Saint Johnny B Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 The question is simple. Voting "Yes" means you agree the economy has tanked, Bush and Cheney lied, and that we can do far better. Voting "No" means you believe that Bush is a great, sane, intelligent, and honest leader. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super 8 Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 Don't we already have a thread started about this? :rolleyes: Super 8 Hear my stuff here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Johnny B Posted August 31, 2003 Author Share Posted August 31, 2003 We have an argument thread going, I originally just wanted a vote, so here it is. Even the right-wing get to vote in this poll, because that's the kind of America I stand for. Thanks in advance to all those who do vote. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henryrobinett Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 I think Bush and Cheney are very, very dangerous men. All the best, Henry Robinett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wow Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 ALL politicians are dangerous. :idea: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henryrobinett Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 Well that's a generality. I think all politicians have the potential to be dangerous. There's a lot of blood on Bush's hands and he seems to willing and anxious to spill a lot more. He hasn't shown me any evidence of being a compassionate conservative. I actually despise the man. I don't think he's very bright, which makes him more dangerous in my eyes. He seems unwilling to see eye to eye with anyone other than his own opinions/agenda. His agenda seems to stop after and go no deeper than kicking ass. I don't feel comfortable knowing my familes lives are one way or another in his hands. Frankly I think the man's an idiot. I'm not willing to get drawn in a debate about all of this though. I get too upset about it. Without willingness to communicate with our enemies conflicts will never cease. Without the willingness to see the world from an enemies perspective one will never understand. Without understanding wars continue. Bombs won't stop anything. They merely exacerbate and prolong the issues. They make the dragons bigger. All the best, Henry Robinett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super 8 Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 Henry, I've always respected your opinion. Do you really think this is a war over oil? I think you make some strong points about Bush's diplomacy skills -or the lack thereof. Yes, he does seem very forceful in pursuing his agenda. That can be a very good thing, in that he is someone who can get things through all of the red tape and beaurocracy. But it can also be a very bad thing, in that he might be so focused on what he's aiming for that he's not seeing whether or not he should be doing it. Super 8 Hear my stuff here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wow Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 I dont sugar coat anything, so here goes: WE(US) are in WW3. We defeated Fascism , Communism(except China), and we are now currently in a war on terrorism We can defeat Hilter , we can outspend Russia until Communism falls(would of happened without Reagan, he just sped it up). Terrorism is a WHOLE different lot of beans. If Russia fucked with us, they knew it was their end. Hitler was just a BITCH and we lost ALOT of good people getting rid of that guy. Our forces(US) have been undergoing MAJOR transformation in the last 2 years, Mass armies's is no longer the way battles are fought. INFORMATION is the key to world peace. The US can blow any State off the map at any time, Iraq could be a BIG black hole if GWB had a short fuse. This war is FAR from over, AND there will ba ALOT of "Civil Wars" in the future of the middle east. The US had a "Civil War" and it changed our country for the better in the long run. Brothers killing brothers. Lets not even start on what we did to the Indians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GZsound Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 I have some additional bad news for those of you who are leaning slightly left.. The economy is recovering. Growth is up in nearly all sectors. The GDP has exceeded projections. The tax cuts are starting to have an effect. The news is reporting today the connection between Al Qaeda and Iraq. Our armed forces are fighting terrorists in the desert of the middle east. Our innocent civilians are not trying to survive terrorist attacks on American streets and in American cities. There have been no attacks on American soil in two years. Those of you who wish we would fail in this effort against terrorism, those who wish our economy would get worse so your political party can win an election, those of you who cannot figure out that in Vietnam, 500 soldiers a week died. We have defeated the sixth largest military force in the world, we have thrown out a brutal regime, we have begun the long process of actually doing something about terrorism that no administration in the history of America has attempted and we will win. I feel so sorry for those of you who cannot feel anything but hate. Who cannot hope for success for your fellow citizens, who hope for defeat, failure and an economic disaster just to forward your political agenda. Thankfully, our soldiers are willing to put their lives on the line so you have the right to be such complete anti American jerks. Mark G. "A man may fail many times, but he isn't a failure until he begins to blame others" -- John Burroughs "I consider ethics, as well as religion, as supplements