Is it talent or skill?

[miroslav]

I can tell when a guitar is out of tune, but I can't tell when it is precisely in tune, if that makes any sense . I attribute that more to the fact that I have tinnitus and some hearing loss.

 

They have great little software strobe tuners that can take care of that precision issue for you.

 

http://www.petersontuners.com/

 

Sometimes when you are tuning, you can get "lost" on the small beats of the sound waves...and it's hard to tell if the string is just a pinch sharp or just a pinch flat.

When that happens...I will intentionally put the string more out of tune ...and then bring it back in again on the mark.

 

[Guitarzannie]

I can tell when a guitar is out of tune, but I can't tell when it is precisely in tune, if that makes any sense . I attribute that more to the fact that I have tinnitus and some hearing loss.

 

They have great little software strobe tuners that can take care of that precision issue for you.

 

http://www.petersontuners.com/

 

Sometimes when you are tuning, you can get "lost" on the small beats of the sound waves...and it's hard to tell if the string is just a pinch sharp or just a pinch flat.

When that happens...I will intentionally put the string more out of tune ...and then bring it back in again on the mark.

 

Thanks for the link. I actually have a little Korg tuner, which helps me immensely. Eventually I will be able to train my ear, I think.

 

After I tune the guitar, I do test the tuning using the method that is in my lesson book and what my teacher taught me.

 

Michelle

[Guitar Geezer]

Don't feel bad Michelle, My hearing is going downhill, and I have to rely on a Tuner to "Finalize" it.

[Guitar55]

A skill can be learned.

 

Talent is what allows you to use that skill in a creative way...especially when talking about the arts.

 

Learning the skill of playing guitar playing is NOT the same as learning the skill of bulldozer operation.

Also...there is little inherent creative talent involved in applying those bulldozer operation skills. It's 99.99% learned mechanics...

 

Applying guitar skills so that they communicate certain feelings and images requires some degree of "born with" talent...and you can see that from the many players who are very proficient, but can't really play with any sense of feeling or creativity...

it's all mechanics to them.

 

Well said.

 

You can be born with Talent which makes it somehwat easier to acquire and develop Skill, a process which can be driven by Passion.

 

 

[miroslav]

There we go...all three working together.

 

Talent, Skill and Passion.

[Zuben]

My nickel (inflation). Talent is something one is born with. Genetic predisposition. Skill is something that is acquired through training, practicing. Even Talent has to recognize it and work to tap into it.

 

I read the statement by Lyle. You have to realize that "talent" in industry terminology is anyone on the performing side of the recording industry. Technically, you don't have to have skill or talent in the Webster's definition to be termed talent

[PBBPaul]

Interesting responses all. Thank you. I didn't expect my little semi-drunken rant to grow legs .

 

Perhaps miro is right... talent, skill and passion all work together.

 

Zuben, I realize what the term "talent" means in the entertainment world and have no problem with Lyle's statement. I was thinking more among non-industry folk - the seemingly prevailing attitude that it just happens. I was thinking in terms of other skills that are admired for the incredible effort needed to bring them to fruition - eg. science, medicine, business leadership, etc...

 

Are we really born with it though? Or are we influenced at an early age to have a propensity for development of a particular skill? How many of us had music (recorded or performed) playing around the house when we were children? Do you think that this might have led us to want to emulate what we heard? Maybe a inherent competitive drive to be our best at something is what forced some to go after it and others not to?

 

Or were we just born with it?

[Fumblyfingers]

You HAVE put in the time.

 

That's very different to people that SAY they want to make music, only they never find the time to learn and to become good players.

 

Okay I get your take now, sorry I got snippy, I really am.

 

 

Right now I am sitting in my surgeons office waiting to see him. I want to get written off work again......I am hurting.....maybe I will get some time to write now Kramer

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

Okay I get your take now, sorry I got snippy, I really am.

 

Well, I'm sorry you took it the wrong way too, because the last thing I want is for people to feel that I'm attacking them. I'm sorry if you felt that way. Whenever I feel I'm being attacked, it really eats me up inside and takes up way too many braincells... and I wouldn't want to unwittingly put anyone through that. It's a sh!tty sensation.

 

 

I will get some time to write now Kramer

 

They DO say that everyone's got at least one novel inside them!

[miroslav]

I was thinking more among non-industry folk - the seemingly prevailing attitude that it just happens.

