OT: Bush Bungles Bagdad

[Salyphus]

Published on Friday, December 12, 2003 by the Boston Globe US Evades Blame for Iraqi Deaths by Derrick Z. Jackson   WASHINGTON -- A SENIOR White House official was asked in a briefing this week if President Bush will ever directly address the Iraqi people about the deaths of Iraqi civilians in the US occupation. Instead of addressing Bush's responsibility, the official delivered a spiraling rendition of denial. "Let's remember who's killing Iraqi citizens," the official said. "It's not the coalition forces. Yes, there are occasional collateral damage deaths in all wars. But it wasn't coalition forces that blew up the UN headquarters. It wasn't coalition forces that tried to force out the Italians and the Japanese and the Koreans. "It wasn't coalition forces that blew up Iraqi police stations. These are Iraqis killing Iraqis, and they're the same Iraqis who have been killing Iraqis for 25 years under Saddam Hussein. . . . There will be some civilian deaths. It will be nothing like what Saddam Hussein did." That was all true. It also had nothing to do with the question. Let's remember something else. The Associated Press reported back in June that at least 3,240 Iraqi civilians were killed in the first month of the American invasion. The AP reported that the "great majority of civilian deaths appear to have been caused by US or British attacks." The AP said its tally was "fragmentary" with the real figure probably "significantly" higher. In October, the Project on Defense Alternatives estimated the number of civilian deaths during the invasion to range between 3,200 and 4,300. Last month, Medact, the British wing of the International Physicians for the Prevention of Nuclear War, which won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1985, published a report that estimated between 5,708 and 7,356 civilians died during the invasion and an additional 2,049 to 2,209 have died in the occupation. For all the administration makes about the terrible attacks by Iraqi guerrillas against the occupation, there have been many examples of completely uncalled for killings of civilians, both in Afghanistan and Iraq. Twice this month, six and nine children apiece were killed in bungled US raids in Afghanistan. In Iraq there have been constant instances of innocent people being shot dead by trigger-happy US soldiers, including the most recent incident in Samarra. The Pentagon bragged about killing 54 Iraqi guerrillas. But local hospital officials counted eight people killed and 54 wounded, mostly, if not all, civilians. We continue to make a great deal about the deaths of 3,000 innocents in this country on Sept. 11, 2001. But our avenging war on terrorism has now turned into a terrorist attack of its own, killing perhaps three times more innocent civilians. USA Today reported this week that cluster bombs dropped during the invasion killed untold numbers of Iraqi civilians. Unexploded cluster bombs are continuing to kill Iraqi civilians that stumble upon them, including children. On March 23, at the beginning of the war, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. General Richard Myers, responded to early reports that scores of civilians were killed by cluster bombs by saying: "The one thing you can be sure of from the Iraqi regime is that they're masters at lying and distorting the truth. . . . we only target militarily significant targets. In the first couple of days, we used essentially 100 percent precision-guided munitions." On April 25, Myers said the United States and Britain dropped 1,500 cluster bombs on Iraq during the invasion. "There's been only one recorded case of collateral damage from cluster munitions so far," Myers said. Of course there was only one recorded case -- the United States has never counted civilian deaths. Worse, USA Today found that the United States used 10,782 cluster weapons, not just 1,500. The attempts by the White House to deny the blood on its own hands continued this week with the announcement by the Iraqi Health Ministry that it will no longer count civilian casualties. The head of the ministry's statistics department, Dr. Nagham Moshen, told the Associated Press that the US-led Coalition Provisional Authority has pressured Health Minister Dr. Khodeir Abbas to stop. "We have stopped the collection of this information because our minister didn't agree with it. The CPA doesn't want this to be done," Moshen said. Abbas, through his secretary, denied the charge. But Abbas had previously said it would be "almost impossible" to do a serious study. Moshen said the ministry's director of planning, Dr. Nazar Shabandar, told her, "You should move far away from this subject." Moshen said that there are enough hospital reports available to produce a credible study. "I could do it if the CPA and our minister agree that I can," Moshen said. With a shutdown of Iraqi civilians counting Iraqi civilians, the denial would be complete. The senior White House official said, "Let's remember who's killing Iraqi citizens." The evidence is appallingly clear that the White House is really saying "Let's forget." © Copyright 2003 Globe Newspaper Company

[Johnny Bitch]

What up COMMIE? Let me guess,.............Bush lied. BLAH BLAH BLAH.