to law in the government of man." -- Thomas Jefferson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deathtoallwhoopposeme Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by GZsound: [b]I have some additional bad news for those of you who are leaning slightly left.. The economy is recovering. Growth is up in nearly all sectors. The GDP has exceeded projections. The tax cuts are starting to have an effect. The news is reporting today the connection between Al Qaeda and Iraq. Our armed forces are fighting terrorists in the desert of the middle east. Our innocent civilians are not trying to survive terrorist attacks on American streets and in American cities. There have been no attacks on American soil in two years. Those of you who wish we would fail in this effort against terrorism, those who wish our economy would get worse so your political party can win an election, those of you who cannot figure out that in Vietnam, 500 soldiers a week died. We have defeated the sixth largest military force in the world, we have thrown out a brutal regime, we have begun the long process of actually doing something about terrorism that no administration in the history of America has attempted and we will win. I feel so sorry for those of you who cannot feel anything but hate. Who cannot hope for success for your fellow citizens, who hope for defeat, failure and an economic disaster just to forward your political agenda. Thankfully, our soldiers are willing to put their lives on the line so you have the right to be such complete anti American jerks.[/b][/quote]LOLOL...This is just funny man....I mean it's really really Hilarious!!! Aniti-American?? Whos AntiAmerican?..I'll tell you..Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Ashcroft...I mean the truth is out there to what these guys are all about, how they are fucking the american people, and are only blatently out for themselves and their rich corporate friends. I mean it's all there and If you would like me to post links to all the exposed lies, explanations to what the effects of thier policies are on the economy that even completely BLIND Sheeple can understand, not to mention the neocon's underlying ideology which is so blatently contrary to the constitution and what the REAL AMERICAN stands for I can do it but ya know what...There are certain people who will just never get it...You want to believe what you want to believe and even when you are on the Titanic and it's fucking sinking you STILL refuse to acknowlege it!!!!!! I can't help people like that nor do I feel sorry for them.....And let me tell you something...Our soliders are downright fucking sick of putting their lives on the line to secure Cheney and his Petro boys Iraqi Iol Fields Plunder....Maybe you need to do a search on the web to find all the stories about serious moral problems in the Military due to shitty long deployments, screwed benefits and pay, among other things....there are many out there...The military is loosing many many of thier mid level experienced NCO's and Officers due to this shit. The American Legion and the NCOA are both ADAMENTLY AGAINST the BUSH ADMINISTRATIONS policies toward the Military and are fighting them on serveral issues as we speak. The Will not be endorsing them in the next election either. BUSH is no friend of the Military. He's obviously NO friend of the working American...Lets see, lets reclassify a 7 dollar an hour Burger flipper into "Management" so they no longer qualify for overtime pay!!!!!!!!....Oh man, get a grip...I know that there are many many brainwashed IDIOTS out there and people like yourself who just know what you know and do not want to face the facts but not to mention this is the most HATED and CORRUPT administration this country has ever produced, I still hold hope that enough Intelligent people who understand whats going on come out and vote these motherfuckers out of office before they destroy even more of what was once the American Dream...I personally think the Neocons have pissed enough people off this time that the Miniscule amount more that's needed to get out to the polls will be there...And vote them OUT!!!!!! Bush's Days are Numbered...There is more underhanded evil shit going on then there ever has been before in any administration...Even Nixon's!! I only hope you can wake up too see it brother...... Sean Michael Mormelo www.seanmmormelo.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignatius Riley Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 Hunter S. Thompson tells it like it is: [url=http://espn.go.com/page2/s/thompson/030722.html]ESPN page 2[/url] Track or treat? http://www.garbage-house.com/pictures/freaks-images/eck-s-animated.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deathtoallwhoopposeme Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Ignatius Riley: [b]Hunter S. Thompson tells it like it is: [url=http://espn.go.com/page2/s/thompson/030722.html]ESPN page 2[/url] [/b][/quote]OH MAN!!!!!!! Gotta love Hunter!!~! Sean Michael Mormelo www.seanmmormelo.