 

No different than the classic industry joke about someone being an "overnight success"...meanwhile, the guy's been pitching his act for 20 years and waiting for that big break! :grin:

 

Are we really born with it though?

 

Not sure what exactly we are born with and what is learned, developed and influenced by our environments...but I think you can take a bunch of very young kids and place them in a room filled with various objects...musical instruments, erector sets, model planes and trains, dolls...etc...etc...

...and each will "naturally" find their favorite even though they have little knowledge about what those things really are.

 

So yeah...we have internal wiring that leans us in specific directionsand that's where that "talent" comes from...

 

[Guitarzannie]

I was thinking more among non-industry folk - the seemingly prevailing attitude that it just happens.

 

No different than the classic industry joke about someone being an "overnight success"...meanwhile, the guy's been pitching his act for 20 years and waiting for that big break! :grin:

 

Are we really born with it though?

 

Not sure what exactly we are born with and what is learned, developed and influenced by our environments...but I think you can take a bunch of very young kids and place them in a room filled with various objects...musical instruments, erector sets, model planes and trains, dolls...etc...etc...

...and each will "naturally" find their favorite even though they have little knowledge about what those things really are.

 

So yeah...we have internal wiring that leans us in specific directionsand that's where that "talent" comes from...

 

Miroslav, I totall agree!

 

Whenever I have taken any type of personality test, such as Myers Briggs, I have always scored high in the creative/artistic element.

 

Which probably explains why I have been unhappy for a few years now being a secretary or in an office in particular. Some people suppress their true talents because they listen too much to other people, as in my case.

 

However, the tide is turning for me. People in my life have been really supportive with my lessons.

 

 

 

Michelle

 

[Eric VB]

Uh, I agree with Miro's original post. You have to use the art angle to get the proper perspective. A house painter may be good at painting (skilled), but he's probably not going to be able to paint an original like the Mona Lisa (talented).

 

I also agree with Neil on the legalities of the issue. First off, as a studio musician, wouldn't you rather get paid for your 8 hour session, today, than to wait and see if the recording ever generates revenue? As they say, 100% of nothing is still nothing. OTOH, the economics are such that the record companies can afford to pay for all that studio time on songs that never recoup because of the big payoffs on those rare hits. They wouldn't want to give up that arrangement, and fortunately they have the law of supply and demand on their side. If a studio musician tries to hold out for a cut, he can be easily replaced for someone willing to work for the standard flat fee.

 

As far as receiving compliments on my playing goes, I've finally come to terms with that. I used to feel uncomfortable about it. I mean, really, I wasn't a great trombonist at age 10 in the school band now was I? I guess not, because I didn't make it past the auditions for the school talent show on trombone. The next year I was in a band that won first prize by playing "Proud Mary" on electric bass. Was I suddenly that much more talented or skilled? Not really, but my entertainment value skyrocketed. [As an aside, it was a trumpet, trombone, bass and drums band -- no guitar! -- so I ended up getting a lot of attention for having the closest thing to a guitar. ]

 

Someone mentioned something about playing by ear. When it comes to music I believe hearing has at least as much to do with talent as physical dexterity. Sure, just because I can hear every note Yngwie hits doesn't mean I can play like him. Still, there was an enlightening discussion some time ago on the Keyboard Corner about absolute ("perfect") pitch that made me realize what a huge advantage those people have when playing music. Is that a talent or a skill? Someone quoted a study that said after a certain point -- was it age 5? -- the chance of developing absolute pitch declines rapidly. If that is the case then it is a skill, but one that becomes exponentially harder to learn as we age. (Once you have it you have it, though.) So it's a quasi-talent, if you will: you either learn it while you're young or resign yourself to never having it.

 

Finally, remember that music can be seen as four components: melody, harmony, rhythm and dynamics. You've got to be firing on all four of these cylinders. Today's popular music is very much driven by rhythm. Someone else around here quoted a source that said people will more likely recognize a melody if the notes are wrong and the rhythm is right than if the notes are right but the rhythm is wrong. Rhythm and timing are key. But that alone isn't going to get you very far; melodic phrasing is also necessary. Harmony as it relates to guitar could mean note choice (as in during a solo) or chord voicing. But I'm starting to think those ever-so-subtle dynamics -- just a touch of accent on the right note in a phrase -- is what people subconsciously notice from "good" or "talented" players.