[Johnny Bitch]

1. Saddam was a terrorist. I posted alot of facts that supported this, he gave money to terrorist all over the world. I will post all of the links again if need be. 2. Johnny supported the "protest" before and after the war, these were proven to be Communist sponsored protest, SO is johnny a "sheep" or a communist? 3. Johnny has NEVER said anything bad about UBL,saddam, or arafat. WHY?

[offramp]

[quote]Originally posted by WOW: [b]You are like a lingering fart.[/b][/quote]Stinkin' up your blind faith cocktail party?

[Johnny Bitch]

A SENIOR White House official I love the propaganda, WHO in the WH Sal? I can post stuff from "nameless" people all day. NICE TRY. :wave:

[offramp]

[quote]Originally posted by WOW: [b]I can post stuff from "nameless" people all day. NICE TRY. :wave: [/b][/quote]You do.

[Salyphus]

Obviously WOW didn't even read the article and just looked for the first thing he could attack. Sorry, didn't work.

[Johnny Bitch]

You are a ROYAL pain in the ass, and I would not mind but I have NEVER EVER learned one thing from your pointless post. You want a pissin' contest, then fine, YOUR a bitch and a pretty dumb one at that. BRING IT ON!(GWB). :wave: WOW

[Saint Johnny B]

Wow, Bush and Cheney killing civilans and normal, sane, and citizens of America objecting to it does not mean they are part of ANY political party or movement, when are you going to get that thru your thick head. Bush and Cheney have been a compete diaster, incalculable costs in terms of lives, money, and any respect the US may have once enjoyed around the world. All lost to fraud and frittering away by Bush and Cheney's mismagement and corruption.

[offramp]

"Wow, Bush and Cheney killing civilans and normal, sane, and citizens of America objecting to it does not mean they are part of ANY political party or movement, when are you going to get that thru your thick head." When he learns the difference between "your" and "you're. :p

[Johnny Bitch]

JOHNNY WATERMELON 1. Saddam was a terrorist. I posted alot of facts that supported this, he gave money to terrorist all over the world. I will post all of the links again if need be. 2. Johnny supported the "protest" before and after the war, these were proven to be Communist sponsored protest, SO is johnny a "sheep" or a communist? 3. Johnny has NEVER said anything bad about UBL,saddam, or arafat. WHY? You gonna keep AVOIDING this johnny?

[Dan South]

[quote]Originally posted by Chuck Moore: [b]Do you honestly feel that the average Iraqi thinks we are worse than Sadamm?[/b][/quote]It has nothing to do with what I BELIEVE, Chuck. My believing something doesn't make it true. YOU believing something doesn't make it true. Let's cut the "do you honestly believe" crap, because it leads nowhere. Iraqis, the people who live there, have gone on record as saying that they were better off before American invaded their country. That's all that matters. Everything else is posturing.

[Dan South]