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcohol Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 GZ, If the economy is improving that's good news to me and for me. Don't ever try to speak for a leftest again, because you don't understand what it means to be other than a right wing stooge. If our involvement in Iraq turns out to be correct and I was wrong that's good news. I always hoped that I was wrong about Iraq. Still do. However the evidence and the way things are playing out in Iraq continue to confirm my perspective. Remember the model airplane that the administration claimed was a WMD? I'm tired of pathetic rationalizations like that and yours too. GZ you're quickness to impugn the patriotism and loyalty of those who disagree with you shows the shallowness of your understanding of the issues and displays a character that is contrary to the true spirit of America. You can't rightfully claim to be a partriot because you're so intolerant of dissent. "The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in a period of moral crisis maintain their neutrality." [Dante Alighieri] (1265-1321) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henryrobinett Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Super 8: [b]Henry, I've always respected your opinion. Do you really think this is a war over oil? [/b][/quote]Yeah. Thanks Super 8. I think this war is only partially over oil. I think you'd have to be dim and have blinders on not to be able to see that. Bush/Cheney, the oil-energy axis. Of course it's not a BAD thing they have interests in energy. It's just a bad thing what extremes they seem to be willing to go over it. I think the war is also over ego. Americans are the most jingoistic, self-rightegous, "we're the only ones", type of folks the world may have ever seen. Bush/Cheney seem to epitomize this point of view. The world revolves around America and Americans and the only lives that count are American. No wonder the world hates us. We refuse to see them as having any value. Who's "them"? Anyone who disagrees with us (French, German, etc,). And may God help you if your skin isn't white. I think the war is over our alignment with Isreal and the control we have exerted in Saudi Arabia militarily. I think there's a perception of us being bullies. We think might makes right. I think our covert operations to install the Shah and oust the elected government in Iran in 1948 has come back to haunt us. It always does and it always will when these type of despicable "covert actions" occur. The nieghboring nations haven't forgotten and resent us for it. This was, by the way, overtly over oil. It was to support the British [b][i]RIGHTS[/b][/i] to [i]their[/i] (Iran's) oil fields. We, of course, took a cut off the top of the profits. Unless we get to the sources of the conflict the terrorism will continue. People are people. People are not countries. I don't see one single American life as any more valuable than any single Iraqi, Syrian, Palistinian life. This is where, in my opinion, we fall down as a nation. We think we're the ones. We really think God is on our side. Now we may have forgotten the genesis, the origin of this concept; this manifest destiny bullshit. It may be so ingrained in us as a people we don't remember the justifications we used to enslave, to kill Indians and lie continually, over and over, again and again in quest for [b][i]their LAND[/b][/i] for christ sakes!!!! What we did to the Filipinos in the Phillipines around the turn of the last century. The press called them niggers. We didn't even know who they [b][i]WERE[/b][/i]. How we picked a fight with Mexico just so we could take their land. Our history is not pretty. But we don't see it. We can't see it. We're Americans. It's our right. So energy is the new land. There's no more land, as there appeared to be in Jefferson's America when he sent Merriweather Lewis out to discover the north-west passage. But we're still pugnacious with god on our side. All the best, Henry Robinett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deathtoallwhoopposeme Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 all valid points Henry but Vastly oversimplified...Don't forget the entire reason we went to war according to the administration has yet to be proven and many think is an out and out lie.....You need to understand the principles and mindset of these people. Here is the reason we went to war- http://www.newamericancentury.org/ Need to research the origins of this idiology and delve deeper then the site to really understand what they are about.... Sean Michael Mormelo www.seanmmormelo.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henryrobinett Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Sventvkg: [b]all valid points Henry but Vastly oversimplified...Don't forget the entire reason we went to war according to the administration has yet to be proven and many think is an out and out lie.....You need to understand the principles and mindset of these people. Here is the reason we went to war- http://www.newamericancentury.org/ Need to research the origins of this idiology and delve deeper then the site to really understand what they are about....[/b][/quote]Well I wasn't going to go into VAST detail in a few paragraghs. I won't preetend to know great detail either. Salient points and the essence of the problems perhaps. WMD? What a joke. But this was just a justification. I still think the real reasons are oil, power and jingosim. Thanks for the link! Looks quite interesting. All the best, Henry Robinett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GZsound Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 [b]Originally posted by alcohol: GZ, If the economy is improving that's good news to me and for me. Don't ever try to speak for a leftest again, because you don't understand what it means to be other than a right wing stooge.[/b] The question is "if". When all reports are that the economy is improving, and I mean ALL reports, it would be nice to have the babble stop. It doesn't. The radical left still claims the economy is getting worse. Even you, who appear to have some small ability to reason, make the statement above: "if the economy is improving". Then you call me a right wing stooge. I do not pretend to speak for the left. I freely admit I do not understand the intolerance, hate and vitriol exhibited by the extreme left. I also don't understand the lockstep mentality of the extreme right. {b}If our involvement in Iraq turns out to be correct and I was wrong that's good news. I always hoped that I was wrong about Iraq. Still do. However the evidence and the way things are playing out in Iraq continue to confirm my perspective. Remember the model airplane that the administration claimed was a WMD? I'm tired of pathetic rationalizations like that and yours too.