OT: Any Middle East Experts Here?

[Saint Johnny B]

Please tell us about the culture, religion, education, economy and everthing else you may know about the middle east. I would like to know a little more about Osamma Bin Laden. OK, we know his family are business partners with the Bush Family. But what is this guy Osamma really saying? Why would anyone be that angry at the Bush Administration? And apparently AQ, is not just in the middle east, there are rebels in the Phillipines associtated with the AQ. What is it that is making them angry? And instead of coming up with stupid simplistic suggestions like "Let's just bomb the hell out them," maybe we can discuss some workable real world solutions that could bring the world more peace. These guys must be feeling as if they have been violated to the core of their souls if they are willing to do things like crash planes into buildings, but who do they see as the violaters and why? Do they all believe they are freedom fighters? Are they just objecting to foreign occupation of their soil? Do they see Corporate America as some kind of evil? What are the factors that are going around in their heads? By no means do I ask for "side taking" arguments, but rather, some objective facts would be helpful for everyone's understanding.

[ibescotty]

I am no expert, but I have been to the Middle East. I have been to Bahrain, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia. I can only offer impressions. Religion permeates everything. They have speakers all over the city blaring out the morning and evening prayers. The prayers are chants and I found them somewhat soothing sometimes. I suspect that was the desired effect. The Women are mostly covered most of the time in public. There is a definite old world attitude towards the role of a man and women in their society. Now Bahrain is a little island off the coast of Saudi. The people there enjoy lots more freedom then the people in Saudi. Saudi is the holy land and there is no booze, and Islamic law is stricter. I'm not sure about Saudi but in Bahrain a women could only cast off the traditional garb and be western if her father or oldest responsible male in her family permitted it. I don't think that's the same on the mainland but I'm not sure about that one. We ate at a Taco Bell (I think it was) in Saudi one time and there were three eating sections. One for men, one for Women, and one for families. If your not in a family it is improper for a man and women to be together in public or something like that. Law in Saudi Arabia is enforced my Islamic Clerics and the law is very strict. You steal? You might lose your hand. You kill? You'll lose your head. No Shit!! I think that can bread all kinds of discontent amongst the masses I'm sure. I'm no expert though. One thing that stands out about the people is that they were very fun loving. I went to an event in a tent where everyone sat on the floor, smoked big tobacco pipes (flavored tobacco was really good). There was a band of 8-10 guys. Mostly drums. There was a keyboard I think. A singer with a full PA. Hard to remember all the detail but I remember having a good time listening and feeling the music though I didn't know what it was about. The Saudi's used to really like to come over to Bahrain and have a drink or two. Usually it wouldn't take them long before they were pretty smashed. With regular waitresses and bar maids they would even get rowdy and misbehave. People like the rest of us in different circumstances. One thing that really stands out as well is the art of the bargain. They loved to haggle over everything. No price was set in stone anywhere. From the Gold Sukes to buying a pair of shoes. They seemed to live for the negotiation. "How much for this watch?" "For you my friend, 2 Dinar!!" So the haggling would start. I would usually lose but it was fun either way. This is what I remember. Their society has it's roots in antiquity. We may not agree with the flaws in their world. They see our flaws much the same way. I was tolerant and I even made a few friends along the way.

[Brittanylips]

If you're really interested, that's great. You should go to a book store, ask them for five books, and read them. (Or library, but I prefer reading fresh books). It's really too broad a topic to learn much from a two paragraph answer from someone on a Bullitan Board. Imagine someone on the middle eastern SSS asking "OK, tell me about Western culture, religion, government, history, etc." -Peace, Love, and Brittanylips

[KenElevenShadows]

I had a couple of extremely detailed threads and posts about my observations in Morocco and Kashmir. You may be able to find them if you do a search on them. I left the post on Kashmir maybe a couple of years ago. I realize that Kashmir is not Arabic (although the region is predominantly Muslim), but perhaps you might find some of the observations very interesting nevertheless.

