Rave culture--"Techno-shamanism"

[Veracohr]

[quote]Originally posted by marino: [b]Not all-pervading? Well, while I enjoy listening to the interesting textures of techno, I fail to remember one techno/dance/trance/drum'n'bass tune with any little rallentando on a break, or any nuance of tempo except maybe for some speeding up at the end.[/b][/quote]Sorry, I meant that the desire to hear a perfect beat is not all-pervading among the listeners, not the artists. [quote][b]I take exception on this too, and not once but twice. :) 1) I believe there's a very big difference between a group of musicians playing together, trying to achieve a regular rhythm in empathy with each other and their listeners, and a group of people in a club being bombed at very high volume by a rhythm quantized at the computer. 2) One aspect of African shamanic drumming is healing. This is done, broadly speaking, by synchronizing the rhythm of the drum with the heartbeat of the ill person, then gradually 'driving' it to its 'normal' pace. If this doesn't require great familiarity with constant changes of tempo, I don't know what does. Try listening to some African music - I know I'm generalizing here, but just to be clear, NOT the French productions with an African voice over a pop beat - I mean, real, traditional African music, especially from Mali, Ivory Coast, Senegal. You will find that while it has obviously a strong rhythmic character, it's never metronomic. And this has nothing to do with not being able to play in time; in fact, it has to do with a *superior* sense of time and interaction among players. By the same coin, classical musicians never play metronomically, even 'dance' music - try quantizing a Strauss waltz or a menuet, for example, (not to speak of the African stuff) and you have the corniest music you can imagine! This is 'elasticity', my friend - simply the way music was done for centuries, that is, before computers. Even early rock'n roll has some. You could argue that techno and related styles are the music for the industrial era; my answer would be, OK, but where is freedom of choice? Everything on the charts is looped and quantized to death. The general public ONLY gets quantized music. This is all they know, and when they listen to something else, it sounds weird in some way. I know I'm going off a tangent here, but I feel it's an important artistic and cultural issue.[/b][/quote]You have good points there. So what you don't like isn't music with a steady beat, it's quantized music, right? I understand that. But speaking as someone who makes quantized music, I can say that it's too easy [i]not[/i] to do. Some dance/techno artists, like myself, are poor in the rhythm department. So it's much easier to program a quantized beat and move on to the other instruments. Also, since most electronic artists are one-person "groups", the person doesn't have the luxury of being able to play, for instance, just the drums while someone else does the rest. But on another level, sometimes we just want to hear that metronomic beat. I understand that some people can't reconcile that, it's just a "we have to agree to disagree" situation. I can say that, as a listener, a perfect beat is just as wonderful in it's own way, in it's own place, as an elastic beat. And I'm not one of those techno-only people that disdain acoustic music (they bug me!) I'm not as familiar with African shamanic drumming as Central/South American shamanic drumming. The drumming from these regions tends to be just one drum beating a steady, moderately fast beat. This is the kind I had in mind when I posted. This kind of drumming is excellent for inducing trance quickly and effectively. [quote][b] Ever wondered why drugs play such a role in the rave culture? Because they augment the ecstatic feeling the steady beat tries to elicit. Look at the most common drugs at raves: MDMA and methamphetamine. Both give feelings of euphoria, which, to put it simply, is a portion of shamanic ecstasy. [/b] Thanks for your perspective, but I feel it's a bit too simple an explanation. Young people in all eras have always had a tendency to take drugs, explore the limits of the mind, and find alternative realities. While raves do tend to have a ritual-like atmosphere, techno is just the kind of music being fed to youngsters in this particular era - the same function carried out by Pink Floyd, Grateful Dead, new wave, Little Richard, Cotton Club bands, Viennese waltz... just to remain in the Western world.[/quote]I agree. It [i]was[/i] a simple explanation, and of course a partial one, but in my mind, a valid one. [quote][b]I just would like to see the common listener made aware that other levels of music do exist.[/b][/quote]Agreed. I just wanted to offer a little defense for the dance scene, and let it be known that we (at least not all of us) don't necessarily enjoy the rigidity of the music [i]in place of[/i] more mutable music, just in addition to it. :)

[DJDM]

[quote] Young people in all eras have always had a tendency to take drugs, explore the limits of the mind, and find alternative realities. [/quote]So? Veracohr? Are you "experimenting" now?