[/b] Alchohol, to constantly find the nit to pick, to refuse to see any positive in our current situation simply because of political partisan beliefs is not very genuine. I would characterize you and your ilk as the ones with the pathetic rationalizations. You build the perfect box for your anti administration ideology and there is no escape. You can rationalize any outrageous statement you care to make. Bush is a killer, Bush is a Liar, Bush is etc., etc. and you can find some example that proves your point. Well, I find that attitude disturbing. I find the hate and vitriol you and your ilk freely disperse to be disturbing. I simply refuse to believe your mantra that conservatives are bad simply because they are conservatives and liberals are good just because they are liberals. The administration is bad because it is a Republican administration and all the world would be better if the administration was only Democratic. That is simply stupid and I'm really sorry you don't see how stupid it, and you, really sound. [b]GZ you're quickness to impugn the patriotism and loyalty of those who disagree with you shows the shallowness of your understanding of the issues and displays a character that is contrary to the true spirit of America. You can't rightfully claim to be a partriot because you're so intolerant of dissent.[/b] I get so tired of this premise. The true patriot is the one who protests..right. There is a huge difference between rational dissent and valid argument and the hate filled crap put out by some on this list. Notice I said "some". I appreciate any and all cogent opinions. I have many political discussions with very liberal friends. The difference is they are college educated, most are teachers, professors and textbook authors and have a strong ability to avoid inflamatory rhetoric. They don't make silly statements like "he lied", because they know that is an empty statement. There is proof available that every politician ever elected in history has made misstatements, which in liberalspeak means they have lied. And if my quickness to question the ethics, moral consistency and patriotism of your liberal friends bothers you...good. You and your friends seemingly endless capacity to make unsubstantiated, outrageous, inflamitory, unpatriotic and un American statements means you certainly can't claim to be a patriot. Your tired old dope smoking hippy attitude will accomplish nothing. Why even make statements like "If" anything gets better? You and I both know you will never accept any good news regarding our country, our defense, our administration or our economy until a democratic administration is in power..then you will accept everything they do carte blanche. Mark G. "A man may fail many times, but he isn't a failure until he begins to blame others" -- John Burroughs "I consider ethics, as well as religion, as supplements to law in the government of man." -- Thomas Jefferson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super 8 Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Sventvkg: [b]I mean the truth is out there to what these guys are all about, how they are fucking the american people, and are only blatently out for themselves and their rich corporate friends. [/b][/quote]Obviously, Sean it's not so cut and dried as you and others seem to think. If it were, then we'd all be in agreement on this. And we're not... Even among a group music musicians -who would largely be considered 'left-wing' by most accounts- there is not complete uniformity in our viewpoint. It's always easy to pass off anyone who takes an opposing view to your own as 'just not getting it' or 'in denial', 'or anti-american'. But this isn't about that. This is about people who DO care about this issue, but do not agree on what the problem or the solution to the problem is. That is certainly frustrating because it seems that what one person sees as the solution to the problem, another person sees as the end of all life on earth. I think we would all be much more tolerant of each other's opinions if this were a discussion about Mac vs PC, or Les Paul vs Strat. In any case, the 'truth' and the 'facts' must not be as apparent as people are saying they are. Because if they were we would all agree. Super 8 Hear my stuff here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 Uh, Mark... What have you seen to convince you that the economy [b]is[/b] improving? I see the economy getting worse all around me. Where I work part time (Best Buy) the corporate offices are constantly readjusting our budget figures because they realize how bad it is. It's not a competition problem, either - Circuit City is on the brink of closing, Sears is suffering, and all the local hifi shops are all closed. People don't have money to waste on entertainment - no disposable income. On top of that, I have several friends that are sweating over their jobs right now, one of which works for an engineering firm that just barely survived one dry spell last year, and is now staring down the barrel of no new contracts for over a month, with one or two left to complete. One more thing, and pardon my attitude. Don't you ever accuse me of being un-American, you sanctimonious fuckhead. A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peake Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Griffinator: One more thing, and pardon my attitude. Don't you ever accuse me of being un-American, you sanctimonious fuckhead.