What Lincon said

[fantasticsound]

Whitefang - No doubt, the Driving Instructor and The Grace L. Ferguson Airline & Storm Door Company sketches are classics. In addition, Abe Lincoln Vs. Madison Avenue and Discoveries Unappreciated In Their Time (about Sir Walter Raleigh) are hilarious. Get [i]The Button Down Mind Of Bob Newhart[/i] or [i]The Button Down Concert[/i] on CD. They're wonderful. An exerpt from Gettysburg: [quote]Abe?... You've got the speech?... You haven't changed the speech, have you? (long pause, then sigh) Abe? Why do you change the speeches all the time? Okay.. what are the changes?... You [i]typed[/i] it?!? Abe, how many times have we told you, "On the backs of envelopes"??... Well, it looks like you wrote it on the train coming down... I know it's harder to read, but couldn't you put it on the backs of the envelopes and memorize it?... We're getting a [i]lot[/i] of play in the press on that. How are the envelopes holding out?... You could use another box. Ok... Anything else in the speech, Abe?... "People will little note, nor long remember".. What could possibly be wrong with that, Abe?... Abe, [i]they'll remember it.[/i].. Trust me Abe. What are you gonna say, "It was a great speech I think everybody'll remember it?", I mean you'll come off a braggert... [i]Do the speech the way Charlie wrote it, will you please?!?[/i][/quote]

[Super 8]

[quote]Originally posted by Jotown: [b]Do you really believe that the end justifies the means in every Bush decision? Can you really be that brainwashed?[/b][/quote]Well, I don't know, Jotown? Can you really be that big of a narrow-minded dumb-ass??? (sorry, if that was harsh, but nobody has brainwashed me. I am at least as capable of thinking and making decisions as you are! If that bothers you, then YOU have the problem. So get a grip, and start treating me like an independent-minded human, you weenie, and I won't have to get so pissed off next time...) Never ONCE did I even suggest that the end justified the means... You are well aware that I PERSONALLY take the position that removing Saddam was a GOOD THING. I am well aware that you disagree. That's fine with me. Maybe you're right. Maybe I'm right. But in another sense, it is unlikely that anyone will be able to say they were COMPLETELY right about every facet of this thing. Assuming that being the case, it would mean that I am right about some things and wrong about others and so are you. And that's where I was trying to go with this... I'm NOT saying that the gulf war was right because... or wrong because... I'm saying that the gulf-war has happened, and in the aftermath that is unfolding, what are some of the positive and negative outcomes? Especially, the 'unintended' outcomes -both good and bad. The response I got back tells me that people are not interested in talking about that, and would rather continue doing 'editiorials' on Bush. Good for them... :rolleyes:

[Philter]

I would just like to point out that we shouldn't become complacent about being lied to and misled by our government. That would be a strong sign of a democratic nation in decline.

[Philter]

One more question- if our government truly believed that there were massive stockpiles of WOMD in Iraq, why didn't they move aggressively to secure them? Why were looters allowed to strip [i]known[/i] nuclear power plants of radioactive materials? As I see it, either a) they didn't actually believe that there were WOMD, and simply lied to the American public and the rest of the world to get their way, or b) they deceived themselves into believing faulty intelligence, after which they completely failed to prevent the worst possible outcome, which was the scattering of all those dangerous materials to the four winds. To me, neither explanation is acceptable or forgiveable.

[Jotown]

[quote]Originally posted by Super 8: [b] [quote]Originally posted by Jotown: [b]Do you really believe that the end justifies the means in every Bush decision? Can you really be that brainwashed?[/b][/quote]Well, I don't know, Jotown? Can you really be that big of a narrow-minded dumb-ass???[/b][/quote]Super 8, you are so predictable. As soon as a question is asked that you don't have an answer for you do the typical conservative thing: Dodge the question and start calling people names. Says alot about your IQ, as well as the shallowness of your position.

