Lookin' for guidance: mixdown and mastering

[YourMotherShouldKnow]

I'm gonna take 2 weeks and mix my CD starting next Wed (Oct 29). I hope some of you good, experienced folks will offer some guidance. I've read the Behind the Glass book and the Mixing Engineer's Handbook and those have helped a great deal. I'm still pretty shaky with reverbs and delays (and compression! oh, and EQing!) during the mix down. Anyhow...I hope some of you guys with experience will be around. After finishing up final overdubs this weekend I'll probobly post again with an actual mixing question. After mixdown I have to find a place to master it. I line in Maryland. I contacted AudioVisions in Wilmington, DE (emailed them twice) and haven't heard back from them so they're out. Is there anyone from this area that knows of a mastering house with a good rep? And I'm perfectly willing to FedEx my masters to California if it'd be worth it musically. I will genuinely appreciate your help going through this process. I'm using SONAR and I'm not even sure yet what I'll be mixing down to. I guess stereo wav.files. (Am I green or what?) I'm looking for a mix in the Perfect Circle mold, with what they used to call "Progressive Rock" sprinkled in.

[KenElevenShadows]

Regarding what you mix down to, you might want to figure out who is going to be doing the mastering first and then see what format they prefer, and whether that should be 24-bit, 16-bit, etc. etc. Bob Ohlsson in Novato, CA seems to have a good ear, and Trevor Sadler for Mastermind Productions (Wisconsin, I think) also seems to have a good ear. However, I don't know if they usually do the kind of music you mentioned, but nevertheless, they are probably quite skilled in numerous areas. Bob sort of knows who I am from posting on rec.audio.pro, and I've heard some of his work. I've never met Bob, just posted online and emailed a couple of times. Trevor Sadler most likely has no clue who I am, but one of my friends who was in a band with me knows him, and I've heard Trevor's work. I wouldn't rush the mixing, especially if you don't feel confident. Take your time, get it right, try listening on several different systems, go for drives while listening to it, have other people listen if you think it'll help, and make little tweaks if necessary as you go. Mixing isn't a race, so take your time and get it right. That's one of the wonderful things about DAWs - you can let it go for a while and then call your mix right back up. Take advantage of that. Don't overcompress. Remember that compression can be used for waveshaping - in other words, shaping the attack (less, more, etc.) and the decay, etc. It's not just for squashing. EQ is great, but think about cutting, not just boosting. Don't boost everything with EQ. Sweep around with your EQ to find obnoxious areas, and then cut. Use the sweep mode often. Cut conflicting areas. EQ is your friend. Listen. Listen. Listen. Don't use the graphs and waveforms exclusively. Really sit back and listen. Close your eyes. Go for drives with the mixes or play them on other stereo systems. A good mix should sound good on as many different speakers as possible. It should sound great on a boombox. It should sound great on expensive stereos. It should sound great in a car. It should sound great coming out of little tiny speakers. The more speakers it sounds good on, the better the job you are doing. Who cares if it sounds good in your studio if it blows on everyone else's speakers? Really listen, and it'll pay off for you. Yes, it's time-consuming, but you know, that's just part of being good sometimes! :D Hope this helps.

[kylen]

Hi LanceMo ! Good luck on your mixing. I would triple your time estimate if you just lack some experience but have the equipment and listening room on par with the folks that live in the 'Behind the Glass' and the 'Mixing Engineers Handbook'. If you don't have the room, or equipment or experience then I would multiply x 10. Then you can balance that estimate against what it would cost to get a studio to help, you could assist maybe so you can do it quicker next time within the 2 week requirement. You'd be surprised how quickly a week can go by when you're working on release times and hold times on a limiter. Or setting the attack for a snare or vocal. That's the easy part - when is it a good idea to put a 1/6 octave notch at 250Hz ? My knees are shakin just thinkin about EQing - but I got time so I'm not worried so much. Having good medium grade tools helps too - I just heard a song from a guy over at homerecording.com who used WAVES plugins that sounded pretty primo (the EQ was off just a very tiny touch - an ME could fix that easily). Speaking of ME's - what can they fix, what do they need to do the best job, etc. like Ken mentioned. You didn't say what equipment you have or anything so I'm guessing. This is the DIY voice from the garage ! :) kylen PS I forgot to ask what your expected distribution medium is - mp3 online, a few CD's distributed for airplay, or CD's for retail, demo for a publisher ?