[/quote]Don't forget that they are still suffering from the "you're either with us or with the terrorists" declaration, which implies that alternate opinion, and the right to it, is nearly treason. When my own country, and it's first amendment, are the target of shame attacks, it's time to be very loud. Give me the ANALOG and no one gets HURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcohol Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 GZ wrote: "The question is "if". When all reports are that the economy is improving, and I mean ALL reports, it would be nice to have the babble stop. It doesn't. The radical left still claims the economy is getting worse. Even you, who appear to have some small ability to reason, make the statement above: "if the economy is improving". The labor situation in the United States is not rosy as you suggest. While unemployment has been reduced from 6.4% in June to 6.2% in July the " The civilian labor force decreased by 556,000 in July to 146.5 million." http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm Economists criticize the unemployment rate as an indicator because it doesn't take into consideration workers who are no longer receiving unemployment though they are still jobless. There is widespread opinion among experts that the employment situation is not rosy: "Because of the surge in productivity growth, this has been about the mildest recession since World War II in terms of economic growth, but it's been one of the most severe in terms of job losses," http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2001658082_jobless29.html Although business productivity rose from 2.6% to a healthy 3.1%, I made an if qualification because one good quarter does not predict the future. You don't have to be an expert to understand that productivity growth now does not necessarily make a trend. But, what do the experts say: "Even if better growth develops in the third quarter, it could be the first quarter of 2004 before the labor markets really improve." "The Conference Board also announced a Coincident Index increase of 0.1 percent, and the lagging index decreased 0.5 percent during June. The Board said those figures suggest the flat trend in the leading index over the past year may have ended, but additional months of growth are needed to determine if an upward trend has indeed developed." http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20030721-033726-2707r.htm GZ I suggest you read the above links so you can learn that I was exactly right to say "if." GZ, you wrote: "You and your friends seemingly endless capacity to make unsubstantiated, outrageous, inflamitory, unpatriotic and un American statements means you certainly can't claim to be a patriot" Your assertion that I or many of the people here that make posts, that are opposite your opinion, do not substantiate their arguments is a flat out falsehood. You can characterize our arguments anyway you want, but despite what you believe people here routinely substantiate what they say. Now I've substantiated my argument that making a qualification about the improving economy was appropriate. While leading indicators are positive for July, a reading of the employment report, that I've provided a link to suggests that employment is not necessarily positive when you consider the details and think about it. I've even included links that support that 'opinion.' It's nice that you have educated friends GZ, but mentioning that you have educated friends doesn't lend authority to your arguments, nor is it good criticism of anyone here that disagree with you. Also the charge that Bush lied is not silly. It's serious and it's being taken as serious by many people. There's a whole world of opinion outside of your circle of liberal friends that are taking this charge of lying seriously. The deceit involved in leading us into war with Iraq is pretty well established. The only way a person could be ignorant of this administration's deceit is to ignore the evidence. People here have making and substantiating their arguments routinely. It's really serious when men and women have been led to war and have died, and reasons were based on forged documents and bogus intelligence. They've been many links describing these allegations and if I remember correctly you've admitted to not reading them. So your claim that they have unsubstantied their arguments is false and you've never offered a substantied rebuttal yourself. Bet it took you by surprise when the President had to admit that he was wrong to have the sixteen works in the State of the Union address regarding the forged documents! How many months have we been talking about those documents here until the President admitted that was wrong? "The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in a period of moral crisis maintain their neutrality." [Dante Alighieri] (1265-1321) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GZsound Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 [b]Originally posted by Griffinator: Uh, Mark... What have you seen to convince you that the economy [b]is[/b] improving?[/b] Uh, Grif...read Alchohols post and check his links. It might help in some small way with your confusion. [b]I see the economy getting worse all around me. Where I work part time (Best Buy) the corporate offices are constantly readjusting our budget figures because they realize how bad it is. It's not a competition problem, either - Circuit City is on the brink of closing, Sears is suffering, and all the local hifi shops are all closed. People don't have money to waste on entertainment - no disposable income.