[Super 8]

Spoken like a true democrat you bone head. You don't even have the brains to read the entire post. You get the gist from the first two sentences and then shoot off a reply. Says a hell of a lot about your IQ. Hell, the fact that you spend so much of your time arguing your redundant point in these threads says a lot about your IQ. You think I'm predictable? Shallow??? Here's some 'predictable' for you, Jotown: 1. 'Anyone who doesn't agree with Jotown is wrong by default.' 2. 'It's okay if Jotown wants to cut people down, but it's not okay if Jotown has to take what he dishes out'. This could go on, but like I said earlier; you stopped reading long ago... Oh okay, maybe one more... 3. Jotown also posts under the name ArellSpencer. If you're still reading, Jotown. Now would be a good time to assume your 'blameless-victim' stance, and just pretend that your other posts never happened, and that I just started attacking you. You poor, poor thing... :rolleyes:

[Jotown]

Super 8, I did not call you any names, but your response, again, speaks volumes about you. I rest my case.

[Philter]

Positive outcomes... -Saddam out of power -Our thumb over Iraq's oil supply (we will need this control during the approaching oil crisis... world reserves are being rapidly depleted and we will soon be living through the end of the petroleum age.) -Increased leverage in dealing with Sharon and Israel. We'll see how this turns out; if Bush manages to secure a sovereign Palestinian state I will gain some respect for him. It's much too early to tell if these efforts will succeed however. I'll believe it when I see it! Negative outcomes... -no accounting for what happened to Iraq's alleged WOMD. this could mean... -they have been disbursed, scattered... into the hands of terrorists, who knows? We do know for a fact that multiple nuclear power plants were looted. In general I feel that we are now [i]more[/i] likely to experience an incident related to Iraq's nuclear program or chem/biol programs (if they in fact existed) than we were before the war. This is an absolute failure on the apart of the planners of this adventure- the war was sold on the basis of protecting America from Iraq's weapons programs. -it could also mean a serious pie-in-the-face for American intelligence. Selling a similar story will only be more difficult next time around if we can find no proof that these programs even existed. -an increase in recruiting for Al Qaeda and a further polarization of radical Islam -Continued failure of US to stabilize Iraq fuels fundamentalism and also damages our international reputation. It's really stupid. Think back to before the war when one general spoke up and said we'd need several hundred thousand troops to stabilize Iraq... the administration jumped all over him... and he turned out to be correct... The continued lawlessness in Iraq really highlites some serious deficiencies in this government- in our intelligence agencies, in our military, in our administration- it's a serious and blind mistake that should have been avoided. That and letting looters get at what we went there to begin with (supposedly...) How does allowing Iraq's radioactive materials (and possibly chem/biol weapons) to be looted and scattered make us any safer? It doesn't! Finally, our government is driving itself and our economy into the ground with simultaneous spending increases and tax cuts. We're going to need to be in Iraq for years now and it's going to cost untold billions of dollars that we can't afford.

[jlahib.no]

the statue falling was a staged event for the cameras. i amnot saying that people were not happy about getting rid about saddam and dint tear down saddam posters or anything ridicolous like that, but only that this particular picture of that exact statue falling that now everyone has seen was a staged event for TV.

[alcohol]

Negative outcomes: Ten more American soldiers died in the past week. Positive outcomes: Saddam is out of power.

[Super 8]

[quote]Originally posted by Jotown: [b]Super 8, I did not call you any names, but your response, again, speaks volumes about you. I rest my case.[/b][/quote]I knew you'd pull some crap like this, Jotown. [quote]Originally posted by Super 8: [b] Now would be a good time to assume your 'blameless-victim' stance, and just pretend that your other posts never happened, [/b][/quote]Let's review: [quote]Originally posted by Jotown: [b]Do you really believe that the end justifies the means in every Bush decision? Can you really be that brainwashed? [/quote][/b] [quote]Originally posted by Jotown: [b] Says alot about your IQ, as well as the shallowness of your position. [/quote][/b] Is it really asking so much to have one's opinion politely disagreed with, but still to have it respected as a valid, well-thought out opinion, rather than to be told you have no validity to your opinion because you have a low IQ, are shallow, and have been brainwashed? Is it wrong to ask for a basic level of respect? I find these things to be insulting! I'm an intelligent, educated man! I'm not led by the nose by every deceitful manipulator that comes along. I believe what I believe because I have chosen to believe it! If I'm wrong -and as a human, I sometimes am- I have the ability to admit it! Yes, I hurled some stupid names at you, Jotown. They hold no meaning -other than that I was pissed. They don't tell you that you don't possess the level of functioning to think for yourself... Think about it, Jotown... Other people have feelings too! Other people may hold views that are contrary to yours. Those views may be wrong. But then again they may be right, and yours might be wrong! Is that okay? Do we still get to be people? Or do we have to be compartmentalized as mindless automatons?