[quote]Originally posted by guitplayer: [b]You're looking through the "keyhole" that is itself selected through a bias of the news broadcasters, (with agendas ranging from political bias to "the only news is bad news" thing), then YOU apply your OWN filter to judge the veracity of the information. It's HUMAN NATURE to filter things based on how they match your viewpoint. You agree with things that agree... and disagree or disbelieve things that don't agree. So you and I could read the same article, look through the same "keyhole" at the same thing... an draw entirely different conclusions about it. Probably ones that most support our pre-existing conclusions. That's one of the funny things about all the news "links" we often see for either side... They are ususally sprinkled with facts, and FULL of biased conclusions. For EITHER side. It's virtually impossible to read a story about parents who ACTUALLY WENT TO IRAQ TO COMPLAIN ABOUT THE WAR... THEN RETURNED AND SAID "EVERYTHING IS BAD"... and view that as any sort of "unbiased" report. Just like you wouldn't listen to a Rumsfeld newsconference and assume you're getting an "unbiased" assessment of the situation. So to me, it makes sense to try to SEE the bias, compare and contrast messages from opposing sides... remember that the "bad news" is more likely to drive TV ratings, so it gets WAY more airplay, and try to judge what's happening from that. Let me give you a non-political example. The current FLU EPIDEMIC. This is the latest "media darling". BUT EVERY YEAR 30,000+ people die from the flu. EVERY YEAR. But THIS year, it became a "story"... so we're getting daily updates on how many kids have died, in what states, and so on. Are MOST kids going to die if they get the flu. NO. Are YOU likely to die if you get the FLU. NO. Not unless your immune system is suppressed and it turns into pneumonia. Is ANYONE you KNOW likely to die from this year's flu. NO. But if you watch the TV news, it sure seems like EVERYONE better be afraid of this horrible KILLER flu... doesn't it. Is the flu bad? Yes. Will some people die? Yes. Is it sad that some of these are kids? or old people? Yes. COULD you die if you get the flu? Yes. So there's a sad truth underlying the hype. In fact, more people are going to die because of this seasons flu BY FAR than US forces in Iraq. BY FAR!!! But that's also true of cancer from smoking, heart attacks, traffic accidents... heck even the annual US MURDER RATE is going to be higher than all the soldiers killed in Iraq in 2003. Perspective. The news doesn't have it. That's for sure. [/b][/quote]This is a brilliant post! We DO filter out what doesn't match our viewpoint. I see a great deal of this phenomenon in these testy political threads.

[Dan South]

[quote]Originally posted by Jotown: [b] The woman was from Iran. The Nobel prize has nothing to do with America or Bush. It is statements like this that make the bulk of your rhetoric so amusing.[/b][/quote]And she lives in Paris, because the Iranians kept throwing her in jail. So, again, what does this have to with Bush's pet war?

[michael saulnier]

[quote]Originally posted by salOchoy: [b]Published on Friday, December 12, 2003 by the Boston Globe US Evades Blame for Iraqi Deaths by Derrick Z. Jackson [/b][/quote]This article makes some good points. Its hard for this administration or any other in the world to admit that when they make the decision to go to full scale war, innocent civilians will suffer and many will die. In a time where it's all about "smart bombs" it's not easy to confess to mistakes or even intended attacks where civilians could be harmed. "Casualties of War"... and its aftermath... the "occupation"... is a reality in all modern war... Too bad we couldn't go back to the "good old days" where great armies would meet on the "field of battle" in great masses. In those battles, civilians were far away and rarely harmed, (although if your "town" was not the "victor" you might get "sacked")...it was easy to tell friend from foe, and although there were often horrific numbers of killed and wounded on both sides... the carnage was mostly contained to the combatants. Even the "first" Gulf War was relatively free of major "non-combatant" deaths. With the exception of mis-guided bombs during the air campaign, the "desert" part of the battles had few civilians present... so relatively few deaths. Unlike the world wide havoc we call WWII, where civilian areas were INTENTIONALLY targeted by all sides, and MILLIONS of civilian deaths resulted... BOTH the gulf wars were remarkable in that with the advent of "smart bombs", and specific targeting, the number of civilian deaths were far lower than virtually any similar conflict. In fact it may be the first time in history where overwhelming military force was available to wipe out civilian areas, but efforts were made to "limit" those casualties. I applaud the effort of the men and women of the US armed forces who did what they could to both achive the objectives AND limit civilian casualties. But certainly civilian casualties DID occur. Some may argue that ANY use of cluster bombs infers a threat to civilians... and it's true that these are nasty weapons that present an ongoing danger to civilans well after the fighting is over... but the US military has viewed cluster-type munitions an important capablity in battle situations. And they've never agreed NOT to use them. Saddam KNEW this when he decided upon war rather than give in to the demands of the US and UN... but he didn't seem to care much about how the war might effect his armies or civilians. Personally I think using cluster bombs, then not "cleaning" them up effectively later is a huge mistake... And I honestly don't know what efforts or resources the US military provides for this purpose... hopefully they have a program that is designed to do this over time. But the fact is that modern war almost always kills civilians. Especially when the "military forces" blend into the civilian population or use the civilians as some sort of shield. Keep in mind that Saddam's military tactics in the "second" gulf war was to keep his forces dispersed within civilian populations, PRECISELY because he knew that the US CARED about limiting civilian deaths. HE apparently did not, or he would have moved his forces AWAY from civilian centers... wouldn't he. Of course when he did that, we would have obliterated them... so that's a dis-incentive to be sure. It's sad that so many civilians have died in the war and its aftermath. Hopefully our forces are learning and developing tactics to limit these deaths. If the troops are a bit "trigger-happy" as the author put it... I can understand. In a suicide-bomber type environment, there's a strict set of rules of engagement that tell you when you can and should fire. Assuming our troops follow those rules, and innocent people appear to be a threat... even if it turns out later they aren't... they're going to get attacked. Should we reach a point where the suicide attacks stop, you would expect the rules of engagement would evolve to de-escalate the chance of civilian deaths. If I had a son or daughter in Iraq. I would want them to protect themselves right up to the full extent of their orders. If that meant firing on a vehicle that doesn't obey an order to stop... I'd rather they do it than be the victim of a suicide bomber. Even if it turns out that it wasn't a suicide attack. War is ugly, horrible, and deadly. But our troops HAVE to be able to defend themselves... don't they? guitplayer

