect for you, but some are better suited for your needs than others. personally , would feel a little bit off, using a laptop as my sound engine. for synthesizers, and sequencing i use a laptop, and i actually look at my laptop as the synth engine...when i literally look at it, i see all the soft synths inside it and i see it as a engine, not a laptop.....for something as expressive as a stagepiano, i wouldnt feel good, with that setup...i wouldn't feel like i was playing a piano....i would feel like i was playing a simulation, and there would be other issues like latency etc....

 

but at the end of the day, its a piano....it's just a piano...it's not a magic box that can perform time travel or something that amazing. as a multi instrumentalist, i dont view the piano as the be all and end all, it's just one form of expression, one aspect, but i view it as a discrete thing, its a piano...it's not a controller attached to a piano engine.....imo. if i start moving towards the laptop, i feel detached.....i guess thats how i put it. the detachment is nice for a seqencing, EDM style with using it as a synth engine...that is romantic to me.....even that, most synth purists would scoff at anyway. lol.

 

same thing with an actual synth, like if i was playing as a part in band, i wouldnt feel right using laptop....and i think there is just too much dissociation from a mental and also physical standpoint. weakness in the chain literally, and disjointed mentally

 

i heard someone mention they saw herb H playing a rodes simulation with a controller in one show

[MuzikTeechur]

I have owned several Yamahas (but not the CP4). Currently gigging with the PX-5s, and it's a wonderful instrument. You don't even have to say "... for a Casio." It's a great instrument, and I haven't found the action plastic-y or wanting. Is it different from my Chickering Grand? Absolutely. Worse? Better? Not necessarily.

Plus, with the Casio, I'm not playing just pianos - EP, Clavs, brass, and everything else necessary to a Motown gig. However I do leave the organs to my Nord Electro.

 

If money is no object, go play both, and you'll probably end up with the Yamaha. If you want to save a buck, and go slightly lighter, go with the Casio. Not much of a comparison if you play both and weigh your needs and price.

[ElmerJFudd]

I think many on the forum play more than one instrument, sunshadow. And it IS a magical box - a very magical box indeed!

[sunshadow]

yea youre right