[Philter]

Mr 8, a number of people now have replied to your post in a meaningful way.

[Super 8]

Thanks, Philter. I was addressing Jotown specifically.

[Wow]

[quote] 3. Jotown also posts under the name ArellSpencer. [/quote]Jotown is just a wuss. :D

[Jotown]

[quote]Originally posted by Super 8: [b]Thanks, Philter. I was addressing Jotown specifically.[/b][/quote]Super 8, The possibility that you could be capable of having an intelligent conversation about anything political was greatly diminished by your resorting to name calling. Also your use of the word "Democrat" as if it was an expletive, shows your contempt of anyone who doesnt agree with your conservative agenda. Your Arrel Spencer comment shows how easily you, and those of your ilk resort to telling outright lies to defame those that you disagree with. Typical conservative tactics. Try to shout the oppposition down. Call them offensive names. And if that doesnt work just make up some lies.... :rolleyes: So predictable, and pathetic. For the record, I am not a democrat or a republican, but an independant. I am able to see both sides of the story without the partisan blinders that you are wearing.

[Wow]

BLA BLA BLA, address the issue or move on. :p

[Salyphus]

Yep, attack the messenger. Classic tactic when you have no argument :rolleyes:

[Jotown]

[quote]Originally posted by MR. WOW: [b]BLA BLA BLA, address the issue or move on. :p [/b][/quote]You never address the issue. You just dump a bucket of your conservative rhetoric into the water to muddy it up a bit. Makes it harder to see the truth; doesnt it?

[Tusker]

[quote]Originally posted by Ted Nightshade: [b]Lincoln really wrote that? Astonishing. [/b][/quote]Ted, I do think Lincoln was brilliant in his use of words. In Henry 4 part II, King Henry of Bolingbroke makes an impassioned speech about fighting a war for the holy land (which the audience knows is a way for him to quell rebellion and consolidate his slipping support). More recently, we had Wag the Dog. So it's a well-worn theme, but elequently expressed by Lincoln. Lincoln wrote his own speeches. Here's what I know about the Gettysburg speech. Source is a book on great speeches recalled as best I can. Lincoln wasn't originally scheduled to speak ... they had scheduled in a professional speaker when the President of the United States wrote and asked if he might say a few words. After some hesitation they agreed. Sensing he was about to be overshadowed, the professional speaker backed out and sent his notes to Lincoln. Lincoln took long walks, pondering what to say. Wrote his own speech (may have referred to the notes he was sent). He re-wrote the speech several times and lived with the speech for a week. Carried his speech rolled up in his hat and when he had ideas, he unrolled it and made corrections. When he arrived, he stayed with a prominent local family, who arranged a reception in his honor the night before. His hostess asked him to say a few words and he declined, saying that he would probably say what was on his mind, and he needed to reserve that for the morrow. This statement apparently embarrassed the lady of the house. The following morning he delivered two and a half minutes of brilliance. I am not trying to debate, but someone said that Bush and Cheney "lied". Is this in reference to the absence of WMD or something else? Just curious... Jerry

[Philter]

It's a tough call- which option is better: -the administration misled us about Iraq's weapons programs in order to play on our fears and gain our support, or -the administration believed what it was saying, yet when the war started, failed to secure the sites where it believed these weapons were kept, allowing them to fall into the hands of looters. We know for a fact that radioactive material is unaccounted for, as numerous nuclear power plants were looted! How could we have let this happen? Wasn't it the whole point of the war to secure these materials and protect against them falling into the hands of terrorists?

