OT: Any Middle East Experts Here?

[Salyphus]

God, I hate posting off-topic in this thread. But since I was attacked behind my back I at least wanted to set the record straight. GP, I stand by what I posted. If you can't see the HUGE difference between what I said and what you claimed I said (now deleted in apparent shame and willful obfuscation) then that backs up my assertion about your lack of reading comprehension skills. Or perhaps you misrepresent me WILLINGLY. Either way, NOT COOL. If you want to debate with me, do it in the proper context, if you can hack it. Otherwise, SPEAK FOR YOURSELF. Sorry folks, please carry on with your conversation.

[michael saulnier]

Does that mean "apology accepted"... Apparently you can never be too sure these days! :rolleyes: guitplayer

[michael saulnier]

[quote]Originally posted by Dan South: [b] [quote]Originally posted by guitplayer: [b] Not all of OBL's supporters are Arab, but many are. Certainly not all Arabs are OBL supporters. Of course. Most, but probably not all OBL's supporters are muslims, but many are. Certainly not all Muslims are OBL supporters. Of course. [/b][/quote]You forgot one very important point. Most Muslims are NOT Arabs. Yet, here in America, the two are thought of as synonymous.[/b][/quote]Yes, of course this is true... Isn't the largest national muslim population in Indonesia? I, for one, don't equate Islam with OBL. Even though he uses it to justify his murder... But there probably aren't many religions that can say they have had no members who didn't exploit the religion for horrible purposes. Certainly all the Christian factions don't have to think hard to find examples. guitplayer

[Saint Johnny B]

All I know about OBL is what I read and a few edited snippets on TV with someone "interpreting" for the viewers. I've never seen or heard of any real proof linking him to 9/11, never seen a canceled check or anything like that. Just what I've been told by talking heads. I believe he might be guilty based on heresay, but that should be for a court and jury to decide. I believe there is enough to at least charge him with a crime. Nevertheless, I've tried to put myself in his shoes, how would I feel if someone came to my country and set up shop and occupied it with a military force. I don't think I would have been too happy if the Nazi's, Russians, or Chinese had done this with a military force here in the USA. As to OBL and AQ, I guess what I'm looking for is motive. And it comes back to "why?" Why do they act as they do? What really motivates them? I think OBL must be smart enough to distinguish the difference between the American people and the Bush Administration. That's why I have difficulty with the assertion that OBL wants to kill "all 300 million Americans." Something that would be pretty hard to do given all the weapons floating around in America. But if he was a mastermind or accomplice to the crime of 9/11, he should be jailed if found guilty. But it seems he wanted worldwide press and to make a big anti-US government statement of some kind and that the innocents who died, including one of family, were only collaterial damage to him. But to be perfectly honest, I have not the slightest notion what is going on in this guy's head. Perhaps, someone who is less ignorant than I can shed some light on this for me. And for those who were kind enough to share an enitrely different view of Muslims and the wonderful people to be found thoughout the Middle East and Asia, my thanks.

[Alndln]

[quote]Originally posted by fantasticsound: [b] I haven't been to Saudi, but I understand it's, by far, the strictest. [/b][/quote]To any Muslin who's not of Saudi blood,not so much religous adherence,but laws by Saudi's themselves.Anyone not of Saudi blood lives by a different set of laws and privelages(if any).Things like the daily public be-heading in public squares don't usually feature Saudi's because the Saud cannot be wrong v/s muslim commoners.The Saudi repression reaches far beyond it's borders and has been at the crux of resentment for ages.Yes,Islamic law states that the privelaged must provide for the less privelaged and the Saudi's have been doing that to a certain extent but by no means at any serious toll of their of their own birth rite of wealth,nor will Saudi's relinquish their god(Allah)given privelages and laws v/s Muslim commoners.Saudi's and Muslims alike aknowledge Oil as a gift from Allah,but the Saudi's consider it a gift to them exclusivley.The United States(in particular)and the rest of the world support and adhere to the Saudi's point of view.To say that's where the complications set in is an understatement.