[Anderton]

The point that seems to be missed is that techno/dance music is just another FORM of music. It's SUPPOSED to have a perfect beat, and it exists for those who want it. Granted, I do tempo track variations in my tunes, and I think it improves the tune. But not all choose to do this. This isn't a world where if one new form of music appears, other forms of music are mandated to disappear. I love traditional African music, for the reasons described. If you want to hear elastic music in a pop context, check out Sunny Ade or Mory Kante. If you want to hear techno...listen to techno! It's really quite simple.

[Wewus432]

Can I offer a suggestion. Make a point FIRST and then back it up with other posts, or........something. I'm probably not going to read another thread to explain why your thread is here. Give me and everyone else a break. I tried to read this, and at first read it doesn't make sense, or even have a point. Something about techno, and African beats, and Marino, and fuck if I know what else, and I'm not stupid, just might have a short attention span, but it ain't that short. Did you understand what I just said. goooooood.

[StoneinaPond]

[quote] ....might have a short attention span, but it ain't that short. [/quote]Sounds about right. ;)

[Wewus432]

[quote]Originally posted by StoneinaPond: [b] [quote] ....might have a short attention span, but it ain't that short. [/quote]Sounds about right. ;) [/b][/quote]Did you even read the thread? Did that make sense to you?

[M Peasley]

I take this thread to be about mechanical/quantized beats vs. human produced beats that have "elastic" variation. Quantized, perfect, techno-type beats scratch an itch for me. Sort of a "I want to get lost in the machine" itch. There is something trancey about the relentlessness of the perfect beat. On the other hand, I see the metronomic beat as an extreme, limited type of rythm. In the long run, I'm human, I relate to humans better than to machines, I need/want/understand/communicate much more fully with "elastic" beats. The elastic beats can communicate so much more - take you to an infinite number of places that the mechanized beats can't go. The worst, of course, is replacing human, elastic rythms with a false substitute that REPLACES the human element, so that you gain a narrow addiction to a fake "perfection" and lose your taste for the truly human. That's part of the offense of auto-tune - but we've already beat that subject to death. I agree with Craig. Let the metronomic beats have their own genre. Protect the truly human, but get lost in the machine from time to time. M Peasley

[marino]

Veracohr: Thanks for giving me the chance to post on Craig's forum again - it's been a while! :) I think it's very clear that I'm not against techno or dance music, not at all. In fact, I was a Kraftwerk fan since the '70s, and I write some techno-like music myself occasionally. While Craig and M Peasley summarize my views well, the problem I was pointing out is more of a social and cultural issue. Put simply, when in the course of a generation or so, ALL you have on the charts is music that's quantized to death, the cultural unbalance becomes difficult to manage. A lot of young kids ONLY know quantized music, and when they hear live playing it sounds weird, or even 'wrong'. I've already fought with this problem among my students. I feel that the general public should have more choices. Look, I've always tried to be a 'good' musician - to know and play and understand different styles and genres of music. I say the best thrill I can possibly have from music, comes from good live playing in a group. Let's restrict ourselves to talking about tempo/time; in good group playing you keep the time, but you also *make* your time. It's a natural thing. I've had the pleasure to play in chamber groups, jazz combos, prog bands, 'contemporary' (ha) music groups... It's not easy - I've studied music for all my life, and it's not been a 'luxury', rather a ton of hard work, just out of love for music. Now, how many dance or tachno producers have had similar experiences... A few maybe, but my guess is, not that many. See, for them too, it's a matter of freedom of choice. How can one include rhythmic nuances in his music, when he's never experienced them as a player, or even as a listener? I repeat, I don't feel that those nuances are always necessary - I often like a robotic feel. What I'm worried about is, the corporate labels seem to only be interested in pushing dance-type arrangements, for the obvious reason that they reach the youngsters more immediately. And given the present restriction in the number of labels that have access to big distribution, 95% of the music which gets promoted in the generalistic media is, you guessed it, looped and quantized. End of rant... Hope my English is readable :)

[Veracohr]