[KenElevenShadows]

http://www.elevenshadows.com/travels/kashmir1.htm [url=http://www.elevenshadows.com/travels/kashmir1.htm]Some observations and pictures of Kashmir and its people [/url] I was here for 5 1/2 weeks in 1997, and have posted on this numerous times. Some friends, including on this forum, helped save the house of the people in the first two pictures on this particular page (Fayaz and family). His son is the first picture.

[fantasticsound]

I was in Kuwait, Qatar, Oman, Bahrain, Afghanistan, Pakistan, in March of 2002. I haven't been back to Egypt since the winter or 1980-1. The Saudi peninsula states have varying degrees of strict adherence to Islamic law. I haven't been to Saudi, but I understand it's, by far, the strictest. In the states we did visit, our female lead singer covered her body, albeit in western clothes, not a traditional covering. When we were on most bases, they relaxed the restrictions so she could perform in her sexy stage outfits. In Afghanistan and Pakistan we stayed on base the entire time, so I have no impression of the surrounding culture. All the small, Saudi peninsula states have Western influence in their cities, with Bahrain, by far, being the most like our cities. Hardees, McDonald's, Applebees, TGI Fridays, and KFC were all on hand in several, if not all of these states. My impressions are limited, however, we saw a very odd dichotomy aruond Kuwait City. The city itself is fairly modern, most of it built or rebuilt since Gulf War I. Just outside the latest developments, however, live bedouins in tents... on desolate land with some grass and few plants just blocks away from large, modern homes. My favorite image of bedouin life near the city? The tents with large satellite television dishes beside them! :D I kid you not. In Qatar we went to a camel race track in the middle of nowhere. Adults force young children to race these animals. The smallest rider who can stay on and control the animals are prized. They earn almost nothing. :( I wish I'd had the opportunity to see more of the native culture. Unfortunately, although we saw little of it, there was a huge potential for danger. So we spent most of our time, with the exception of Bahrain, on American army and airforce bases. (And on the U.S.S. JFK., but there wasn't much "native culture" in the middle of the Arabian Sea. Like Brittany Lips mentioned, I don't expect this really tells you much of anything. I don't claim to know much about the culture I visited. Even books will give you only a tiny picture of reality in this part of the world. If you get a chance, I suggest you visit some of these countries. (I never thought I'd have the chance to see this area of the world, so believe me, it can happen to you.. ;) )

[KenElevenShadows]

Regarding your last paragraph or so - well, I'm gonna get blasted for this again, but whatever - the prevalent feeling has been that because of the intense military aggression from the U.S. in the Middle East and the propping up of oppressive regimes such as the Royal Saud family in Saudi Arabia, they see the U.S. as an enemy. The U.S. has committed acts of military aggression and/or tried to depose leaders in Egypt, Palestine, Somalia, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Lebanon, Sudan, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, and so forth, and supported the Royal Sauds and the Taliban in an effort to get oil (the U.S. gave $46 million to the Taliban months before invading them and eliminating them). I've gotten this information from Eric Margolis' book as well as from traveling in North Africa and talking to well-informed citizens. Call this anti-American or whatever, but a great deal of people harbor deep resentment for doing so. If another country were propping up an oppressive regime here in the U.S., people would be fighting mad. And it's the same in another region. The U.S. has been by far the largest military aggressor in the Middle East, and people are royally pissed off, especially the fundamentalists. And yes, the Middle East has had more than its share of troubles and war. It's a harsh environment. But in the question you are asking, this is pretty much besides the point. And do remember, during my travels in the Arabic world, 98% of the people were SUPER nice. I mean, absurdly so. That was my experience. Very hospitable, and super super nice, welcoming you inside their house, cooking incredible dinners, or just talking over a glass of mint tea. It's VERY IMPORTANT to consider this. People in the U.S. often equate "Islam" with "terrorist", and it's just not so. Most people are very very kind, and very very nice. But many are resentful of aggressive military action against their own people, and a very small percentage are willing to wage any sick war that they can to try and stop this. I don't condone terrorism in any form, whether it's Western terrorism or Eastern terrorism or Middle Eastern terrorism or whatever. But it is very important to understand WHY people are pissed off, and try to alleviate that (which, in this case, would mean stop propping up the Royal Sauds and others and squeezing people for oil - the Royal Sauds are one of the most oppressive regimes in the world by pretty much any measure). I hope this sheds some light on the Arabic point of view in terms of how you couched the question. I have many many more observations that are not related to oil, war, or oppression, and would be happy to discuss those at some point.