[strat0124]

Certainly not an expert but I've traveled for over twenty years throughout Morroco, Tunesia, Egypt, Saudi, Jordan, Israel, Qatar, Bahrain, Kuwait, ect. Can't think of them all. I echo Ken's sentiments. The people are incredibly hospitable, and open. Inquisitive as well, and will engage in any conversation you lead them in. And most speak several languages, its amazing. The thing I see over and over is the misconception that they are all arabs, of course they aren't. Most think they are camel riding sultans, who hate everything Western. That simply isn't true. During the periods I've spent over there, I've seen more reverance for things sacred than I've ever seen in the U.S. I'm sure bad people exist everywhere, but when is the last time you saw 500 people in townsquare every single evening on their knees praying together? Its not too much of a stretch to gather that our fossil fuel exploits in any region in the world is what makes people resent us. We come in take the natural resources and the people in general don't see any of the spoils. Jesus himself railed on the concentration and hording of great wealth, yet we ignore those teachings and point to some obscure text, taken out of context, to divide, demonize, and marginalize certain people around the world and at home. Its enough to make me rethink my Christianity. We already know the answer for peace in the middle east, but we will never do it, not in this lifetime.

[Botch.]

This article had some interesting history: http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/1205SaudiExtremism05-ON.html

[Alon]

Ok, johhnyb is not looking for any real answers. He's looking for the answers that his twisted mind wants to hear. OBL not a bad guy ? misunderstood ? Don't worry johnnyb, he wants you dead too. :D alon

[michael saulnier]

Does PEACE = JUSTICE? It's possible for there to be peace by force... History tells us that many conquerers were able to instill a peaceful situation in their counquered realms... at least for a time. PEACE can be objectively measured. It's the absence or at least reduction of VIOLENCE and CONFLICT. The problem in the mid-east, is that JUSTICE cannot be objectively measured or dispensed. What is JUSTICE to one party is often UNFAIRNESS to another. Look at the Palestinian / Israeli situation. If you "give back" the land that they claim Israel "stole" from them... in the pursuit of "justice"... the Israeli's will call that "un-just". If you allow the Israeli's to maintain their present status, the Palestinians will call that "un-just". Both are "justified" in their opinions, because "JUSTICE" is not objective. It is entirely subjective. There are NO easy answers. As far as what the US can or should do in the mid-east. Or even what we are "justified" in doing... Again, its completely subjective. If we had not attacked Iraq, left Saddam in power, would the Iraqi people be "better off" than today? Will the typical little kids in Iraq be better or worse off in 10 years from now? If we never protected Saudi Arabia by moving our forces to oppose Saddam's invasion of Kuwait, and potential of attacking Saudi Arabia... Would 9/11 have happened? Would Kuwait still be controlled by Saddam? Would Saudi Arabia be controlled by Saddam? Would WE in the US be "better off"? Subjective. Not objective. No easy answers. EASY to complain... Hard to decide what's the "just" thing to do. guitplayer

[michael saulnier]