 

Then of course with guitar there are all the little nuances that shape a note's sound: bend, hammer on, slide, harmonic (all varieties), etc. Based on the goal of at least some jazz wind players -- to have their instrument approach the human voice -- I'd say that holds for guitar, too. Next time you hear someone talking whom you enjoy listening to, pay attention to all the subtle details of their voice: pitch, inflection, timing, stress, volume, etc.

[fantasticsound]

Interestingly enough, I'm told most recording sessions in Nashville are being paid at regualar session rates regardless of whether the record is expected to hit big or not. They then upgrade the pay rate to master session, paying the musicians the difference, only when there's evidence it is a hit record.

 

Otherwise, all but the top of the tops get paid standard unless the product makes money. So much for the musician's skill and talent being paid according to their level. They're being paid according to the sales potential.

 

I'm told a lot of guys had their income cut by a large percentage when this became the norm. Anyone have more info on this practice? True? False?

[BrianWren]

I think that there is both talent and skill.

I couldnt agree more.

 

My younger sister is a violinist who was in Youth Symphanies as a teenager.

 

She would practice with friends (which I hated listening to!), who from time to time would tell me that they all practiced all the time, but my sisters playing had a feel that they all were envious of.

 

I have a friend who practices enough. Hes not a professional musician, but he practices more than 10 hours a weeksometimes a lot more than.

 

He bought a guitar that has LEDs in the fingerboard, and is using it to learn the solo to Evil Ways, how to play some Synyrd songs, and so on. He talks about blues "boxes" on the fingerboard, has bought tutorial DVDs, and so on.

 

He really likes playing guitar. He goes to several open mikes a week.

 

But no matter what he does, his playing has nothing about it that is compelling. (I kind of cringe sometimes while listening.) There is just no feel.

 

Now, I am not very fast. I just cant get my fingers to move fast. But what I do play I play without hitting the wrong note or the wrong string.

 

But beyond that, I have a feel for what I play. People have really nice things to say to me about my playing (very encouraging!), playing which I know quite well is not technologically sophisticated. So it must be delivery...

 

So, of course, if talent doesnt practice it will have no abilities, no skills. But also much skill (as in my friend, and my sisters friends) without that tough-to-define talent doesn't make it to where you would want to go either...

[BrianWren]

Beats the daylights out of option #2 though...

[Guitarzannie]

I think that there is both talent and skill.

I couldnt agree more.

 

My younger sister is a violinist who was in Youth Symphanies as a teenager.

 

She would practice with friends (which I hated listening to!), who from time to time would tell me that they all practiced all the time, but my sisters playing had a feel that they all were envious of.

 

I have a friend who practices enough. Hes not a professional musician, but he practices more than 10 hours a weeksometimes a lot more than.

 

He bought a guitar that has LEDs in the fingerboard, and is using it to learn the solo to Evil Ways, how to play some Synyrd songs, and so on. He talks about blues "boxes" on the fingerboard, has bought tutorial DVDs, and so on.

 

He really likes playing guitar. He goes to several open mikes a week.

 

But no matter what he does, his playing has nothing about it that is compelling. (I kind of cringe sometimes while listening.) There is just no feel.

 

Now, I am not very fast. I just cant get my fingers to move fast. But what I do play I play without hitting the wrong note or the wrong string.

 

But beyond that, I have a feel for what I play. People have really nice things to say to me about my playing (very encouraging!), playing which I know quite well is not technologically sophisticated. So it must be delivery...

 

So, of course, if talent doesnt practice it will have no abilities, no skills. But also much skill (as in my friend, and my sisters friends) without that tough-to-define talent doesn't make it to where you would want to go either...

 

Brian, I have never heard of a guitar like that! It sounds like an organ that my mother bought in the 1970s. It has a lighted keyboard and colored coded keys to make chords. The books that came with it were sort of the paint-by-numbers type.

 

Instruments like these sort of teach you the mechanics of how to play, but they don't teach you the skill of interpretation. The skill of interpretation is one that my teacher is impressing upon me each week. I am learing to make the songs I play "mine".

 

Part of the reason that some people don't want to play songs differently that others is that they are afraid that their interpretation is wrong. In most cases, there is no wrong, just different.

 

BTW, I also learned many years ago the skill of interpretation when I took vocal lessons. IMHO, it really helps your interpretation skills if you already have a feel for the kind of music you are playing.

 

Michelle