[YourMotherShouldKnow]

Ken and Kylen, Thanks! I've given myself 2 weeks to mix this sucka starting on Wednesday. 11 songs. I have one straight acoustic instrumental and 3 or 4 others are 3-4 minutes long. I'm confident I can get it done to my satisfaction. (Wonder if I'll be sayin' that in 2 weeks?) Question: About reverb. What's the most effective way to apply to the tracks? My thought is that I can put, say, 5 different reverbs in the Aux busses (Lexicon Pantheon, FX verb..whatever else) and draw the effect from there. If that's the way I go is it best to leave the aux reverb send at 0 and adjust at each track? I know the answer is "BOTH, IDIOT!" but generally is there a most effective way to get those reverbs to sound optimal? A friend of mine had Billy Joel's "Innocent Man" playing the other night. Great song. But the reverb sounded horrible! Waaaaay too much. It made it hard to listen to. That's what I want to avoid. Question: Ken (or whoever wants to jump in), when engineers talk about sweeping through the EQ unit is there a way to do this more efficiently than moving each individual slider up and down? I'm pretty new to EQing so when I see things like "shelf" I pretend it's not there. :thu: I do understand the Q and that it's usually best to take sound away rather that pump the EQs up. Here too, should I set up EQ at the aux buss? Parametric or graphic? Delays I'm better with. I have an easier time getting the sound I want out of delays. I do want to try some really REALLY short delays. The word in these books I have is that short delays make things sound bigger. Again, thanks you guys.

[KenElevenShadows]

[quote]Originally posted by LanceMo: [QB] Question: Ken (or whoever wants to jump in), when engineers talk about sweeping through the EQ unit is there a way to do this more efficiently than moving each individual slider up and down? I'm pretty new to EQing so when I see things like "shelf" I pretend it's not there. :thu: I do understand the Q and that it's usually best to take sound away rather that pump the EQs up. Here too, should I set up EQ at the aux buss? Parametric or graphic? Delays I'm better with. I have an easier time getting the sound I want out of delays. I do want to try some really REALLY short delays. The word in these books I have is that short delays make things sound bigger. QB][/quote]Well, those are a lot of questions there! Sweeping is best done by moving the EQ slider (or knob) slowly around. I'm used to analog, but am getting comfortable with digital EQ, but it's really the same principle. I've been using EQ without using the aux in, but then again, I'm used to analog, with EQ on the board. You should be able to use EQ on the aux board in your DAW, but I've never actually done it. I did use gain optimization successfully the other day with an aux in, and I would imagine that if you can get away with that, you can get away with anything. Parametric or graphic: This largely depends on what you are trying to accomplish, right? I can't answer this. Read up on what parametric and graphic do, and see if it fits your application. And absolutely, short delays do make things sound bigger. I use this on my guitar all the time (Radiohead - Cocteau Twins - Innocence Mission sort of sound). Actually, I use several delays, so some of the delays are fairly obvious...

[Loopy C]

Hey Lance, When you get done, let me know. I can have one song mastered for you at no cost. That way you can hear for yourself what I can do for your music. If you would like more information you can email me (I didn't see an email address for you) as I do not like to "advertise" directly on this board (out of respect). BTW, if you don't know who Bob Ohlsson is and who he has worked with, you should find out. We are very lucky to have him around (check this bio, you'll see). http://www.prosoundweb.com/recording/tapeop/olmo/olmo.php Anyway, good luck in your next stages. If you have read those books the best thing to do now is MIX! Try to apply the technical information but mainly listen. Keep some of your favorite CD's around and constantly reference. Listen carefully INTO the mixes and try to recreate what you hear. This is mixing, everything else is just theory, tools, and guidelines.