[quote]Originally posted by Johnny B: [b]All I know about OBL is what I read and a few edited snippets on TV with someone "interpreting" for the viewers. I've never seen or heard of any real proof linking him to 9/11, never seen a canceled check or anything like that. Just what I've been told by talking heads. I believe he might be guilty based on heresay, but that should be for a court and jury to decide. I believe there is enough to at least charge him with a crime. [/b][/quote]Johnny, perhaps you missed the taped broadcast OBL released where he takes "credit" for 9/11. I know you would say, well I don't speak his language, so perhaps someone "misinterpreted" his comments... but of course, if that was the case, we would see "alternative" explanations for his statements. We didn't. He TOOK CREDIT for planning 9/11 and talked about his "JOY" about the events... There isn't much more proof needed, imho. [quote][b] Nevertheless, I've tried to put myself in his shoes, how would I feel if someone came to my country and set up shop and occupied it with a military force. I don't think I would have been too happy if the Nazi's, Russians, or Chinese had done this with a military force here in the USA. [/b][/quote]Perhaps we ALL would be seeking vengence against a foreign "occupation" as you describe it... but you're misrepresenting what happened. -The Saudi Governent INVITED us to send our troops in. - Our Forces DID NOT OVERTHROW, THREATEN, CONTROL, CHANGE, OR OTHERWISE cause harm to the Saudi government. - Not only were we NOT an occupying force, we PROTECTED Saudi Arabia from the threat of attack and occupation by Saddam. - We also LIBERATED Kuwait... then allowed the former government BACK INTO POWER. NO OCCUPATION. - Our troops that remained in Saudi Arabia after the first Gulf War, were APPROVED to stay there by the Saudi Government. To compare our actions to a Nazi, Soviet, Chinese or whatever INVASION of the US... is just WRONG. A better analogy could be the assistance the FRENCH gave us during the War of Independence. Our fledgling government ASKED for the French to send troops to help us defeat the British. They did. Those troops were NOT an occupation force. They were there to HELP US. We asked, they did. It was a GOOD thing. [quote][b] As to OBL and AQ, I guess what I'm looking for is motive. And it comes back to "why?" Why do they act as they do? What really motivates them?[/quote][/b] Did you even READ what I wrote before about the "reasons"? They have constructed an ideology that views all western culture as evil... and they see the US as the leader of the western world. They don't want "co-existence"... They want it ALL GONE. They view this as a "holy mission", and therefore, NOT a negotiable issue. [quote][b] I think OBL must be smart enough to distinguish the difference between the American people and the Bush Administration. That's why I have difficulty with the assertion that OBL wants to kill "all 300 million Americans." Something that would be pretty hard to do given all the weapons floating around in America. But if he was a mastermind or accomplice to the crime of 9/11, he should be jailed if found guilty. But it seems he wanted worldwide press and to make a big anti-US government statement of some kind and that the innocents who died, including one of family, were only collaterial damage to him. But to be perfectly honest, I have not the slightest notion what is going on in this guy's head. Perhaps, someone who is less ignorant than I can shed some light on this for me. And for those who were kind enough to share an enitrely different view of Muslims and the wonderful people to be found thoughout the Middle East and Asia, my thanks.[/b][/quote]I know it's hard for you to comprehend the committment, hatred, and passion that OBL and his followers have for what they believe to be their "sacred mission". Perhaps you have never been "committed" to anything you believe in so strongly that it takes over all your thoughts and actions... Oh wait... there's the "Throw Bush in jail thing"... :rolleyes: I don't know whether you think GOD told you to do this... or whether you see this as a "holy mission"... But to paraphrase Alon... "Don't worry johnnyb, he wants to you dead too." True 'dat. You will probably think... "But he doesn't even know me... why would be wish me dead?" Oh, well. Good thing we have not elected YOU POTUS... guitplayer

[KenElevenShadows]