[Super 8]

[quote]Originally posted by Jotown:[b] Super 8, The possibility that you could be capable of having an intelligent conversation about anything political was greatly diminished by your resorting to name calling. [/b][/quote]Check the back log, Jotown. It was YOU not me who started with the insults... [b] [quote] Also your use of the word "Democrat" as if it was an expletive, shows your contempt of anyone who doesnt agree with your conservative agenda. [/b][/quote]No, actually it was in response to you calling me a "Conservative" [quote]Originally posted by YOU:[b][i] you do the typical conservative thing: [/i][/quote][/b] [quote]MY response:[b][i]Spoken like a true democrat you bone head.[/i] [/quote][/b] I just figured you might like to see what it's like to be labeled the way you label others. Kinda sux, don't it? [quote]Originally posted by Jotown:[b] Your Arrel Spencer comment shows how easily you, and those of your ilk resort to telling outright lies to defame those that you disagree with.[/quote][/b] MY ilk??? And just who are MY ilk? You're right about one thing... I did make the part about you posting as Arrel up. But one does have to ask, what's they freak'n difference. You use the same tactics to 'defame' others. You make rash assumptions. You make shit up. You're NOT so perfect... Does that make you a conservative, or a 'typical' liberal? [i](Ouch... :eek: )[/i] [quote]Originally posted by Jotown:[b] Typical conservative tactics. Try to shout the oppposition down. Call them offensive names. And if that doesnt work just make up some lies.... :rolleyes: So predictable, and pathetic.[/b][/quote]It really pisses you off when you have to take what you dish out doesn't it, Jotown? You just gotta get your digs in, and if anybody retorts, then THEY are resorting to 'typical tactics'. I hope you can see what a hypocrite you look like... [quote]Originally posted by Jotown:[b] For the record, I am not a democrat or a republican, but an independant. I am able to see both sides of the story without the partisan blinders that you are wearing.[/b][/quote]For the [b][i]"record"[/i][/b] I voted for Nader. Who'd YOU vote for, Mister "INDEPENDENT"??? [i]What a pompous ass... [/i] :rolleyes: As I see it... You owe me an apology.

[Jotown]

Lets see Super 8, Thus far you have called me "a narrow-minded dumb-ass", "a bone head", "and a pompous ass." You have also stated that: "Jotown also posts under the name ArellSpencer." I asked you if you could be that brainwashed, and I questioned your IQ after you started acting like a child and started the name calling. You are embarrasing yourself at this point, but carry on. It seems you can't help yourself.

[Super 8]

That's right... Keep talking down to me like a hypocrite. Never back up and question your actions. Just assume you are the victim... You STILL owe me an apology... And I'm expecting one...

[Wow]

Same shit, different thread.

[Jotown]

[quote]Originally posted by Jotown: [b]Lets see Super 8, Thus far you have called me "a narrow-minded dumb-ass", "a bone head", "and a pompous ass." You have also stated that: "Jotown also posts under the name ArellSpencer." I asked you if you could be that brainwashed, and I questioned your IQ after you started acting like a child and started the name calling. You are embarrasing yourself at this point, but carry on. It seems you can't help yourself.[/b][/quote]Super8 replies:"You STILL owe me an apology... And I'm expecting one..." [b]Super8, you are joking. Right?[/b]

[Super 8]

Nope... Not joking...

[Duhduh]

One of my best friends is a bartender at TGIFridays. As a bartender he is strongly encouraged to chat it up with the customers. But there are two subjects that are totally taboo and subject to termination: Politics and Religion.

[Wow]

I dont argue religion or abortion.

[fantasticsound]

For your own sake, if not the rest of us, just ignore him, Super8. Or for that matter, Ignore him, Jotown. What? Do we need to bring Craig in to separate you guys? Get over it and go to a neutral corner. I can't speak for anyone else, but I won't be tallying up the "points" in this bareknuckle brawl. If you can't do that, at least take it to the WAR thread where it belongs. :rolleyes:

[Super 8]

All I asked was to be treated with respect. Instead, he talks down to me. Hell, I'll even take back the names I called him, if he gives me a sincere apology -including "weenie"! All except for 'Pompous ass'... So far he's behaved very much like one. I'll take that one back when he stops being one...