[Loopy C]

BTW, some of us STILL call it progressive rock. :D

[YourMotherShouldKnow]

[quote]Originally posted by Ken/Eleven Shadows: [QB][QUOTE]Originally posted by LanceMo: [QB] Question: Parametric or graphic: This largely depends on what you are trying to accomplish, right? I can't answer this. Read up on what parametric and graphic do, and see if it fits your application. QB][/quote]Ok, I get it! I have a parametric on my Mackie board. On the mids you can set to a certain freq. and boost or lower that specific freq. That's what parametric EQ does. Only for any freq. Very cool and definitely something I need to know how to use. And shelving appears to be something like a mild high or low pass filter. And I didn't even have to ask my brother! And Kylen, to answer your question, my CD is a semi-pro affair. No record company involved. I've worked my tail off on this and am proud as can be of myself for it. I only hope to get it to the market and then see what happens from there. If nothing else, I like the stuff.

[YourMotherShouldKnow]

[quote]Originally posted by Loopy C: [b]Hey Lance, When you get done, let me know. I can have one song mastered for you at no cost. That way you can hear for yourself what I can do for your music. .[/b][/quote]Well, I definitely like that attitude Loopy C. I respect that approach and I'll be emailin' ya.

[Jedi]

Welcome LanceMo, There's been some great advice already, but I would like to add and reinforce some things from MHO. From one D.I.Y. to another don't overthink your mix. I use the automation on my machine to do an "instinctive mix," and then I move on to something else. I'll come back to it with fresh ears. It's easy with all the options that DAWs give us to put too much into plug ins and such. Focus on the song and performances and try not to get in the way of what's working. Take a lot breaks. Give your ears some rest. Use reference Cds and don't BS yourself on what you're hearing in comparison to your mix. Watch out for your low end. For me, it's real easy to make a muddy mix. Eq subtracting is great with a narrow q. Are you mixing solely on the Mackie? Is it a Mackie controllor for Sonar? Speakers, What kind are you using? Listen to your favorite Cds through your system and get use to your speakers and your room if you haven't already. Listen, Listen, Listen. I've doen some of my best mixes on really cheap speakers. I've got this theory that if you can't go hi-end go really low end like Radio Shack or something. Cheap computer speakers have worked great for me. I hope this helps. And I'm in Maryland, if you want to hook up(I'm close to D.C.) maybe I could give you a different ear. I'm into Radiohead, Afghan Whigs, Flaming Lips, Built to Spill, Sunny Day Real Estate, U2, I don't know if that's considered progressive Rock, or if you mean bands like Rush but maybe we can help each other. D.I.Y.s need to stick together, ya know. PM me if you like. Take care and Good luck, Lincoln Ross Dead Black Jedis

[Mr Darling]

If that is the first time you attempt mixing you are a brave man. However if you can, try to avoid the two weeks dead line, as a beginer, my best advice to you will be mix a song, live with it on a cd for a couple of days (at least) and go back to change what need changing.. My few first years of mixing, I mixed every track at least 4-5 times until completly satisfied (well the room was not all that as well). Now, when I have the time, I still do at least 2 mixes usually with a week in between. As for reverb : 5 reverbs, seems much to me.the reverb main job is to stick te track together.. if you use too many different ones you sort of go aginst that princepel. And yeah , a normal beginer mistake is to pile to much of it - so unless desired as an effect, simply add as little reverb as possible.. to the point that you almost don't hear it. Good luck man. Danny

[YourMotherShouldKnow]

[quote]Originally posted by Jedi: [b]Welcome LanceMo, Eq subtracting is great with a narrow q. Are you mixing solely on the Mackie? Is it a Mackie controllor for Sonar? Speakers, What kind are you using? Listen to your favorite Cds through your system and get use to your speakers and your room if you haven't already. I hope this helps. And I'm in Maryland, if you want to hook up(I'm close to D.C.) maybe I could give you a different ear. I'm into Radiohead, Afghan Whigs, Flaming Lips, Built to Spill, Sunny Day Real Estate, U2, I don't know if that's considered progressive Rock, or if you mean bands like Rush but maybe we can help each other. D.I.Y.s need to stick together, ya know. PM me if you like. Take care and Good luck, Lincoln Ross Dead Black Jedis[/b][/quote]Hey Jedi, I'm using Mackie HR824s. I love these things. So much better than the Alesis Monitors Two's I had before. I'll be mixing in SONAR 3. I appreciate the offer to listen to some of the tunes as I go along. I'm probably an hour and a half away from you down on the Eastern Shore. I'd love to have another set of ears. Maybe I could send you an MP3 and you can tell me what you think. Rush is what I mean by progressive rock. The drummer for the CD has something of a Stewart Copeland feel going. In a perfect world people would listen and say, "that's ME!" rather than "that sounds like _________" That's one goal.

