OT: Poll--Rush Limbaugh - A Drug Addict's Punishment

[Griffinator]

[quote]Originally posted by Wow: [b]TRUE. Your vote does mean SOMETHING though. :thu: [/b][/quote]Sure. On the local level, we have a pseudo-democratic system. As far as I'm concerned, that system is merely a front to pacify the masses, while those with wealth and the power that comes with that wealth fully control the most critical decisions that affect all our lives.

[Wow]

You seem like a strong supporter of the 10th amendment. I think individual States should be given their power back. You make a good argument AGAINST the federal government. I knew GZ and I would finally bring you back from the dark-side. :D

[Griffinator]

[quote]Originally posted by Wow: [b]You seem like a strong supporter of the 10th amendment. I think individual States should be given their power back. You make a good argument AGAINST the federal government. I knew GZ and I would finally bring you back from the dark-side. :D [/b][/quote]I've never been a fan of big federal government, and I've never been a Democrat. You guys just wouldn't listen to me when I said (repeatedly) that I'm a hardcore Libertarian who believes in both personal rights and personal responsibility [b]as a matched set[/b].

[Peake]

Isn't the worst punishment for Rush Limbaugh....having to BE Rush Limbaugh?

[GZsound]

[b]Originally posted by Griffinator: I wouldn't go parading that around just yet, Mark. The vast majority of Wall Street analysts believe that this spike is [b]strictly[/b] due to the tax rebate checks everyone got in July.[/b] I agree and I am not "parading" it around. It was just a response to Johnny B and the Bush Killed The Economy rant. I am also concerned about the job loss. However, a six percent unemployment is not as big a deal as some would make it out to be. I personally think unemployment numbers will get better because of the very robust housing starts, the historic low mortgage rates and such data as low inventory, and expected expansion in manufacturing. But you are right.. One good report doesn't make a trend and I am still hopefull the economy is making a rebound and jobs will follow. [b]Businesses are still not investing - and definitely not hiring. That's the biggest measure of a real economic recovery.{/b] Again, I agree they aren't hiring, however there are indicators that business is expanding. Let us hope hiring follows expansion. [b]That said, if 4th quarter shows a similar (or even close to) growth percentage, feel free to throw it back at me. Meanwhile, I wouldn't be in such a "Rush" to trumpet these figures around - especially since 44,000 more people hit the unemployment line in 3rd quarter...[/b] I don't doubt your numbers although I have heard there was a net gain of 57,000 jobs, but again, you are correct. Numbers that small are not making much difference. And I have no plans to throw anything back at anybody. I have learned my lesson... There will never be any good news accepted about this administration or this country from some on this forum. However, it is kind of fun to watch the democratic presidential candidates deal with this good economic news.

[alcohol]

If the economy continues to improve, unemployment decreases and the budget deficit decreases, we will have learned something and Bush will be reelected unless Iraq is more problematic. Actually I suspect that Bush will spend money like a sailor to keep the economy buoyant and then the cost of that spending will be payed later. Everyone looks rich when they spend on credit. I have my own set of beliefs and observations about how the economy works. If Bush has economic success that negates those beliefs I will change my mind. It's still wait and see time.

[Wow]

Dont expect 7% next time, it might be 4%.

[Saint Johnny B]

GZ, Yeah, i heard about the "jobless recovery." But I find it more interesting that the Bush Gang are not counting everyone, hmm, that sounds like something I've heard before. Funny counting, funny, fake accounting, and funny numbers. Oh, and the lies to go to war, the Bush Gang has zero cred. Also, if you do some searches, you will find that the Bush Gang has systematically begun a campaign to report fraudulent numbers. The mainstream press has reported on the Bush number juggling act. Trust the Bush Gang to do reports that are honest? No way. Trust that Rush will get religion and stop spreading hate on the people's airwaves? Nope, I don't believe that Rush will be a reformed hater either. I predict, Rush's bitter invectives will continue to litter the public's airwaves. In fact, I think Rush will go back out in the street and buy drugs again. The man is clearly in too much pain to stop using drugs.