[quote]Originally posted by Dan South: [b]Good, God! This is like reading some kind of thread about black people by people who've only seen one at a distance. "Oh, yeah, I hear that they like ta chase after dem WHITE women!" :mad: Eye-popping fits of rage? Yeah, I know a lot of AMERICANS like that. I'd guess that I know about five-hundered Arabs, have eaten in many of their homes and stayed with them on occasion, have attended family weddings, birthday parties, and New Years Eve parties with them. I haven't seen ANY of the behavior that's been described here! I applaud quest for knowledge that this thread represents, but talking to people who've only been on military bases or in corporate compounds in Saudi Arabia isn't going to give you a cross section of Arab life. Go to a Lebanese or Middle Eastern restaurant sometime, preferably on "belly dancer night." Have a good time. Eat some good food and some great entertainment. Meet some nice people. That's the only way that you'll ever get to know Arabs or any ethnic group. You may find that we all have a lot in common.[/b][/quote]Gee, wasn't that the whole gist of my posts? Did I NOT say that 98% of the people I met in Morocco and elsewhere were some of the nicest, kindest people, people I'd love to have as next-door neighbors, family members, friends? Did I not say that I spent two months in Morocco (and many more months elsewhere), traveling and talking with people, and NOT on an army base? I really think this accusation is quite harsh, Dan, and rather uncharacteristic of you. It's almost like you didn't read any of my posts. Second of all, these are my observations after over two months of traveling in Morocco, almost weeks in Kashmir, and three extensive trips to India (which has one of the largest Muslim populations of any country) equaling over 7-8 months. Maybe I might actually know what I am talking about. These are OBSERVATIONS, and based on FACT. I am describing what I saw and experienced, and is therefore irrefutable. It happened. It's not stereotype; this is what I SAW. Not that I even need to back up these statements, but Dr. Rapheal Patai of "The Arab Mind", who lived in North Africa for eons and has done extensive studies among Arabic, Bedouin, and Berber people, has entire chapters on this very emotional behavior. Thirdly, although I would encourage anyone to go to a Lebanese restaurant or Middle Eastern restaurant on, as you say, "belly dancing night" and have a good time, I find this comical. First you blast me for my observations, saying that I am "stereotyping", but then you suggest going to a Middle Eastern restaurant in the United States on "belly dancing night" (as if that's even typical of a Lebanese restaurant or any other restaurant in the Middle East?), an incredibly stereotypical endeavour. And gee, what a surprise - you didn't see any fits of rage at a birthday party or wedding? My observations were on the streets of Morocco, where it was literally a daily occurrence. I am talking about vein-bulging, screaming-at-the-top-of-the-lungs, venom-spewing, crowd-gathering, potentially (and sometimes literally) violent behavior that I saw EVERY DAY. It's not a surprise that you are not going to see this at a party in the United States or during "belly dancing" night at a restaurant. I completely stand by my observations, and feel that I am all the richer for my experience. I have spent the sum total of probably almost a YEAR among Muslim people in THEIR country, in THEIR homes, in THEIR streets, with THEIR customs, on THEIR buses, have very good friends in Morocco, Kashmir, and India, and feel like I have an understanding of Muslim people and behavior that goes slightly beyond "belly dancing night" at Arabian Nights Restaurant or wherever you go for your "authentic" representation of Arabic culture. Thanks, dude, for giving me the benefit of the doubt. I really thought you were above that and have really admired your posts in the past, but this is incredibly insulting.

[KenElevenShadows]

[quote]Originally posted by Geenard: [b]Certainly not an expert but I've traveled for over twenty years throughout Morroco, Tunesia, Egypt, Saudi, Jordan, Israel, Qatar, Bahrain, Kuwait, ect. Can't think of them all. I echo Ken's sentiments. The people are incredibly hospitable, and open. Inquisitive as well, and will engage in any conversation you lead them in. And most speak several languages, its amazing. The thing I see over and over is the misconception that they are all arabs, of course they aren't. [/b][/quote]I could not agree more. Really well-mannered, and beyond helpful and kind and hospitable. Hospitality is a huge hallmark of Arabic culture. I mean, I'm talking about people who would walk 7 city blocks in the opposite direction to show you where something is despite our protestations, people who have great, articulate conversations showing a great deal of thought and insight, and people who I am very proud to have as a friend. As I mentioned in a previous post, 98% of the people that I met in Morocco are the very people that I would love to have as a next-door neighbor, friend, or family member. And that's a very high ratio... And yes, the ability for them to flit back and forth between languages is remarkable. "Schween" ("beautiful" in one of the Berber dialects)! BTW, my comments in previous posts extended to Muslim and Arabic people that I met, and I did try and make the distinction between the two, since someone who is Arabic is not necessarily Muslim, and someone who is Muslim is not necessarily Arabic. I also met numerous Berbers when I was in the Atlas Mountains and elsewhere in Morocco, and my observations of them would be slightly different, although still very positive. And I agree with your last sentence; there are many other ethnicities and cultures in North Africa and the Middle East besides Arabic. Lucky you for being able to travel so extensively in those regions!!! :thu:

[KenElevenShadows]

I should mention that I work in the same classroom with several Middle Eastern people here at work, and that they agree wholeheartedly with my observations and Dr. Raphael Patai's observations of Arabic emotional states, as mentioned in a previous paragraph. They said that what I observed was very consistent with what they observed when they were living in Iran and Lebanon.