[Botch.]

Ken, I wish your last post could be read by a lot more folks than just us SSSer's; very well said. :thu:

[KenElevenShadows]

[quote]Originally posted by Brittanylips: [b]If you're really interested, that's great. You should go to a book store, ask them for five books, and read them. (Or library, but I prefer reading fresh books). It's really too broad a topic to learn much from a two paragraph answer from someone on a Bullitan Board. Imagine someone on the middle eastern SSS asking "OK, tell me about Western culture, religion, government, history, etc." -Peace, Love, and Brittanylips[/b][/quote]I would totally agree with this. How can you sum this up? For further understanding, I would highly recommend this following book. From my personal experience, this book would seem to be highly accurate: [url=http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1578261171/103-5801966-3177425?v=glance]"The Arab Mind" by Raphael Patai[/url] I typed out quite a lot of observations a while back that were based on a synthesis of this book and my own personal observations. I can't find it, but it was in SSS. I suspect that it is in the archives now. Do a search on this if you are so inclined. I hope this helps. If you read it and you come away with the feeling that I was simultaneously in admiration and appalled by some of the Arabic people that I met, you'd probably be right. Like I said in the previous post, 98% were very wonderful, sweet people, the sort that you'd love to have as a next-door neighbor, friend, or family member. The remaining 2% or so were cheaters, liars, and seemingly perpetually angry. The other observation here is that for many Arabs, they tend to flit between extremes, often being kind of sedentary and very calm and welcoming. But almost like a light switch, they can fly into fits of rage. I'm talking eye-bulging, vessel-popping screaming and arguments and violence. I've never seen anything like it. The Kashmiris were a lot calmer. Hell, everyone I've seen have been calmer. But according to Dr. Patai and my own observations, this is in part due to the fact that Arabic people largely consider that they are not perfect, and do not have the apparent need to feel like they are in control of themselves at all times. In the West, people often apologize if we have "lost our temper", and while the Arabic people of course apologize too, their general feeling is that they are prone to lose their temper because they are not perfect, and only God (Allah) is perfect. They do not feel that flying into fits of rage is so wrong or abnormal as Westerners feel. While in Morocco, I saw more physical fights between Moroccans that I have in my entire life. I saw people hitting each other with pipes, pulling others down the street by the hair, screaming hysterically at the top of their lungs, etc. EVERY SINGLE DAY, sometimes several times in a day. Now, the average tourist might not see so much of this, but I was really off the beaten path a lot of the time and in small villages and in other parts of towns and cities much of the time. But it's pretty much everywhere. I was there for two months and saw at least eye-bulging, vein-popping hysterical screaming fights (and sometimes accompanying violence) EVERY SINGLE DAY. As you might guess, this is the part that I found alarming. Seemingly very calm people suddenly becoming enraged. The "Arab street", as Western journalists like to say, would not be a safe place if people were enraged en masse.

[Saint Johnny B]

My thanks too. I hope we hear a little more. :)

[KenElevenShadows]

[quote]Originally posted by Botch.: [b]Ken, I wish your last post could be read by a lot more folks than just us SSSer's; very well said. :thu: [/b][/quote]' Thank you very much. I've really tried to be impartial here, and write what I have seen with as little personal bias as possible. It's difficult to do that, but I feel it's really important to understand other people's points of view. In this case, I made these observations *before* 9/11. when I was in Kashmir in 1997 and Morocco in 1999. I have kept in touch with my Kashmiri friends and my Moroccan friends since then. I should note that the Kashmiris have a very different perspective on the U.S., as the majority of them envy the U.S. greatly, don't view the U.S. as this horrible creature (although they do not agree with everything that we do and largely opposed the invasion of Iraq but largely supported the invasion of Afghanistan), and look to the U.S. to try and get Pakistan and India to try and collaborate and reach some sort of peaceful agreement concerning its 50+ year long conflict over Kashmir. I wish that American people and Arabic people could somehow share the same experiences that I had. There would be so much less misunderstanding on both sides of the fence. It is so important to try and understand the other side. In my case, I was so lucky to have met so many people who were able to converse (sometimes passsionately so) about life, culture, politics, U.S. aggression in the Middle East, their hopes and dreams and wishes, everything, and to be able to share that while enjoying a good laugh and a glass of mint tea. I absolutely treasure those experiences, and feel like I've obtained a slightly better understanding of their points of view.