[YourMotherShouldKnow]

[quote]Originally posted by Mr Darling: [b]If that is the first time you attempt mixing you are a brave man. However if you can, try to avoid the two weeks dead line, as a beginer, my best advice to you will be mix a song, live with it on a cd for a couple of days (at least) and go back to change what need changing.. My few first years of mixing, I mixed every track at least 4-5 times until completly satisfied (well the room was not all that as well). Now, when I have the time, I still do at least 2 mixes usually with a week in between. As for reverb : 5 reverbs, seems much to me.the reverb main job is to stick te track together.. if you use too many different ones you sort of go aginst that princepel. And yeah , a normal beginer mistake is to pile to much of it - so unless desired as an effect, simply add as little reverb as possible.. to the point that you almost don't hear it. Good luck man. Danny[/b][/quote]Thanks Danny! This mixing process is starting to become de-mystified. The more I read the more it makes sense. I had a vague sense that the best mixers applied reverb to most every track. My thought now is that I can do anything as long as I have a good REASON for doing it. That's what I have to remember. I'm not too worried about getting it done in 2 weeks. I want to get this project finished because I'm 85% insane right now. But if I have to go another week or two that'll be ok. I think I can get it done in 2 weeks though. Is anyone here using SONAR? I'm not sure how hot to export my final mix. When I export to MP3s it can be really hot before it starts to crackle.

[kylen]

Hi LanceMO, Don't forget about this stuff about setting your room up and LF modes and mid/hi reflections and absorption: http://www.musicplayer.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=015872 I had to strain my ears so much on my last project that I've got my room all ripped apart fixing my acoustics. That really adds to the mixdown/pre-mastering time ! I had some really great refernce material to listen to and pre-master (sweeten, balance eq & dynamics) in to but there were details that I just couldn't hear. Partly because of the Alesis powered M1s I'm sure but partly because I just threw them anywhere in any old room ! Ha Ha big mistake... :) kylen

[halljams]

Kylen, i use powered M1's. They sound great.You have to get the room right though, it makes a massive difference. Make sure, you don't have too many reflections in the highs, when i fixed that in my room i could hear detail i had never heard before.

[kylen]

Thanks Elton - that's good to have your recommendation, I was hoping the M1's could sound better than that ! LanceMo, here's a Cakewalk article about so-called 'mastering' that might help. Hopefully when you're finished mixing you are 90-95% there already. That last 10% will eat you alive though ! http://www.cakewalknet.com/articlesmasteringeng.htm Also for mixing there's some ideas about multiple aux's for reverb/delay sends. I could see having 5 in my mind - close mic reverb, ambient mic reverb, slow delay, medium delay, slap delay, maybe even a delay tied to the tempo in some manner. See how it gets - experimenting can eat time like you're thinking ! kylen

[DirtyRubberDuck]

Since you asked: I would put my time/effort into mixing more than mastering. By the time a tune gets mastered, it should really be DONE. If you are applying massive EQ, limiting, etc during mastering, you probably didn't do a good enough job mixing. I have a program called T-racks that does an excellent job mastering if you want to do it yourself. Although it often helps to have a different set of ears. Speaking of that, I think it is very difficult for the person who writes/performs the songs to do the best job mixing. I usually give mine a preliminary mix, and then send them out to someone else for a final mix. As the writer/performer, you are too entrenched in the songs to give them a objective listen. Something that can help you mix your songs is using a refernce CD, professionally done, by someone who's sound you like. Tom Petty's Damn the Torpedos is used often, but it can be anybody who you think your songs are similar to. After mixing your song, a/b them with the reference CD to get an idea where your mix could use some tweaking. The most important factor in mixing to me is EQ. Don't be afraid to cut (never boost) some serious frequencies in order to separate one track from another. This avoids a problem that plagues many mixing newbies where all the tracks kinda mush together. Every track should have it's own sonic space. The equipment you use is nearly unimportant. Nice near-field monitors are cool, but be sure to listen to the final mix on a number of different stereos, since that is how your song will be listened to 99% of the time. Hope this helps - be sure to post a song or two in the "Is my music any good" thread so we can hear the results! DRD

[YourMotherShouldKnow]

Kylen and Duck, You guys are great. Mixdown begins tomorrow. The reference CD idea is brilliant. I think I'm all ready to go.