[Hanshananigan]

[quote]Originally posted by Wow: [b] That is what America is, the positive out-weighing the negative, MANY have died, all for the right to be free. FREEDOM in IRAQ. FREEDOM in America. FREEDOM in China. FREEDOM in Iran. FREEDOM and CAPITALISM. Religion has NOTHING to do with it.[/b][/quote]The only TRUE FREEDOM is ANARCHY!!! :)

[Griffinator]

[quote]Originally posted by GZsound: [b]I agree and I am not "parading" it around. It was just a response to Johnny B and the Bush Killed The Economy rant. I am also concerned about the job loss. However, a six percent unemployment is not as big a deal as some would make it out to be. I personally think unemployment numbers will get better because of the very robust housing starts, the historic low mortgage rates and such data as low inventory, and expected expansion in manufacturing. [/b][/quote]That's all well and good, but if you look at some of the numbers out there, it's not quite so rosy. USA Today reported on Friday that there has been a 75% [b]drop[/b] in new mortgage applications since same time last year. The interest rates have been at rock bottom since the beginning of Bush's tenure - people have all done their refinancing and are hunkering down for what figures to be a long, cold economic winter. Once again, I don't blame Bush for the economic downturn. I'm livid at the distraction tactics - cheezy kickbacks (did you get your $600 check?) and war abroad in a futile effort to keep the domestic focus off the big domestic problems. [quote][b]But you are right.. One good report doesn't make a trend and I am still hopefull the economy is making a rebound and jobs will follow. Again, I agree they aren't hiring, however there are indicators that business is expanding. Let us hope hiring follows expansion. I don't doubt your numbers although I have heard there was a net gain of 57,000 jobs, but again, you are correct. Numbers that small are not making much difference. And I have no plans to throw anything back at anybody. I have learned my lesson... There will never be any good news accepted about this administration or this country from some on this forum. However, it is kind of fun to watch the democratic presidential candidates deal with this good economic news.[/b][/quote]LOL. I'll be the first one to admit my error if there is real economic recovery that can be directly correlated to these tax cuts. As far as the business indicators, yes there was some business spending in that economic spike, but everyone in the manufacturing sector is saying the same thing - "we need to see sustained sales increase before we can take the risk of hiring more people" Meanwhile, I shake my head in disbelief at the simple equation: If a person doesn't have a job, s/he can't very well buy stuff. If your economy is totally driven by people buying stuff, then you'd better make damned sure they have jobs, eh? My old underblurb sticks out like a sore thumb right now... [b]Welcome to the United States of Imperialist Plutocracy. Now SHUT UP and START CONSUMING![/b]

[alcohol_]

An article for the curious. Numbers included. "As the United States heads into another national election season, there is a growing disconnect between production on the one hand and jobs and income on the other. At some point, the disconnect is either going to go away or George W. Bush is going to find himself in trouble" http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2003/11/04/economy_leaves_workers_behind?mode=PF

[Griffinator]

That's exactly what I'm talking about, Alc. Dubya can't pull out any more midyear tax checks without completely screwing the fed, and quite possibly driving us into bankruptcy as a nation (believe it or not, Wow, we haven't gotten there yet) And with the economic indicators laying around in plain sight for all to see, it's not difficult to take two plus two and come up with four. Bush's spin: See! The Reaganomics plan really does work! Cut taxes, blow billions on wasteful military spending, and watch the economy grow! Reality: The instant effect of throwing $600 out to every household with kids is a surge in spending. No job creation as a result, because when the money's gone, the sales slip away again, and no one hires workers because, well, the sales jump was a phantom.

[Chuck Moore]

Regarding an individuals ability to influence the political process, I think some of you are missing the point. Corporations don't vote, people do. While it's true they give a lot of money, it's

[Chuck Moore]

not true that they donate to one party or the other, in fact they usually give to BOTH, so as to have access to whoever is the winner. As someone who has been "somewhat" of an insider on a few campaigns, I can tell you that a handwritten leter, or a personal phone call can make a difference to an official, sometimes a BIG difference. And if you want to help change things, instead of complaining and hurling wild claims and insults, try volunteering for a candidate you believe in, hand out fliers, be a poll watcher, give a little money to a campaign, it doesn't need to be thousands of dollars, 10 million people giving 20 bucks each makes for an impressive warchest, and you WILL be remembered. At the end of the day, if you don't get the votes, all the corporate money in the world won't help you.