[KenElevenShadows]

BTW, I should add that I am an American of Chinese descent. However, because I am Chinese, I feel that when I travel, people often open up about Americans in this peculiar way in which they might not if I were caucasian. It's funny how disarming this little thing is. If they say something about the U.S., I think they feel more comfortable in saying it because they perceive me as someone "different" that still happens to live in the U.S. I got some very interesting conversation that way as well. And if they said something inflammatory about the U.S., instead of necessarily instantly defending it, I'd ask why they felt that way. This also opened things up quite a bit. At the same time, I did feel like, as a traveler, I am a sort of ambassador. I'd point out a lot of wonderful, beautiful things about the U.S., and why, warts and all, I love the U.S., even if I don't always agree with its foreign policies. This was especially important with American people, who I believe to be often very good people, often very generous when people are in need (see, for example, all those incredible examples of people coming together for the California wildfires, the World Trade Center calamities, and everything else - what incredible people!!). Okay, enough writing. I just wanted to try and express a tiny fraction of what I feel about the Arabic people and Muslims in general. I feel very strongly about them in many ways, and feel like if I write about them, I can impart a little bit about how I feel about them to others, and try to do so in a balanced manner, good parts and not-so-good parts.

[Prague]

I've been there many times.

[KenElevenShadows]

[quote]Originally posted by Johnny B: [b]My thanks too. I hope we hear a little more. :) [/b][/quote]You're welcome. [url=http://www.elevenshadows.com/travels/morocco.htm]Some observations and pictures of Morocco and its people[/url]

[Dan South]

Good, God! This is like reading some kind of thread about black people by people who've only seen one at a distance. "Oh, yeah, I hear that they like ta chase after dem WHITE women!" :mad: Eye-popping fits of rage? Yeah, I know a lot of AMERICANS like that. I'd guess that I know about five-hundered Arabs, have eaten in many of their homes and stayed with them on occasion, have attended family weddings, birthday parties, and New Years Eve parties with them. I haven't seen ANY of the behavior that's been described here! Quite the contrary. Arabs remind me a bit of Hispanics. They're a festive, fun-loving people. They love to dance and sing when they get together. Go to an Arab wedding reception sometime and watch what happens when they start playing so Arab songs. The place comes ALIVE! These are the people who invented BELLY dancing, for goodness sake! I suppose that there may be some zealots somewhere living in the shadows, punishing themselves for impure thoughts. But *I* sure haven't seen any of them. Some famous Arabs or people of Arab descent: Casey Kasem Omar Sharif Andre Agassi (father from Iran) Shakira Tony Shaloub (the "Monk" actor, he's Lebanese) Salma Hayek (father from Lebanon, mother from Spain) Think about your impressions of these famous people. Do they fit the stereotype descriptions in this thread? I don't think so. They seem like fun, nice, polite, upper class people, just like ALL of the Arabs that I've had the pleasure to meet. I applaud quest for knowledge that this thread represents, but talking to people who've only been on military bases or in corporate compounds in Saudi Arabia isn't going to give you a cross section of Arab life. Go to a Lebanese or Middle Eastern restaurant sometime, preferably on "belly dancer night." Have a good time. Eat some good food and some great entertainment. Meet some nice people. That's the only way that you'll ever get to know Arabs or any ethnic group. You may find that we all have a lot in common.