[Dan South]

SINCE PRESIDENT BUSH DECLARED AN END TO MAJOR COMBAT ON MAY 1, 2003: 1. The first battalion of the new Iraqi Army had graduated and is on active duty. --> And half of them promptly resigned. 2. Over 60,000 Iraqi's now provide security to their countrymen. --> It used to be 2,000,000. 3. Nearly all of Iraq's 400 courts are now functioning. --> Good. They can sue Bush and Cheney. 4. The Iraqi judiciary is fully independent. --> What a f--king JOKE! The Iraqi government is the puppet of an occupying foreign power. How does that translate into independence? 5. On Monday, October 6, 2003, power generation hit 4,518 megawatts...exceeding the pre war average power generation. --> Unfortunately, there are no wires left to carry the power to the customers. 6. All 22 universities and 43 technical institutions and colleges are open, as are nearly all primary and secondary schools. --> If you can get your school bus past the checkpoint. And make sure that little Ali doesn't leave the house without his sniper proof vest. 7. Over 1,500 schools have be rehabilitated..500 more than planned. --> More propaganda. There was an article on this a couple of weeks ago. An American company (Bechtel) won - yeah, right! - the contract to refurbish the schools. The work was so shoddy that the Iraqis feel that they could have done a better job if left to their own devices. [url=http://www.corpwatch.org/issues/PID.jsp?articleid=9248]Here is a link.[/url] 8. Teachers are now paid 12 to 25 times their pre war salaries. --> I have found links to verify this, but I find it incredulous given the economic state of the country. Is this part of the American propaganda package? Increase teacher salaries and then brag about it? How could such an increase be expected to last? Of course, given that the NEW salaries average out to $333.33 a month - oh, that THERE'S a real random number! - the teachers won't be driving BMW's in the near future. 9. All 240 hospitals and more than 1,200 clinics are now open. --> Except for the wards destroyed by American bombs. 10. Doctors salaries are not at least 8 times what they were pre war. --> That's good, but again, where is this money coming from, Blue Cross? Imagine going to your doctor and saying, "Hey, you know that $15 copayment? Well, I feel like giving you $120 instead." Something's fishy. SOMEONE is bankrolling this salary shift, and it's NOT going to last. 11. Pharmaceutical distribution has gone from nothing to 700 tons in May to a current level of 12,000 tons. --> Two explanations. First, anything distributed in May was carried by military convoy. If you want a real comparison, compare NOW to this time LAST year. Second, the surge is due to free pharmaceuticals donated by companies in Bulgaria, India, and other places in the region (not the USA). 12. The Coalition has helped administer over 22 million vaccination doses to Iraqi children. --> And why didn't they get these vaccinations earlier? Oh, yeah, Iraq has been under an embargo for the last twelve years. 13. The Coalition has cleared over 14,000 kilometers of Iraq's 27,000 kilometers of weed choked canals. This project has created jobs for more than 100,000 Iraqi's. --> Ooh! Canals! Groovy! Canals are SO useful in a country that's made of SAND! Whose brilliant idea was THIS? Perhaps our "weed choked" President? 14. Telephone service is over two thirds restored and potable water production is over two thirds of pre war production. --> So they're either all rather thirsty or a third of them aren't getting ANY water. 15. 95% of all pre war bank customers have service. --> But forty percent of THOSE are DEAD or have LEFT THE COUNTRY. 16. Iraqi banks are making loans to finance business. --> Banks making loans to finance BUSINESS. Wow! What a novel concept! I'll bet that the Iraqi banking system never thought of THAT one before! 17. Iraq has a single unified currency for the first time in 15 years. --> And like the currency of the Continental Congress, it's not worth the paper that it's written on. 18. Satellite dishes are now legal. --> And I'm sure that every one of those $333.33/month teachers rushed out and bought one! 19. Foreign journalists no longer are on 10 day high fee visas. --> In other words the Iraqis cannot profit from the media, even though the media can profit from Iraq. 20. There is no longer a ministry of information. --> No, because the Americans have taken over the propaganda machine. 