[KenElevenShadows]

[quote]Originally posted by deanmass: [b]Ken, well said all around... In my DJ days, ANY ethnic wedding was a TON of fun. There was always great food, great partying, and the other thing was that they never got falling down drunk to go out and dance. And, the parties were inclusive, i.e. kids to Granny. I did a Persian wedding once where I was hired to play during the breaks the band took. When I was not doing the DJ thing, thew threw me a drum. It was incredible. All in all, I think in general, American's view the rest of the world as beneath us in some way. I don't mean to offend anyone by that, just my own personal observation. I also think many of us ( Americans) think that the way some of the conditions the people around the globe live under will never trickle to us, but, unfortunately, it is already trickling in.[/b][/quote]Thanks. I prefer to view cultures as being different, and not as being superior or inferior. Just different. I know that's not how others view it, and hence, my apprehension in even making observational posts about other cultures in this depth (relatively speaking, for a post...). I was invited to a Moroccan wedding and a Kashmiri wedding. I also got to jam with Moroccan musicians in the streets. Wow, what an experience!! Stayed with families, played music, hung out, went shopping for food, even going to get haircuts together, everything...what a rich and beautiful experience it was. Wonderful people, some of whom I am lucky enough to continue to stay in touch with!!!

[Dan South]

Gene, Thanks for the beautiful post! Ken, that you also, as always, for your detailed travelogue. The only thing that jumped out as strange was the comment about the tempers. First of all, it's outside of my experience, but that's not to suggest that it doesn't happen. Second, I think that, as I tried to state, Americans are more prone to not only lose their tempers but also to act out in violent ways than any other people that I've ever seen, so I'm not sure that the observation of a few testy Arabs amounts to much. Maybe they were just having a bad day. Re: belly dancing, first of all, it was a suggestion that might lead Johnny and others to see Arabs in a better, more festive light than the way that they're portrayed on TV. Second, I cited belly dancing because Americans have a skewed impression of belly dancing. We tend to equate it with strippers. Arabs don't. It's a very common and innocent activity to them. When a belly dancer dances in a restaurant or at a social fuction, the Arab ladies will get up and dance with her. That's not likely to happen in a strip club. This is a common misconception, like so many other misconceptions that cloud our impression of Arabs. So, by all means, go out and see some belly dancing. You (collectively) might learn something.

[Saint Johnny B]

Gitplayer, You fault me for trying to get into the mind of someone who reputably caused the murder of my cousin, and attempting to understand what motivates these actions. But from what I'm reading in these links it seems that Bush may have attacked the wrong country and attempted to solve the problem in entirely the wrong way. What does Islamic Law say should happen to one who murders or is a co-conspirator in this kind of crime? As to those who portay the majority of those belonging to the Islamic faith as normal, well-adjusted, and generous individuals, my thanks. Let us not have a few bad apples spoil the whole bunch. IMHO, just as OBL should face a trial, so should Bush for his crimes of greed. Criminals of whatever stripe should go to prison. Just my take, your mileage may vary.

[Saint Johnny B]

Bump. Because I'd like to hear more about people's knowledge and experiences of the Middle East.

[Wrave]

I have never been to the middle east but I have had experience with these folks here in the US. I played a club in Dearborn Heights MI for about three years. Much of the clientel was Arabic being from Iraq and Iran. These were young men mostly who had come there to study. Perhaps there were young women there in school but I never saw them. Dearborn is a large enclave of folks of this ethnicity. In the club, they were aggressive, angry, obnoxious, threatening and down right scary. But, they had money and the club owner valued that over the safety of his non-Arabic customers. Several times I saw non-Arab customers carried out after being gang mobbed by the "cousins" as they called themselves. More than once they knifed some guy just because he had brought his girlfriend in and one of the "cousins" had taken a liking to her and was harassing the couple. This isn't meant to dispute any statements above that describe these races as hospitable and giving. They may well behave that way in their home countrys where, as someone has already mentioned, the rule of law is Islam. Here in the US, where those restrictions were relaxed, they were frightening. I don't intend this as a blanket condemnation of the middle east races. Certainly there are some peace loving and very honorable men and women there but there is a streak of cruelty in some that is beyond belief. Just my observations...