[michael saulnier]

[quote]Originally posted by Johnny B: [b]Please tell us about the culture, religion, education, economy and everthing else you may know about the middle east. I would like to know a little more about Osamma Bin Laden. OK, we know his family are business partners with the Bush Family. [/b][/quote]I’m assuming you’re actually interested in an answer to your questions, although I noticed your “jab” at the “connection” between the Bin Laden family and Bush… but, OK, let’s start with the Bin Laden’s. To start with, you need to remember that the Bin Laden family is one of the largest, wealthiest, most influential families outside the Royal Family in Saudi Arabia. The “family business” is construction and they were the builders of many, if not most, of the major public projects including palaces and so on. This made them VERY wealthy and and in much of the Islamic world that wealth means you can have multiple wives and therefore MANY children. I’m not remembering exactly how many, but I recall Osama is in the middle… like the 17th son or something. But he comes from a MULTI-BILLIONAIRE type family that is VERY connected with the Royal Family. Osama is a BLACK SHEEP, officially CUT OFF from the family fortune. Mainly this seems to be for his desire to remove the Royal Family from power, a position the leaders of the Bin Laden family cannot publicly support, (even if in private they did). I don’t know whether through their dealings in the oil business in the mid-east, the Bush family did business with the Bin Laden family, but if they did, it would probably be involved in some sort of construction project, completely with the knowledge and support of the Royal Family, and probably what would be called a “legitimate” business activity. So to try to “connect” Osama Bin Laden with the Bush family because of business the Bush’s did with the Bin Laden’s is to misunderstand what the Bin Laden family is all about. They ARE the “establishment” in Saudi Arabia and dealing with them would NOT be considered supporting Osama, his ideas, or his cause. [quote][b] But what is this guy Osamma really saying? Why would anyone be that angry at the Bush Administration? [/b][/quote]The following “summary” of Osama Bin Laden is from my memory, so I apologize in advance for any errors or omissions in my “story”… Osama Bin Laden formed his ideology including his hatred for “America, the Great Satan”, well before the current Bush administration. In his early 20’s he was pretty much a rich, spoiled playboy type who enjoyed leaving Saudi to go to neighboring countries where western style partying was available and he was active in it. The proverbial wine, women and song… all things “outlawed” in Saudi Arabia. He didn’t seem to care much for politics, and hadn’t distinguished himself much in that time period. It was likely that if things had proceeded “normally”, he probably would have found a cushy job in the family business, and lived out a life of luxury and privilege, like the rest of his brothers have. Then came the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. For Osama Bin Laden this was an opportunity. He decided to participate in the resistance to the invasion, and brought money and influence to this cause. However unlike other wealthy Saudi’s who supported the resistance with only money, he decided to get PERSONALLY involved. This was the beginning of the OBL myth and mystique. He traveled to Afghanistan and joined the jihad, the “holy war” against the Soviets. In the geopolitics of the moment, the US also supported the jihad, since it had the potential to damage the Soviet Union and the US wished the Soviets out of Afghanistan. So for a time, OBL, and the US were allies in a cause of convenience, not because of a similar ideology, but because they both shared the goal of defeating the Soviet occupation. OBL welcomed US support, but was already forming ideology supported by his interpretation of the Koran and Islamic law that was incompatible with a long term positive relationship with the US or the western world in general. OBL turned out to be an effective resistance fighter and rose in power as a leader of troops. He learned much about what it took to stay away from Soviet efforts to locate and kill him, and how to attack them and exploit their weaknesses. He developed a lot of loyalty from his troops and began to build a reputation and someone who left the wealth and excess of his birth to fight in the “holy war” and live in the caves. The CIA was a part of the training the Afghani resistance fighters received, and they also got money, food, supplies, weapons and more. Ultimately, after 10 years of bloody fighting, the Soviets retreated from Afghanistan and quickly an internal civil war broke out. One of the most effective groups to emerge from this chaos was the Taliban… a