[GZsound]

[b]Originally posted by Griffinator: USA Today reported on Friday that there has been a 75% [b]drop[/b] in new mortgage applications since same time last year.[/b] The drop is in mortgage applications. That is correct. However, understand we were experiencing record refinances over the last couple of years. Also keep in mind that a refinance does not add to the jobs market, although it adds to the economy. However, housing starts and home sales are at record highs. New homes create jobs. The mortgage rates are at record lows and expected to stay down for the near future. And I just know that irks some on this forum.. Building homes creates jobs. That's a good thing. The mortgage application numbers just mean a lot of folks took advantage of the low rates while they could. Trust me, I don't need USA Today to tell me my business is down..

[alcohol_]

GZ, your last post about mortgage rates supports recent articles that the growth rate isn't fueled by the tax rebate but by consumer spending from refinancing and borrowing. "Curiously, only about one-fifth of the quarter's high growth rate has resulted from the deficits. Most of it reflects low interest rates and consumer borrowing and spending" Robert Kutner, Boston Globe http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2003/11/05/growth_without_benefits/

[Griffinator]

[quote]Originally posted by GZsound: [b][b]Originally posted by Griffinator: USA Today reported on Friday that there has been a 75% [b]drop[/b] in new mortgage applications since same time last year.[/b] The drop is in mortgage applications. That is correct. However, understand we were experiencing record refinances over the last couple of years. Also keep in mind that a refinance does not add to the jobs market, although it adds to the economy. However, housing starts and home sales are at record highs. New homes create jobs. The mortgage rates are at record lows and expected to stay down for the near future. And I just know that irks some on this forum.. Building homes creates jobs. That's a good thing. The mortgage application numbers just mean a lot of folks took advantage of the low rates while they could. Trust me, I don't need USA Today to tell me my business is down..[/b][/quote]You're missing the point, Mark. The rates have been down for so long now that the vast majority of people who are capable of taking advantage have already done so. Yes, there has been a record number of refinances in the last few years - but those numbers are in decline right now because there's only so many people with houses that are in a position to refinance! I just bought my new house at the end of September. Got an outrageously low interest rate (4.185% fixed 30 year) and 20% down courtesy Lynchburg Neighborhood Development Foundation - a city-run office that subsidizes home-purchases for low income families (yes, that's right, I'm low-income. I haven't cleared more than $18K in one year my entire life.) If it hadn't been for all that, I wouldn't have been able to get a mortgage at all. I tried, repeatedly, over the last few years to qualify for Fannie Mae along with a variety of conventional loans. The problem with these record-low interest rates is that the banks are getting tougher and tougher about who they'll lend money to, because the profit margin on the loans is getting smaller and smaller, therefore they can't afford to take risks. Are you seeing what I'm trying to say here, Mark? If people don't have jobs, they can't buy houses. If no one is around to buy a house, you can't sell yours, so you can't go have a new one built. You've gotta remember, Mark, that the interest rates have been (relatively) down since Bush Sr. took office, and the Fed tried to avert the recession under his reign in the same way Greenspan tried under Jr's reign. For all his conservative bluster, Greenspan still hasn't learned that the interest rates are a way to accelerate existing economic growth, not a way to create growth. If he hadn't bottomed the interest rates out in 2000, he'd have a way right now to add fuel to Bush's little attempt at sparking new growth. He doesn't have that option anymore, because he blew it trying to prevent a recession.

[Philter]

Looks like trouble for Rush... now his medical records are seized... Nothing like a good "probing"... http://www.msnbc.com/news/1001269.asp

[Saint Johnny B]

Yup, bye-bye Rush!

[alcohol_]

The guy is complaining that it's a fishing expedition. Didn't he champion the Whitewater investigations? Looks like payback time for Rush. Good, he needs to learn a lesson.

[Saint Johnny B]

Karma?