[EXAGON]

The only thing i know about middle east culture: They don't allow you to go there without covering your face. But if they go here they don't change anything to respect the cristianism. Conclusion: They are convincted that they have the truth. We all are wrong and they have the truth. This is the main problem of their culture.

[ibescotty]

[quote]Originally posted by EXAGON: [b]The only thing i know about middle east culture: They don't allow you to go there without covering your face. But if they go here they don't change anything to respect the cristianism. Conclusion: They are convincted that they have the truth. We all are wrong and they have the truth. This is the main problem of their culture.[/b][/quote]Culture in general thinks that way doesn't it? How many times have I heard someone trying to save me from eternal damnation because I do not follow a Christian denomination? Their culture is set in it's ways and has been that way since antiquity. Our culture here in the US has only been around some 200 years. Their culture has been around for 2000 years. What they have is right for them and they ask that you respect that when you are in their country. You can not go into a 2000 year old culture and expect them to roll over for you. Certainly I don't agree with some of the things in their culture. It's not for me to judge though. Our society is built on allowing people the freedom of choice. Even if we try to impose our choices on other people the system overall protects us. I guess what I'm trying to say is that they are not judging us when they make us follow their customs in their home land.

[strat0124]

Another misconception about "arabic" people that Ken mentioned, is they are not all Muslim. In Bethlehem alone, the Palestinian population is largely Christian. Christian and Jewish enclaves exist all over. In fact, Turkey has had a very healthy relationship between the Jewish, Christian, and Muslim population. Maybe we should take some advice there.

[Saint Johnny B]

Green, That was my understanding of how Spain once was. 300 years of peace between Christians, Jews, and Islam, but then Isabel and Ferdy came along and upset things. Too bad too, I understand that art, culture, science, and music flourished in this golden age of 300 years of peace in Spain. So perhaps, there is/was a model that may be worth investigating.

[KenElevenShadows]

[quote]Originally posted by Wrave On: [b]I have never been to the middle east but I have had experience with these folks here in the US. I played a club in Dearborn Heights MI for about three years. Much of the clientel was Arabic being from Iraq and Iran. These were young men mostly who had come there to study. Perhaps there were young women there in school but I never saw them. Dearborn is a large enclave of folks of this ethnicity. In the club, they were aggressive, angry, obnoxious, threatening and down right scary. But, they had money and the club owner valued that over the safety of his non-Arabic customers. Several times I saw non-Arab customers carried out after being gang mobbed by the "cousins" as they called themselves. More than once they knifed some guy just because he had brought his girlfriend in and one of the "cousins" had taken a liking to her and was harassing the couple. This isn't meant to dispute any statements above that describe these races as hospitable and giving. They may well behave that way in their home countrys where, as someone has already mentioned, the rule of law is Islam. Here in the US, where those restrictions were relaxed, they were frightening. I don't intend this as a blanket condemnation of the middle east races. Certainly there are some peace loving and very honorable men and women there but there is a streak of cruelty in some that is beyond belief. Just my observations...[/b][/quote]My experience has been pretty much what I described in earlier posts when visiting their country. Here in the U.S., it's been a mixed bag. I've been treated really poorly by Jewish Iranians. However, I've been treated really well by Iranian, Armenian, Israeli, and Lebanese people here at work and elsewhere. My friends and neighbors have noticed very similar things. Our operating theory right now - and we don't have any proof so much as it's a hunch - is that so far, many of the very rude people seem to be from wealthy families. Regardless, I take each person on a case-by-case basis. If they're rude, I chalk it up to them being rude and not much more than that. After all, there are assholes and wonderful people in every culture.

[Saint Johnny B]

Yeah, they come in all shapes and sizes and every culture/religion seems to have too many of them. Too bad the bad apples sometimes spoil some people's perception of the entire orchard.

[Dan South]

I just came across [url=http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/08/17/saudi.clerics.ap/index.html]this interesting article[/url] . It was originally published in August.