ultra-conservative Islamic group that fit OBL’s growing Islamic fundamentalist ideas perfectly. As the Taliban began capturing more and more territory, eventually leading to a complete domination of Afghanistan, OBL was in close alliance with the Taliban leaders. The US accepted the Taliban’s control of Afghanistan and gave the “official” status as the leaders of Afghanistan. The US supported some of the changes the Taliban implemented, particularly their destruction of the poppy production, but spoke out against some of the oppressive actions of the Taliban. But in all, Afghanistan really wasn’t a priority once the Soviets left and soon imploded. Then came the invasion of Kuwait by Saddam Hussein. This prompted the involvement of the US military in the defense of Saudi Arabia and the movement of hundreds of thousands of troops into Saudi Arabia in advance of Desert Storm and the removal of Saddam’s forces out of Kuwait. It’s important to understand that Saudi Arabia has a special place in the mind of Muslims and particularly the Islamic fundamentalists. Because of the “holy shrines” that are there, the whole country is considered “sacred” in a way that has no equivalent in the western world. The mere presence of US troops on Saudi soil was considered a horrible defilement of sacred land, and as a result, OBL developed an even greater hatred of the US and the Saudi Royal Family who allowed this to happen. He believed the troops were a pretext for a long term occupation of Saudi Arabia and felt it was his holy mission to do whatever he could to keep this from happening. Even though the US troops were INVITED, even though they PROTECTED Saudi Arabia from Saddam, Even though they were successful in defeating Saddam… OBL HATED that this all happened… especially when, as he predicted and feared, the US military settled into its Saudi bases with every indication they would be there for the foreseeable future. So here’s the “explanation” of OBL’s hatred of the US…note NOT only BUSH… but the WHOLE US. Religious Islamic fundamentalism that makes most things western “illegal, immoral, and satanic”, combined with the burning desire to push the US out of Saudi Arabia like the Soviets were pushed out of Afghanistan. Only instead of openly creating a conflict in Saudi Arabia, he launched a world-wide Jihad, or “Holy War” from his safe haven in Afghanistan. Attacks on the Cole, then embassies in Africa, (where OBL once lived and operated), all lead to 9/11. You probably know much of what happened next. [quote][b] And apparently AQ, is not just in the middle east, there are rebels in the Phillipines associtated with the AQ. What is it that is making them angry? [/b][/quote]OBL wanted attacks on the US and US interests anywhere in the world he could. The rebels in the Philippines are also Muslim fundamentalists, and share a common world view, as well as the overthrow of the pro-western government in power. It’s not hard to understand why they have common hatred against the US. [quote][b] And instead of coming up with stupid simplistic suggestions like "Let's just bomb the hell out them," maybe we can discuss some workable real world solutions that could bring the world more peace. [/b][/quote]You have to understand that OBL and his followers aren’t INTERESTED in a “negotiated solution”. They see the only acceptable outcome to be the elimination of the US, and its effect on the world. There’s no compromise, no co-operation, no co-existence possible. In their mind, WE are the “Great Satan” and they MUST eliminate us. And they are willing to die to do so. Sadly, your idea of “workable real world solutions that could bring the world more peace” are a bit naïve. If your opponent does not see peace as a successful outcome, and won’t agree to peaceful co-existence, the chance of peace is not likely. Given the chance, OBL and his followers would kill US anti-war supporters just as quickly as they would kill the most vengeful pro-war supporters. There’s no part of our life, culture, existence, they don’t want to wipe out. [quote][b] These guys must be feeling as if they have been violated to the core of their souls if they are willing to do things like crash planes into buildings, but who do they see as the violaters and why? [/b][/quote]Yup. They are CONVINCED they are correct. Motivated by religious ideals, there is no “logic” that will sway them from their goals. [b] [quote] Do they all believe they are freedom fighters? Are they just objecting to foreign occupation of their soil? Do they see Corporate America as some kind of evil? What are the factors that are going around in their heads? By no means do I ask for "side taking" arguments, but rather, some objective facts would be helpful for everyone's understanding.[/b][/quote]Hopefully this inspires you to do some of your own research. Good luck! guitplayer