[quote]Originally posted by marino: [b]What I'm worried about is, the corporate labels seem to only be interested in pushing dance-type arrangements, for the obvious reason that they reach the youngsters more immediately. And given the present restriction in the number of labels that have access to big distribution, 95% of the music which gets promoted in the generalistic media is, you guessed it, looped and quantized.[/b][/quote]You are at least somewhat right here, but I don't know how much. The labels push non-quantized music as well, but most of that is just as crappy as the quantized stuff they push. I don't know, though, because I don't pay attention to big label music anymore. As for the rest of your post, I agree. I think Craig stated my views better than I could. The kids know there's other music out there that doesn't sound quantized. If they wanted to seek it out, they would. I don't think their tastes are completely at the mercy of the labels' advertising departments. [b]Wewus:[/b] sorry you didn't get the post. I understand it looks a bit chaotic up there, but you shouldn't have to go read the other thread to understand this one. I tried to make it as self-sufficient as possible. [b]DJDM:[/b] Of course not! :eek: I don't "experiment". But I did spend a short while in the Seattle rave "scene" (as much as it is around here), and formulated some opinions on what I knew of the rave phenomenon (which, I admit, is nothing compared to those who saw the rave culture start, but it's all I've got to go on!)

[boosh]

Only thing you should have done is just ask the Dutch Techno Shaman ;) I know him,.. he is ME ;)

[DRi]

i laugh at the "shaman" references i grew up amid the "rave" scene, i dj'd in it and i became a producer in it. got successful in it. watched it broaden its appeal, become "clubbing" culture as opposed to "rave" culture, watched the magazines spring up, the fashions and then tv adverts started playing watered down dnb in the background theres no "shamanism"... just a vibrant market place. now here i am, in a very cushy creative job, still quite young, having worked in every aspect of dance music culture as a business, and still seeing throw-backs to the early 90's in the form of hilarious "shaman" thread titles. get with it, its business. and.... more importantly, its damn good fun! breakbeats are my soul food!

[realtrance]

So, what's the plural of shaman? Anyone? rt

[KenElevenShadows]

[quote]Originally posted by realtrance: [b]So, what's the plural of shaman? Anyone? rt[/b][/quote]Shamanae? Shamen? :D Innit like "fish"?

[M Peasley]

Shammies M Peasley

[Jotown]

[quote]Originally posted by Ken/Eleven Shadows: [b] [quote]Originally posted by realtrance: [b]So, what's the plural of shaman? Anyone? rt[/b][/quote]Shamanae? Shamen? :D Innit like "fish"?[/b][/quote][b]Shamen![/b] Good guess; and you are the winner! :D

[realtrance]

ar ar ar ar ar.... rt

[Monkey Mouse]

I might be missing th point, but I have a few ideas to shoot out of my brain.... I DJ and produce music (ok, the music isn't at all good, but its getting better) that is DJ oriented. The reason why a lot of people think most DJs sucks is becuase they play shit music - its very simple. I personally only buy what sounds good that I like - sometimes I buy 8 records, sometimes 1, but they are all great tunes. But most specific-genere oriented DJs buy everything in their range and play it, no matter how good (or bad) it is. This is why you hear a lot of crap that makes you think they suck - actually they do. Personally, I think there is a lot of good DJ (and producer) talent out there, but it is untapped. Everyone wants to be a star and have big paychecks and hot women, that is what bad music can do for you.... lol I have a lot of respect for the guy who might never be so popular, but churns out good music for DJs, not to mention the few DJs that are really good.

[realtrance]

Ok now this suddenly gives me pause in my usual open-mindedness: the difference between a "good" DJ and a "bad" DJ is what records they buy? So the main skill in being a DJ is shopping for records? Hmmmmm..... comparing that in my mind with the 15 years of classical music education I needed in order to master (to a certain extent, at least) Beethoven's Hammerklavier piano sonata. Hmmmm..... perhaps Dave Horne is right. rt

[DRi]

[quote]Originally posted by realtrance: [b]Ok now this suddenly gives me pause in my usual open-mindedness: the difference between a "good" DJ and a "bad" DJ is what records they buy? So the main skill in being a DJ is shopping for records? Hmmmmm..... comparing that in my mind with the 15 years of classical music education I needed in order to master (to a certain extent, at least) Beethoven's Hammerklavier piano sonata. Hmmmm..... perhaps Dave Horne is right. rt[/b][/quote]nah most djs play the same shit. dj'ing is an art most often abused. everyone wants their piece of the pie... just like everyone wanted to play like hendrix check out a Dj Shadow gig sometime and be amazed...