21. A nation that had not one single element of a representative government now has several of those elements. --> Everyone loves a puppet show! 22. There are 88 elected advisory councils in Baghdad alone. The first democratic transfer of power in 35 years happened when the city council elected it's new chairman. --> We promised democracy. We've delivered bureaucracy. 23. 25 ministers, selected by the city councils now run the day to day business of government. --> Do you expect us to believe that twenty-five people run the entire country? That shows how little power the Iraqis themselves have actually retained. 24. The democratic Iraqi government is now a part of over two dozen international meetings and groups, including the UN General Assembly, The Arab League, The World Bank, The IMF and the Islamic Conference Summit. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs announced it was reopening over 30 Iraqi embassies around the world. --> Everybody loves a puppet ROAD show. 25. For the first time in 25 years, Shiites were allowed to celebrate the pilgrimage of the 12th Imam. --> Hey, ONE good thing out of 25 isn't bad! 26. The coalition has completed over 13,000 reconstruction projects. --> See the Bechtel school deal, above. 27. A Muslim woman has been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for the first time in history. --> And a Muslim man is the richest man in India. What does that have to do with the price of tea in Baghdad? --- May I add a few bullet points to the list? 28. More American servicemen have been killed than in the first three years of the Vietnam War. 29. The Baghdad museum, one of the world's greatest treasure troves of antiquities, has been ransacked. It's contents will never be reassembled. 30. Over 10,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed by American forces compared to fewer than 3,000 civilians (not all Americans) that were killed in the 9/11 terror attacks. 31. America's currency value has dropped by a large margin. 32. The good will shown by other nations in the aftermath of 9/11 has been completely eroded.

[Saint Johnny B]

That's why most generals and those who have seen the carnage up close, usu go to great lengths to avoid conflict. Those that sit in their comfy little hovels, and watch too much TV or listen to too much "talk radio," and have never set foot on an active battlefield, are the ones doing the chest-beating yelling about the flag, and "support the troops," and "let's invade everbody," or "let's just drop a nuke on 'em," or "we know what's best for them," or "you're either with us or against us," but most of these idiots are cowards when push comes to shove. Then there are the "war-profiteers" who love nothing better than to keep the conflict going as long as possible. They too, rarely stand on the actual battlefied where lives on both sides are brualized and treated as if they were worth nothing. After all, they are making money and spending their holidays on some paradise island, drinking on the beach, and rationializing their behavior. Do I believe Sadam was some kind of hero? No way. Do I believe Bush and Cheney were justified to occupy Iraq. Nope. Do I believe that Bush and Cheney are handling domestic issues in America in a fair, non-fraudulent way? Nope. Would I sign a Recall Petition on Bush and Cheney? Yep, in a New York second. Would I vote to impeach Bush in Cheney? In a New York second. If I were an honest government prosecutor, would I bring criminal charges against Bush and Cheney? Yep, in a New York second. Would I expect a jury of average Americans to convict Bush and Cheney. Yep, I think they would come with a gulty verdict on Bush and Cheney in less than 2 hours. Are Bush and Cheney mismageing the occupation of Iraq? Can we say, "Fraud, corruption, mismanagement, waste, and abuse?" Bush and Cheney suck, they should be jailed.