[YourMotherShouldKnow]

It's Molsen Golden time... Day 1: Things started at a snail's pace this morning. I didn't get my act together for mixing until 2 o'clock. I worked on a song called "Blue is the Color." I think of the song as a cross between an Eric Johnson song and a John Lennon working-class hero/God song. The song is pretty simple, less than 3 minutes long. I used Sting's "Lazerus Heart" and Rush's "Different Strings" as my reference CD for the bass and drum sound. I found a snare frequency I liked at 2487 Khz and spiked it up 6 db or so. I recorded the drums for this one at a lower level than I would have liked. I'm surprised at how nice they sound. They really stand out. I have an electric guitar track going along with an acoustic guitar something like Zep's "The Rain Song." I started using that as a reference but even though it's one of my favorites, that sound wasn't working for me. I used the acoustic guitar from Pink Floyd's "Mother" and got a terrific high endy sound on the acoustic. It's tucked nicely in the track. I just kinda winged it for the electric and I'm still not sold on how that's working. I found myself boosting EQ more than I expected. I really tried to get the sounds by cutting but it just wasn't happening. I was boosting a lot of stuff from 2k up to 16k. I cut a lot of mids. I hate mids. I used a couple delays on the AUX BUS. One is a way-in-the-background thump for the drums. You can feel it more than hear it. And then I tried to make they vocal bigger with a 17 millisecond delay or something thereabouts. And I finished it off with a touch of Lexicon Reverb for the vocal. I'm not totally finished with the song but I think I had a good day with it. I'm very happy with the vocal. I'll automate that tomorrow and tweak whatever else needs tweaking and the case will be closed on Blue is the Color. Tomorrow is for this acoustic instumental that should be pretty quick to mix and a Beatle-y kind of song.

[kylen]

Hey, you're quick ! :) Keep up the good work - looks like you have a good pace going and aren't 'stressing' out over too many details ! Keep objective and if it still sounds good in a couple of days "Print It !". Keep us posted - very interesting stuff ! kylen

[where02190]

[quote]Originally posted by LanceMo: [QBI found myself boosting EQ more than I expected. I really tried to get the sounds by cutting but it just wasn't happening. I was boosting a lot of stuff from 2k up to 16k.[/QB][/quote]Boosting these frequencies more than a db or two will siginicantly raise your noise floor, and the overall s/n ratio. Listen on mulitple sets of references, not just one set of speakers. Listen from anotehr room, but most important listen at consistant levels, at reasonable volumes. If you haven't already, go to your local radio shack and get a $30 analog spl meter, set it to 80db a weighted slow mode, and keep your levels within that metering range. I typically listen at between 75-80dbA weighted, and find that kkeping that meter in front of me is a helpful reminder not to let the volume creep up. the hearing curve changes draumatically when you go up in volume. Whiel it is also good to do quick checks at higher volumes, prolonged exposure severly shortens your ability to work for an extended period of time. Also, listen at barely audioble vaolumes...can yous till clearly hear everything? Take alot of breaks. I never work on a mix for more than 2 hours without a break. I have a little kitchen timer I use for a reminder. Set if to go off in 2 hours, when it does, get up and get away for a few minutes, go ouside, take a quick walk, have a bite to eat, but get out of the room. Be careful about compressing the mix buss, I prefer to leave that for the mastering engineer. Do a couple different mixes. I typically do a +/-2db vocal mixes, along with a +/-2db solo mixes, and a instruments only and vocal only mix. this leaves many options when mastering. Good luck. Post something when you've got a mix you like.

[Mr Darling]

Totaly agreed with everything where said... nothing wrong with a little bossting , but if you find you boost too much (and 6db is too much in my book) the problems is somewhere else.. check wich other sound stand in your way and cut that one out instead... also, remember that pan pots have more then one setting - it actually took me awhile to figure, but setting things slightly off center made loads of space a,d widened the all thing. Good luck

[KenElevenShadows]

Recording - especially in the home or semi-pro universe - requires declaring war on low mids.