[/b] Uh, Grif... With a fairly recent past that included over-inflated economic indicators, dot com companies with huge worth and no assets of any kind, phony accounting, etc. and an economic up cycle that was coming to an end, something had to slow down. As the economy slows, unemployment goes up. People have a tendency to not buy and they pull back spending. You can always tell when home sales are going to slow down by watching home improvement company stocks and profits. When more folks are just fixing up the old homestead instead of selling it, things are slowing down. Since the stock market took a dump, many savings, 401K, retirement stock plans, etc. saw major gains go away. A lot of people are worried about losing their jobs and saving their money. All these things are bad in the short period but good overall. We cannot go on a merry spending party for ever. Bankruptcies were up during the Clinton years and have continued going up at a record pace during this administration. People were deeply in debt with outstanding credit debt at an all time high. These cycles are on a downturn now and that's a good thing for the future. Nearly all economic indicators are showing growth now. Unemployment is still down but should be better. Understand we cannot simply add more government jobs like the last administration did and say "we have created jobs". Those jobs require additional taxes to support and do not help the economy. Now all I have said will be a moot point if our local and state governments get involved. Oregon just passed the largest tax increase in state history and we have record unemployment..8.1 percent. We will not recover in Oregon unless the voters turn down this tax bill. [b]One more thing, and pardon my attitude. Don't you ever accuse me of being un-American, you sanctimonious fuckhead.[/b] I do not remember using your name specifically, however, sounds like I hit a nerve..so, if the shoe fits.... And I do appreciate the profanity..the last refuge of the terminally stupid. I know, words escape you.. well you are just a....poo pee head. so there.. Mark G. "A man may fail many times, but he isn't a failure until he begins to blame others" -- John Burroughs "I consider ethics, as well as religion, as supplements to law in the government of man." -- Thomas Jefferson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boosh Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 [url=http://www.bushcartoon.com/bushisms.html]bushisms[/url] Fan, nu pissar jag taggtråd igen. Jag skulle inte satt på räpan. http://www.bushcollectors.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 I hearby declare myself to be anti-American. If Mark G stands for America, I'll be on the other team :p "That's what the internet is for. Slandering others anonymously." - Banky Edwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franknputer Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 http://votetoimpeach.org/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boosh Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 [img]http://www.15times.com/gallery/0017/111tour/69frodo.jpg[/img] Fan, nu pissar jag taggtråd igen. Jag skulle inte satt på räpan. http://www.bushcollectors.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by GZsound: [b]Uh, Grif...read Alchohols post and check his links. It might help in some small way with your confusion. [/b][/quote]Sure did. Most telling statistic (and it really ruins your little theory about the unemployment rate going down) is right here. (in thousands) -----------------------June-------July-----Change Civilian Labor Force:-147,096----146,540----(556) Employed:-------------137,738----137,478----(260) Unemployed:-------------9,358------9,062----(296) [b]Not in labor force[/b]------73,918-----74,712-----794 Here's the fun part. "Not in labor force" includes (from the gov't website) [quote]about 1.6 million persons (not seasonally adjusted) were marginally attached to the labor force, little changed from a year earlier. These individuals wanted and were available to work and had looked for a job sometime in the prior 12 months. They were not counted as unemployed, however, because they did not actively search for work in the 4 weeks preceding the survey. Of the 1.6 million, 470,000 were discouraged workers who were not currently looking for work specifically because they believed no jobs were available for them. The other 1.1 million marginally attached had not searched for work for reasons such as child-care or transportation problems. (See table A-13.)[/quote]Which means that the government declared them "no longer part of the workforce" for statistical purpose because at least half a million of them had given up trying to find a job. That's a pretty easy way to reduce the unemployment rate, IMO - just take people who want to work but have searched so long for a job that they are "discouraged workers" right out of the survey. Meanwhile, another 260,000 people lost their jobs in July. [quote]Uh, Grif... With a fairly recent past that included over-inflated economic indicators, dot com companies with huge worth and no assets of any kind, phony accounting, etc. and an economic up cycle that was coming to an end, something had to slow down. As the economy slows, unemployment goes up. People have a tendency to not buy and they pull back spending. You can always tell when home sales are going to slow down by watching home improvement company stocks and profits. When more folks are just fixing up the old homestead instead of selling it, things are slowing down. Since the stock market took a dump, many savings, 401K, retirement stock plans, etc. saw major gains go away. A lot of people