[michael saulnier]

Dan, Stereotypes are almost always incorrect and easily refuted. Arab, Mexican, American, French, German, Japanese... you name a "category", you can name stereotypes that go withit... then name people who are exceptions to that. All that being said. The people who follow OBL have a common hatred for all of us in the US. It's what brings them together. Not all of OBL's supporters are Arab, but many are. Certainly not all Arabs are OBL supporters. Of course. Most, but probably not all OBL's supporters are muslims, but many are. Certainly not all Muslims are OBL supporters. Of course. Johnny asked some questions. Ones he probably should have known the answers to, if he was following all the post-9/11 information that was made available... but oh, well. guitplayer

[Saint Johnny B]

Somehow I question the assertion that OBL wants to kill every American. It just does not sit right somehow. I know he may have made some wild statements and done some bad things, still, I don't see this guy, someone who presumably got some kind of westernized education as he is from a rich family, as taking a gun to the head of every single American and pulling the trigger. My guess would be that if the US miliatry were not in SA, then that would go a long way to making OBL and his followers chill out. But this is entirely speculation on my part, I do not know the man, never talked to him, and never read his writings. But I'm trying to understand his side of things, not that I will ever agree with him or some of his alleged tactics. Incidently, I've heard baptist ministers and catholic priests say some outlandish things in the past, they usu do that to make a point, they do not mean to have their words taken so literally. I only say this in reference to the "US equals Satan" remarks, which could mean many things on many levels. It does not necessarily mean kill every man woman and child in America. For example, baptists often talk about being "reborn" in this lifetime, and that means a "death" to individual's old self. My only point is that we must be careful when we interpret other people's language. I'm still hoping that some of you will continue to post and share your thoughts and knowledge. Thanks. :)

[Charlie-brm]

Good point Dan about getting off the base or geez people, eat somewhere other than a Taco Bell for chrissakes. But I think you have to give Ken some credit for having been in several Islamic and/or Arabic countries (I don't equate the two). Knowing 500 people [i]from[/i] the Middle East is not the same thing and immigrants tend to eventually fit in. Arab men can be seen holding hands all the time when out for a walk but not over here. I don't know any young Muslims who fast during daylight for Rammadan or roll out the prayer mat thrice daily - it interferes with running a retail business. But in Cairo or Damascus, it doesn't raise an eyebrow for some men to get in a prayer in the waiting area of an airport if there is time. When in Rome . . . As for my personal experiences, I layed that out in part back in April. One thing to note is that a majority of Arabs I have dealt with in N.A. and abroad turned out to be Christians of one kind or another. Go figure. The Muslims being mostly Pakistanis or S.E. Asians.

[deanmass]

Ken, well said all around... In my DJ days, ANY ethnic wedding was a TON of fun. There was always great food, great partying, and the other thing was that they never got falling down drunk to go out and dance. And, the parties were inclusive, i.e. kids to Granny. I did a Persian wedding once where I was hired to play during the breaks the band took. When I was not doing the DJ thing, thew threw me a drum. It was incredible. All in all, I think in general, American's view the rest of the world as beneath us in some way. I don't mean to offend anyone by that, just my own personal observation. I also think many of us ( Americans) think that the way some of the conditions the people around the globe live under will never trickle to us, but, unfortunately, it is already trickling in.

[Dan South]

[quote]Originally posted by Charlie-brm: [b] As for my personal experiences, I layed that out in part back in April. One thing to note is that a majority of Arabs I have dealt with in N.A. and abroad turned out to be Christians of one kind or another. Go figure. The Muslims being mostly Pakistanis or S.E. Asians.[/b][/quote]Yes, most of the Arabs that I know are Christians, but I do know several Muslim Arabs (and Muslims of other ethnicities, like Indian and African), and well, they're all very decent people. The has been an Exodus of Christians from the region in recent decades due to the rise of (a) radical Islamic fundamentalism and (b) repressive governments. Cairo was once a very lively and cosmopolitain city, like Paris or Rio. Not anymore, and my Egyptian friends are genuinely saddened by this.

[Dan South]

[quote]Originally posted by guitplayer: [b] Not all of OBL's supporters are Arab, but many are. Certainly not all Arabs are OBL supporters. Of course. Most, but probably not all OBL's supporters are muslims, but many are. Certainly not all Muslims are OBL supporters. Of course. [/b][/quote]You forgot one very important point. Most Muslims are NOT Arabs. Yet, here in America, the two are thought of as synonymous.