[Loopy C]

Just be careful not to throw out the baby with the bath water. The "meat" of many instruments lives around these "lo mids". Beware the dreaded "V" equalizer shape/sound. The trick is to hand pick what occupies this important range and adjust your supporting instruments accordingly. And in regards to mastering, if unsure error on the side of too much low end as opposed to too little. Too much is easy to fix.

[BP3]

Lance, in addition to Jedi, I also live in Maryland if I can be of help. Where on the Eastern Shore are you? If you're an hour and a hlf from Jedi, I'm betting around Easton. BTW - did you see Rick Wakeman at the Avalon Theater last Friday?

[BP3]

Lance, feel free to email if you like.

[KenElevenShadows]

[quote]Originally posted by Loopy C: [b]Just be careful not to throw out the baby with the bath water. The "meat" of many instruments lives around these "lo mids". Beware the dreaded "V" equalizer shape/sound. The trick is to hand pick what occupies this important range and adjust your supporting instruments accordingly. And in regards to mastering, if unsure error on the side of too much low end as opposed to too little. Too much is easy to fix.[/b][/quote]Yeah, that's all quite true. The thing about home recording is that so much stuff overlaps in that region that it turns into this Chaotic Symphony of the Low Mids. You can cut quite a bit of instruments, but as you say, leave something to occupy that region. And yes, if you are not too surgical but instead indiscriminately blast away, you can take away the body and/or warmth. For mastering, yes, too much bottom end is better than not enough. If it ain't there in the first place, it's rather difficult to add it.

[YourMotherShouldKnow]

My right ear hurts... Continuing thanks to all you guys for your advice on this thing. I expected to work on 2 songs today but I never made it to the 2nd song. Worked on a song called "The Assembly of the Wondrous Head" for let's see...about 7-8 hours today. The song isn't as strange as the title. It's a little strange though. Ringo Starr drumbeat, crisp clean guitar strikes with long reverbs, a walking bass line. 4 or 5 lead guitar phrases that came out great. A melodic chorus with lots of vocals goin on. It sounds like an actual chorus sometimes. I have a "finished" version that I could probably live with if I had to but I can tell on listening back to it on a boom box that some things need tweaking. - The drums are thumping too much on the boom box. - The clean, crisp guitars are way too loud. Like 3 db too loud I'd say. - The 2nd verse is mainly drums, bass and the vocal. And the vocal just isn's sitting right. I need to fix that. Not sure what to try though. The song has a ton of effects goin' and this part might be best dry. Or not. Maybe a PHASER! :idea: Heh heh. After listening on the boombox, I adjusted my 824s. I stuck the bass switch to the 37kzh position from the 47. The 37 says "normal" on it but in the book it says 47 will be best for most apps. I also added 2db on the high freq. switch. I'm hoping that'll bring the guitars in a better balance. If anyone wants to hear an MP3 of what I did today I'll be happy to email it. I'm gonna email it to my bro so it;s no trouble. Email me. _________ Blue is the Color is sounding pretty good on the boom box. The mids are lacking. I think I did what Loopy C said not to do. I did a lot of V work on the EQ. I'll listen back to it when I'm fresh and see if I can fill in some of those spots. It's mainly the electric guitar on that one that's the trouble. It's brittle sounding. The acoustic instrumental was easy to mix. I can live with that one. That came out pretty warm. So 1 song is done, 1 is in need of slight tweaking, and 1 is in need or more than a little tweaking. Gonna do a different song tomorrow though. This one roughed me up enough for one day.

[YourMotherShouldKnow]

Testing, testing... Email should be on here somewhere.

[where02190]

Be aware there is a pretty obvious (to my elay between the passive and active woofers on those 824's. Initially they sound like they have this massive bottom, but if you listen in detail, there is a very distinctive discrepancy between the two woofers that I personally find impossible to mix accurately on. Do you have a second set of reference near or midfields you A/B to? This is really crutial. I personally can't live without a pair of NS-10's, but that doesn't eman they are not for you, however there's been more mixed on them than all other monitors combined practically. Anyway, definitely have a quick A/B system that allows you to stay in the sweet spot and quickly switch between two sets of monitors that you trust. Try a bit more compression on the drums, especially the kick, with a faster attack mostly. If the guitars are out in front too much try easing off on the comrpession if you're using any. Vocal, dump the effects, get it to sit right, then if it needs some spooge ad it on.