[Chuck Moore]

Leave it to the Bush haters to find a grey cloud around every silver lining. There is not, apparently, a single positive developement you guys can't find fault with. It's a good thing there weren't people like Dan around to pick apart Midway, Wake island, North Africa, or Normandy. Well maybe there were, but noone then cared....................... hmmmmmmmmmm maybe it's not so different after all.

[offramp]

And leave it to the Bush lovers to line everything with silver...especially someone else's...and not be willing to step back and view their work from another perspective, to see the negatives of their approach. "13. The Coalition has cleared over 14,000 kilometers of Iraq's 27,000 kilometers of weed choked canals. This project has created jobs for more than 100,000 Iraqi's. --> Ooh! Canals! Groovy! Canals are SO useful in a country that's made of SAND! Whose brilliant idea was THIS? Perhaps our "weed choked" President?" Slow down there, Dan-O. BECAUSE it's made of sand, a canal is even MORE vital. What little water there is if it can't be delivered via infrastructure, then by canal. How else they gonna get it?

[Johnny Bitch]

[quote] Do I believe Sadam was some kind of hero? No way [/quote]All that typing and this is all johnny posted. OK, saddam was not a hero to you. GREAT, should he have stayed in power? James Brown has a song that fits johnny, its called : "Talkin' LOUD,but you ain't sayin' nothin'." What about UBL and arafag? TALK and try to post without EVERY conclusion coming back around to blaming GWB.

[Chuck Moore]

[quote] And leave it to the Bush lovers to line everything with silver...especially someone else's...and not be willing to step back and view their work from another perspective, to see the negatives of their approach. [/quote]I will freely admit that there are problems there, and much work still remains to be done. No clear headed person could think everything is rosy. But there is progress being made, and in some places REMARKABLE progress. It's the steadfast unwillingness to even acknowledge the smallest piece positive news, lest the President they hate should get some credit for it, that I find reprehensible.

[Dan South]

[quote]Originally posted by offramp: [b]And leave it to the Bush lovers to line everything with silver...especially someone else's...and not be willing to step back and view their work from another perspective, to see the negatives of their approach. "13. The Coalition has cleared over 14,000 kilometers of Iraq's 27,000 kilometers of weed choked canals. This project has created jobs for more than 100,000 Iraqi's. --> Ooh! Canals! Groovy! Canals are SO useful in a country that's made of SAND! Whose brilliant idea was THIS? Perhaps our "weed choked" President?" Slow down there, Dan-O. BECAUSE it's made of sand, a canal is even MORE vital. What little water there is if it can't be delivered via infrastructure, then by canal. How else they gonna get it?[/b][/quote]In that case, they would be aqueducts. Canals are used for shipping freight on barges. Somehow I can't imagine this type of shipping in a desert country, but I could be wrong and I will retract my assertion if someone can point me to a credible source on this canal story.

[Dan South]

[quote]Originally posted by Chuck Moore: [b]Leave it to the Bush haters to find a grey cloud around every silver lining. There is not, apparently, a single positive developement you guys can't find fault with. It's a good thing there weren't people like Dan around to pick apart Midway, Wake island, North Africa, or Normandy. Well maybe there were, but noone then cared....................... hmmmmmmmmmm maybe it's not so different after all.[/b][/quote]Oh, please! There is NO comparison between Iraq and WWII. The assertion is an insult to WWII vets. In WWII, the Allies fought against the world's only superpower. In Iraq, the "coalition" bombed an impoverished dust bowl.