[Dan South]

[quote]Originally posted by Johnny B: [b]Somehow I question the assertion that OBL wants to kill every American.[/b][/quote]Well, the guy obviously takes great pleasure in killing people, even fellow Arabs and Muslims, so I wouldn't expect a logical plan from him. On the other hand, if America would completely drop all Middle Eastern affairs, OBL would probably pull back on the attacks. I'm not saying that that's what we should do, but I think that his main gripe is that we, in his view, are meddling in the affairs of his homeland. If over the long term we can make our dealings in the region seem more egalitarian and supportive of the people who live there - no, that doesn't mean dropping bombs on country after country - we'll probably have less trouble with the militant factions.

[michael saulnier]

[quote]Originally posted by Johnny B: [b]Somehow I question the assertion that OBL wants to kill every American. It just does not sit right somehow. I know he may have made some wild statements and done some bad things, still, I don't see this guy, someone who presumably got some kind of westernized education as he is from a rich family, as taking a gun to the head of every single American and pulling the trigger. My guess would be that if the US miliatry were not in SA, then that would go a long way to making OBL and his followers chill out. But this is entirely speculation on my part, I do not know the man, never talked to him, and never read his writings. But I'm trying to understand his side of things, not that I will ever agree with him or some of his alleged tactics. Incidently, I've heard baptist ministers and catholic priests say some outlandish things in the past, they usu do that to make a point, they do not mean to have their words taken so literally. I only say this in reference to the "US equals Satan" remarks, which could mean many things on many levels. It does not necessarily mean kill every man woman and child in America. For example, baptists often talk about being "reborn" in this lifetime, and that means a "death" to individual's old self. My only point is that we must be careful when we interpret other people's language. I'm still hoping that some of you will continue to post and share your thoughts and knowledge. Thanks. :) [/b][/quote]Johnny, you make me laugh... Here's the guy who believes with the utmost PASSION, every fibre of his being... anything negative he reads or hears about the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA... But it doesn't sit right with him that Bin Laden and his fanatics want to kill Americans. Indiscriminately. Sure he's said some "wild things" and done some "bad things"... Of course they really weren't behind 9/11... as SOME would quickly tell you, that's all a smoke screen for the real truth... that Bush, the CIA... someone in the US Government... CERTAINLY not Bin Laden was behind that. And of course... don't forget they have PROOF! But THAT sits right. No objection there. We just need to leave Saudi Arabia and Bin Laden and his people... well, they'll just "chill out". Yeah, that "feels right". God bless you man. guitplayer

[michael saulnier]

Oh yeah, when they say the US is the "GREAT SATAN"... well that's just... well... A MISUNDERSTANDING. Yeah, that "feels right". guitplayer

[Salyphus]

Well, GUITSQUIDDLER, thanks for demonstrating your lack of reading comprehension skills in your failed attempt at representing my views. Next time I'll speak for myself, thanks :mad: I haven't even been involved in this thread. You're over the line again, buddy boy. Buck up!

[michael saulnier]

Sal, It took me only a minute to find this... Perhaps... I did MISREPRESENT you... But it just felt... RIGHT. But I only had my memory of reading THIS... [quote]Originally posted by salOboscis: [b]9/11 == Biggest Scapegoat Since Communism In my opinion the Bush administration was at the least complicit in allowing the terrorist attacks to happen. ALL the evidence points to this, do some research and you will see.[/b][/quote]Of course the meaning of your post seems to be clear... But then, who knows? Accept my apologies... of course. :wave: guitplayer

[ibescotty]

Gee I sure hope that nobody took my initial post as stereo typing. Those where my general impressions. My experience. I certainly don't judge anyone or anything that I saw or experienced. I had a wonderful time, and I was out there experiencing the culture. Least I thought I was...

[Dan South]

I know a guy who was in Saudi Arabia when his father was working there. They went to a beheading once. They said that the blood goes EVERYWHERE. It's probably not as disgusting as the electric chair, though.

[ibescotty]

[quote]Originally posted by Dan South: [b]I know a guy who was in Saudi Arabia when his father was working there. They went to a beheading once. They said that the blood goes EVERYWHERE. It's probably not as disgusting as the electric chair, though.[/b][/quote]I could never bring myself to do something like that. I remember reading in the paper that a guy got caught embezzling like 10 million $$$$ Sentence? Lost both his arms and legs...