are worried about losing their jobs and saving their money. All these things are bad in the short period but good overall. We cannot go on a merry spending party for ever. Bankruptcies were up during the Clinton years and have continued going up at a record pace during this administration. People were deeply in debt with outstanding credit debt at an all time high. These cycles are on a downturn now and that's a good thing for the future. [/quote]Sure. I filed bankruptcy in 1998. When lots of people file bankruptcy, the overall debt level goes down. Simple math there. You're painting an awfully rosy picture with some very questionable statistics. I'm saying that the fundamental core of the economy is employment. No job = no income = no spending = no contribution to what even [b]you[/b] must admit is a consumption-driven economy. Show me the jobs. 556,000 people dropped off the unemployment rolls and into the "not in labor force" category, while 260,000 more people lost their jobs. That's not a drop in unemployment, it's cooking the books. [b]Nearly all economic indicators are showing growth now. Unemployment is still down but should be better. Understand we cannot simply add more government jobs like the last administration did and say "we have created jobs". Those jobs require additional taxes to support and do not help the economy. [/b] The last administration did not just add government jobs. 2 million people did not suddenly begin working for the government during that period. Bush's unemployment rate is at an alltime high despite the fact that he has removed 500,000 people from the workforce in the last 3 years via military reserve callups. If the "war on terror" ended tomorrow, the unemployment rate would jump nearly 1%. Fact is, Bush created thousands of new government jobs via the "Homeland Security" department. Still didn't help the unemployment rate... [quote]Now all I have said will be a moot point if our local and state governments get involved. Oregon just passed the largest tax increase in state history and we have record unemployment..8.1 percent. We will not recover in Oregon unless the voters turn down this tax bill. [/quote]Whose fault is that? Bush makes massive cuts in education and other essential social programs, and hands the states a swarm of new "unfunded mandates" to meet. They gotta get the money from somewhere. So they raise taxes while Bush cuts taxes and looks like a hero for doing it. Great way to pass the buck, IMO. [quote]I do not remember using your name specifically, however, sounds like I hit a nerve..so, if the shoe fits....[/quote]You said "those who are slightly left-leaning", which you have accused me of repeatedly, because I don't agree with your views. [quote]And I do appreciate the profanity..the last refuge of the terminally stupid. I know, words escape you.. well you are just a....poo pee head. so there..[/quote]Go for it. Enjoy your little cheap shot. As long as you believe that all who disagree with you are [b]un-american[/b], you can expect more of the same. (edit) BTW, Mark. I find it no less profane for you to accuse me and all others who find your views disagreeable "un-American jerks". "Sanctimonious fuckhead" is no worse - and if anything, it's more tolerable - the only "Un-American" members of this country are the ones that [b]don't care[/b]. A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcohol Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 Good Post Scott :thu: As they say: The devil is in the details. "The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in a period of moral crisis maintain their neutrality." [Dante Alighieri] (1265-1321) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WFTurner Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 >>>>I have some additional bad news for those of you who are leaning slightly left.. The economy is recovering. Growth is up in nearly all sectors. The GDP has exceeded projections. The tax cuts are starting to have an effect. The news is reporting today the connection between Al Qaeda and Iraq. Our armed forces are fighting terrorists in the desert of the middle east. Our innocent civilians are not trying to survive terrorist attacks on American streets and in American cities. There have been no attacks on American soil in two years. Those of you who wish we would fail in this effort against terrorism, those who wish our economy would get worse so your political party can win an election, those of you who cannot figure out that in Vietnam, 500 soldiers a week died. We have defeated the sixth largest military force in the world, we have thrown out a brutal regime, we have begun the long process of actually doing something about terrorism that no administration in the history of America has attempted and we will win. I feel so sorry for those of you who cannot feel anything but hate. Who cannot hope for success for your fellow citizens, who hope for defeat, failure and an economic disaster just to forward your political agenda. Thankfully, our soldiers are willing to put their lives on the line so you have the right to be such complete anti American jerks.<<<< GZ: Perfectly stated. Thanks. William F. Turner Songwriter turnersongs Sometimes the truth is rude... tough shit... get used to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wow Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 [quote] When my own country, and it's first amendment, are the target of shame attacks[/quote]This is not the only amendment under attack. The 2nd Amendment is under attack. The 10th Amendment is no longer of any use. Do any of these make you mad also? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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