[Chuck Moore]

And the reason it was an impoverished dustbowl was it's leader, the guy we got rid of. Soon it will be a prosperous dustbowl with freedom and democracy in spite of the naysayers here and the terrorists there.

[Dan South]

[quote]Originally posted by Chuck Moore: [b]And the reason it was an impoverished dustbowl was it's leader, the guy we got rid of. Soon it will be a prosperous dustbowl with freedom and democracy in spite of the naysayers here and the terrorists there.[/b][/quote]Eyes they have, but they see not.

[Chuck Moore]

[quote] Eyes they have, but they see not. [/quote]Hey!!, I think we're making progress. The first step is admitting you have a problem, so your now on your way to seeing. Congratulations and welcome aboard.

[Saint Johnny B]

C'mon Chuck, Don't you think Cheney and Bush blundered by even attacking Iraq in the first place. To try and shift the apparent blame of Ossama's boy's action onto Sadamm was pretty weak. It would have been so much cheaper and cleaner to go after the real perpetrator, but alas, getting Ossamma would not have yielded "no bid contracts" for Haliburton or the oil fields for Exxon and BP. And don't you think it's a little presumptious of Bush and Cheney to try a ram their chosen form of government down the throat of a culture that has been around for 1000's of years. What gives Bush and Cheney the right to order these people around like this. More, importantly, why do they want to do it? If Bush and Cheney were such humanitarians, and benefactors, there's plenty of places for them to focus on, like right in the good old USA where people are homeless and jobless, and are having difficulty making ends meet. But the reason they are focused on forcing a form of governement onto a foreign culture is rather simple, they want to insure that their friends in the oil industry have a legal claim to the oil, one recognized by their puppet government. But guess what? Now that much of the counrty has been destroyed by Bush and Cheney, they expect the locals to welcome them with open arms and bend over for them??? Not likely. And then, Bush and Cheney want the American Taxpayer to foot the bill for their blunders and feel good about it. Not when they wake up. So this is why we need a new, non-corrupt administration. Bush and Cheney must go. --------------- Save the World Save America Jail Bush Now! You'll be glad you did

[GZsound]

Speaking of killing folks.. Johnny, check into the reasons we are out of flu vaccine. Check out the numbers of children and elderly that have died because of a lack of vaccine. Then check Hillary Clinton's involvement in the huge reduction in vaccine doses. Get on your high horse against the American Trial Lawyers who have stopped tort reform and thus caused vaccine manufacturers to stop making vaccine. I realize it is impossible for you to be fair, impartial or in any way reasonable because of your blind hatred of this administration, but you really should open your eyes and your brain. By the way, I have noticed you have stopped ranting about Bush killing the economy. Maybe you actually do recognize when you are making groundless, pointless and simply wrong accusations. This gives me hope for you.

[Chuck Moore]

No, I don't think it was a blunder to liberate Iraq. Were I president, I would have done much the same thing. Actually, I probably wouldn't have wasted time waltzing around with the worthless UN while Sadamm was busy preparing for the war. This was the most announced war in history, and we gave him much too much time to hide/sell/move the WMDs, which will eventually be found btw, and too much time to stash away weapons and cash for the insurgency to use after the inevitable defeat of his military. And yes, I do believe that a majority of Iraqis are glad we're there. Not all I'm sure. It's a big country and likely has people of vastly varying opinions on the subject, just like this forum. So did Bush do it for financial gain, for political calculation, or because he believed it to be the right thing to do? I have no idea, and neither do any of you. I've never met him, so it's impossible for me to know what is in his heart. But I largely agree with the policy thusfar, and weather you like how we got there or not, at this point we have no choice but to make it work. Failure is not an option in Iraq. Victory IS the exit strategy.

[Salyphus]

[url=http://www.whale.to/vaccine/flu2.html]Not everyone agrees that flu vaccines are safe.[/url] Don't believe the hype, it's a sequel.