[Jedi]

[quote]Originally posted by DsAmp check out a Dj Shadow gig sometime and be amazed... [/quote]Dj Shadow's Introducing, Preemptive Strike, and UnKle are life changing experiences. I think the guy is incredible. Lincoln Ross Dead Black Jedis

[Jotown]

[quote]Originally posted by DSamp: [b]i laugh at the "shaman" references theres no "shamanism"... just a vibrant market place. get with it, its business. and.... more importantly, its damn good fun! breakbeats are my soul food![/b][/quote]How true. To me the phrase "Techno Shamanism" is an oxymoron. There is no Shamanism in techno; with or with out the ecstasy.

[SoundMeister]

[quote]Originally posted by Jotown: [b] To me the phrase "Techno Shamanism" is an oxymoron. There is no Shamanism in techno; with or with out the ecstasy.[/b][/quote]I agree. I have seen the term shamanic applied to rave culture, but I don't see much of an organic shamanic quality in techno music. I like techno, but I don't see what 4 on the floor has to do with ritualistic performances or religious drama. That aside, one thing that differentiates the more organic playing you might expect in tribal culture is that it is done in real time and has dynamics. No so for the perfectly quantized, endlessly looping 4 on the floor groove. Further, it is very probably a reductionism to suggest that a monotonous beat is shamanic. Without religious mindset, beating a drum is not going to give anyone a religious experience. Actually, I do not think of techno as trance inducing because the sounds that define the genre tend to be fairly aggressive and extreme. I realize this is a generalization, but I think it has some merit. Finally, I'm not sure Rave culture began with drugs or that it is primarily about drugs. I believe it was a musical byproduct of the DJ culture of house music in Detroit and Chicago that started in 1985. It sure has some tribal/social aspects (young folks trying each other in a public environment), but the religious aspect is less obvious. ~Peter Schouten Pyramid Sound Productions

[felix.]

I don't think it's fair to assume that all techno music is quantized to the hilt. A bunch of the best guys making electronic music are pretty tweaky about their beats, and I'd bet plenty of them use tempo variation, loop variation, and the like to bring their tracks to life. That said, different people go for different grooves - I say if you want to dance to machines, more power to you! It's clear that many people are physically and emotionally moved by dance music - nothing wrong with that IMO.

[KenElevenShadows]

I am definitely not an expert on DJing, but I think part of the skill is not just picking out the records, but the way in which they are seamlessly put together, with matched beats and other considerations, and how a good one can get a really great vibe going and that kind of thing.

[Loopy C]

Buy, or rent the movie "Skratch" and decide for yourself what is going on.

[schmee]

define DJ. most of the DJs i've seen performing real shit are amazing performance artists, and most are musicians imho, as much as the old blues folks were anyway. [quote]"I don't do chords." - [b]BB King[/b][/quote]however, most of the DJs i've actually known are surburban guys with vans who MC parties at night, and who keep their day job. the rave DJ is that farthest thing from musicianship i can think of - but compelling art nonetheless. which is more than i can say for most of top 40. it's all relative. as for the conversation on trance: the reality that time is something that has a physical effect on us, in that it is an entire dimension itself, is not something to argue about, imho. but something which exploits the nuances of time, is not in and of itself something it is necessarily wholly musical. a washing machine on full cycle will produce the same effect. music is a matter of malice and creativity. a washing machine can be very creative. but the level of malice involved in the process is nil, other than we know it's going to make a pattern of random racket based on a cyclical rotation of the basket. if we adjust just the time in which the washing machine basket turns a complete cycle by speeding up the motor, so that we have created a determined tempo - we automatically create a levelof malice that now elevates the process to something somewhat musical. but a lot of the time, "DJs" haven't even done that. i am trying to help get a local hip hop duo produced and was surprised to find out that the guy "programming" the drum machine didn't know what tempo was. the musician of the group however - the DJ - spent about 8 years playing harmonica over a blues band 4 nights a week from age 14. he takes what he learned in blues feel to the hip hop genre and does a very good job of it - he has a great ear and can improv very well. amazing performer too, ton of prescence and he gets crowds going. just don't put a guitar in his hands. it's all relative. :wave: