Tedly Nightshade Posted May 25, 2003 Share Posted May 25, 2003 About Polk, after Polk invaded the Phillipines: Trusting to escape scrutiny by fixing the public gaze upon the exceeding brightness of military glory, that attractive rainbow that rises in showers of blood that serpents eye, that charms to destroy, he plunged into war. Quite a talker, that Lincoln. A WOP BOP A LU BOP, A LOP BAM BOOM! "There is nothing I regret so much as my good behavior. What demon possessed me that I behaved so well?" -Henry David Thoreau Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrave Posted May 26, 2003 Share Posted May 26, 2003 Thanks Ted. Still no sign of WMD is there? Bush's plan to go to war against Iraq was nothing more than a political ploy. As is his attempt to distract us by concentrating on the ecnomic aspect of life in this country. I refrain from actually calling our President evil, but conscienceless, ignorant, avaricious and greedy seem to fit him like a glove. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ME: "Nobody knows the troubles I've seen!" Unknown Voice: "The Shadow do!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedly Nightshade Posted May 26, 2003 Author Share Posted May 26, 2003 Evil is hardly necessary- although it comes readily enough to some lips... Callousness and greed are more than enough. Too much, in fact. A WOP BOP A LU BOP, A LOP BAM BOOM! "There is nothing I regret so much as my good behavior. What demon possessed me that I behaved so well?" -Henry David Thoreau Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super 8 Posted May 26, 2003 Share Posted May 26, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by wrave: [b]Bush's plan to go to war against Iraq was nothing more than a political ploy. [/b][/quote]Would you please stop saying that... You're not accomplishing anything, Wrave. You DON'T KNOW if there are WMDs there or not. Why stir the pot? All this is going to do is get people pissed off and arguing again. Stop being such a cynic. If they are there and we find them, then great. We got rid of them before they got used. If we don't ever find any, then at least we got rid of Saddam and his sons, which seems like a pretty good thing to me. Look, I'm not saying this is a perfect situation, or that's everything is cut and dried, or black and white. Maybe Bush had reasons that would fall into BOTH categories, some of which made perfect sense, others which were purely wrong. I don't know. I do know that the outcome won't be all bad or all good. It will create some new possibilities for the Iraqi's that wouldn't have existed with Saddam. This IS a new beginning for those people. Where is goes from here depends on a lot of factors. But where was is going when Saddam was in charge? It's scary and unpleasant anyway you look at it. But there are many sides to this story. Super 8 Hear my stuff here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcohol Posted May 26, 2003 Share Posted May 26, 2003 But we do know that Bush and Powell lied to us. We know that. That's indictment enough. "The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in a period of moral crisis maintain their neutrality." [Dante Alighieri] (1265-1321) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super 8 Posted May 26, 2003 Share Posted May 26, 2003 Dude, you've been ranting on that message for a long time... Give it up. Nothing is going to change. You aren't swaying any opinions here. Lieing about it doesn't make the war wrong. Not lieing about it doesn't make the war right. Politicians lie! We know they lie! That's the problem! They lie so much that we don't know when they are telling the truth! The way these threads look -if you read them all- is pure proverbial 'gridlock'! C'mon! We're creative types! We should be able to find more constructive ways of discussing these issues and finding answers, than just to play 'dueling quotations'. It's a never ending tug-of-war! Let's put those things aside, and start looking at the good and the bad elements that make this whole thing up. It's like considering the Internet. Yes, it puts a lot of porn at the common 11 year olds finger tips (way more porn than I ever had access to at that age!), but it also lets musicians like us communicate in ways we couldn't do otherwise. So it has +'s and -'s. What are some GOOD things that are coming out of this war? What are some BAD things? Super 8 Hear my stuff here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcohol Posted May 26, 2003 Share Posted May 26, 2003 Super 8 Maybe it's alright for you for the President to lie to the country about reasons to go to war. maybe you don't mind if he lies to you about sending your children to war. But I do mind. To me it's a real big deal. President wants to send my children and fellow citizens to put their life on the line, I want an honest reason, not fabricated evidence. The President has lost our trust, I think you have a problem in not admitting that. I think you have a problem in that you can rationalize such an egregious offense. So I'd be happy if you'd give up these pathetic rationalizations of egregious dishonesty. I'll tell you a good thing about us attacking Iraq. It's revealed to us the level of deception that this administration will decend to get what it wants. Knowledge is good. "The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in a period of moral crisis maintain their neutrality." [Dante Alighieri] (1265-1321) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super 8 Posted May 26, 2003 Share Posted May 26, 2003 I'm not rationalizing anything. I think you might be. But it doesn't matter really. Stay in the box and blame everything on the President for telling lies about things you really know nothing about. Like I said, it won't change anything. You trumpeting like a Democratic talk show host with words like [i]"egregious offense"[/i], isn't going to change anything. I mean really... When you get over charged at the supermarket do you say: "That was an egregious fiduciary overcharge of the highest order!!!???!!!"... Course, maybe you should... :eek: Stop being silly about this... What conditions would have had to be present for you to have said 'this war is a good idea'? Was there anything about this war, or the outcome that you agree with? What are some things that you disagreed with? If the President had not lied, would that have changed anything for you? Super 8 Hear my stuff here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcohol Posted May 26, 2003 Share Posted May 26, 2003 I know nothing about? What do I know nothing about? Why don't you tell me what I know nothing about. I remember we were supposed to know nothing about going to Vietnam. That our government knew things we didn't and that should silence our criticism. Well in 1995, Robert McNamara released a book that confirmed the war protesters criticisms of our involvement in Vietnam. Vietnam is an object lesson that the idea that our government knows best for us is invald. It's an object lesson that questioning authority is a responsiblity. It was an object lesson that those who tell us we know nothing do us a disservice. I think it's irresponsible of you to suggest that I know nothing, That the President has some secret knowlege that validates his lying to us. Such a suggestion goes against experience. "The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in a period of moral crisis maintain their neutrality." [Dante Alighieri] (1265-1321) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbrock1san.rr.com Posted May 26, 2003 Share Posted May 26, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by alcohol: [b]I know nothing about? What do I know nothing about? Why don't you tell me what I know nothing about.[/b][/quote]:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super 8 Posted May 26, 2003 Share Posted May 26, 2003 When did I say that 'secret knowledge' 'validates' anything??? I never said that. I said you don't know anything, because you don't. You don't have the intelligence reports that the President has. I mean, you already know this. What does it prove??? Not a damn thing... You mentioned VietNam. I think that war is like the great dividing line. You look at WWII, and it's all about being patriotic, and standing together. You look at Nam, and it's all about being butt-fucked. Would you agree? That war cost our country BIG TIME. And it cost our government huge amounts of credibility. I agree with you about questioning authority. I think that is a good thing that came out of a bad thing -that now we are far less likely to accept what we are told as being the 'truth'. We are skeptical of motives -and we should be. We have that right as Americans. Do you think that it is easier or harder for a politician to get away with lieing to the people now as opposed to say the 1950s? Do you think that VietNam and Watergate have had an affect on the 'KINDS' of politicians we have running for positions now? Super 8 Hear my stuff here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Tyler Posted May 26, 2003 Share Posted May 26, 2003 *****ATTENTION***** ***ALL POTENTIAL COMBATANTS*** Here is a break from the action from none other than THE ONE...THE ONLY....MR U.S.OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO....MR. BOB HOPE!!! (APPLAUSE PLEASE) [img]http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/bobhope/images/bobhopeuso.jpg[/img] P.S. Ted and friends. Try digging up an old thread of the same diatribe and give it the old bumperoo, eh? There are quite a few as you know. Geeze-frikkin'-Louise. :freak: Joe Pine (60's talk show host who sported a wooden leg) to Frank Zappa -- "So, with your long hair, I guess that makes you a woman." Frank Zappa's response -- "So, with your wooden leg, I guess that makes you a table." http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/album.php?aid=2001&alid=-1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super 8 Posted May 26, 2003 Share Posted May 26, 2003 Did you know that Bob Hope just turned 100? What a great guy! A guitar player friend of mine has an autographed picture of Bob Hope was made out to him personally! He was in the Air Force band Tops in Blue, and his Mom sent a newspaper clipping out to Hope, and he sent my friend the picture made out to him. I just think that is SOOO COOOL... They don't get any better than that! Super 8 Hear my stuff here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcohol Posted May 26, 2003 Share Posted May 26, 2003 Super 8 What's so hard for you to understand that Bush's statements about WMD have turned out to be false? This has nothing to do with me being privy to his intelligence knowledge. We all know that Bush's former claims about chemical and biological stockpiles have turned out to be false. We all know that Bush's claims about Iraq's ability to build a nuclear weapon has turned out to be false. We all know that Bush want's to be able to find evidence of these former claims and is unable to. Whether or not I'm privy to his intelligence briefings is irrelevant. To his embarrasment he has been unable to confirm the reasons he asked the UN to use force against Iraq and unable to confirm the reasons US soldiers have died in Iraq. This isn't a debatable point. It's being reported in the newspapers and on network news. Right now Bush looks like a liar. Don't you think he'd like to change that perception? "The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in a period of moral crisis maintain their neutrality." [Dante Alighieri] (1265-1321) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super 8 Posted May 26, 2003 Share Posted May 26, 2003 So all of the facts are in -case closed? This is all common public knowledge now? Super 8 Hear my stuff here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedly Nightshade Posted May 26, 2003 Author Share Posted May 26, 2003 I just related what Lincoln said. I wonder did he have a speechwriter? Who wrote the Gettysburg address? Lovely place, Gettysburg. Peaceful too, these days. I thought that was some pretty picturesque speech, there. Smooth talker, that Lincoln. We ought to have a game where we compare the visionary, courageous words of every President with their dispicable actions. Who's got the dirt on Lincoln? A WOP BOP A LU BOP, A LOP BAM BOOM! "There is nothing I regret so much as my good behavior. What demon possessed me that I behaved so well?" -Henry David Thoreau Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super 8 Posted May 26, 2003 Share Posted May 26, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Ted Nightshade: [b] Who's got the dirt on Lincoln?[/b][/quote]Oh my god! You don't EVEN wanna know what that guy was into!!! :eek: Super 8 Hear my stuff here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtrmac Posted May 26, 2003 Share Posted May 26, 2003 So a president who just happens to be in the oil business decides to invade the second largest oil field in the world and people still believe it was to liberate the people from the oppression of an evil dictator. Wake the hell up people! You're being played for suckers. Mac Bowne G-Clef Acoustics Ltd. Osaka, Japan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super 8 Posted May 26, 2003 Share Posted May 26, 2003 Okay fine... The President played us for suckers... Can we get off that track now? :rolleyes: What are some positive and negative outcomes of the war? Super 8 Hear my stuff here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan South Posted May 26, 2003 Share Posted May 26, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Super 8: [b]Okay fine... The President played us for suckers... Can we get off that track now? :rolleyes: [/b][/quote]No, sir, I'm afraid that we cannot. Every action has consequences. If our leaders continue to run around the world instigating violent confrontations, it's only a matter of time until that violence circles back around to harm Americans. In small ways, that has been going on all the time - ambushes in Iraq, bombings in Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, and Morocco, etc. But if we continue to throw out weight around, the probability of another large scale attack (like 9/11) increases. The only way to decrease the probability is to begin to treat the world's people with respect, instead of contempt. The Black Knight always triumphs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super 8 Posted May 26, 2003 Share Posted May 26, 2003 Yeah right... That'll work... Anyway. Okay, so nobody is up for any kind of thoughtfull discussion on this topic? If you want to do the endless debate thread, have at it. It's pointless, but have fun... :rolleyes: Super 8 Hear my stuff here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedly Nightshade Posted May 26, 2003 Author Share Posted May 26, 2003 Super 8 insists: "What are some positive and negative outcomes of the war?" WAY too early to tell exactly what bitter harvest we are reaping here. Much too early for all the hearty back-slapping going around, but it will play better now than it will later. Makes a good photo op. A WOP BOP A LU BOP, A LOP BAM BOOM! "There is nothing I regret so much as my good behavior. What demon possessed me that I behaved so well?" -Henry David Thoreau Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitefang Posted May 27, 2003 Share Posted May 27, 2003 Getting back to Lincoln; he pretty much wrote his own speeches. Most Presidents did in those days. Carl Sandburg's near obsession of Abraham Lincoln was due to the fact that Lincoln thought, spoke and wrote like a poet. Came natural to him. And yes, he alone wrote the Gettysburg Address. Whitefang I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedly Nightshade Posted May 27, 2003 Author Share Posted May 27, 2003 Lincoln really wrote that? Astonishing. He smokes Peggy Noonan anyday! Carl Sandberg is wonderful. That was a fine thing he did to poetry. So now I can revere Lincoln as an artist no matter what havoc he set loose as a statesman! A WOP BOP A LU BOP, A LOP BAM BOOM! "There is nothing I regret so much as my good behavior. What demon possessed me that I behaved so well?" -Henry David Thoreau Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotown Posted May 27, 2003 Share Posted May 27, 2003 It is said that Lincoln wrote the Gettysburg address on the train to Gettysburg. It is amazing what power simple sincere truth can convey. That is why I will always be a fan of President Lincoln. Super 8, I really think you are the one who is not capable of having an honest debate about anything Bush, or Iraq related. If your wife came home and told you: "Honey I lied to you about having sex with your best friend", or that "some negative and positive things came out of my affair". Would you be able to get past the lie? Do you really believe that the end justifies the means in every Bush decision? Can you really be that brainwashed? Jotown:) "It's all good: Except when it's Great" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duhduh Posted May 27, 2003 Share Posted May 27, 2003 Well, it seems the Iraqi people are pretty happy. Cheering in the streets, knocking down his statue, etc. Thats got to be worth something...? "Meat is the only thing you need beside beer! Big hunks of meat and BEER!!...Lots of freakin' BEER." "Hey, I'm not Jesus Christ, I can't turn water into wine. The best I can do is turn beer into urine." Zakk Wylde http://www.hepcnet.net/bbssmilies/super.gif http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/15_1_109.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantasticsound Posted May 27, 2003 Share Posted May 27, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by whitefang: [b]Getting back to Lincoln; he pretty much wrote his own speeches. Most Presidents did in those days. Carl Sandburg's near obsession of Abraham Lincoln was due to the fact that Lincoln thought, spoke and wrote like a poet. Came natural to him. And yes, he alone wrote the Gettysburg Address. Whitefang[/b][/quote](Ignoring the WAR in Iraq thread posts...) This is why I love President Lincoln. One of the few, true, statesman we've had seated in the office of President of the United States of America. OT - If you've never heard Bob Newhart's bit on the Gettysburg Address, you really should! :thu: Newhart's standup was based on one-sided conversations. The Gettysburg Address bit has Newhart, as Lincoln's fictional press secretary, talking on the phone to Lincoln before the train reached Gettysburg. It's absolutely hilarious. :D It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman Soundclick fntstcsnd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedly Nightshade Posted May 27, 2003 Author Share Posted May 27, 2003 "Well, it seems the Iraqi people are pretty happy. Cheering in the streets, knocking down his statue, etc. Thats got to be worth something...?" -------------------- There are people being operated on without anesthesia, no predictable supply of food, very little uncontaminated water, people drinking poisoned water because they have to drink something. I doubt they are very happy, but joy can bloom in horrible circumstances. I really hope they can get a halfway decent standard of living and some safety going over there, and everywhere else for that matter. A WOP BOP A LU BOP, A LOP BAM BOOM! "There is nothing I regret so much as my good behavior. What demon possessed me that I behaved so well?" -Henry David Thoreau Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duhduh Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Ted Nightshade: [b]"Well, it seems the Iraqi people are pretty happy. Cheering in the streets, knocking down his statue, etc. Thats got to be worth something...?" -------------------- There are people being operated on without anesthesia, no predictable supply of food, very little uncontaminated water, people drinking poisoned water because they have to drink something. I doubt they are very happy, but joy can bloom in horrible circumstances. I really hope they can get a halfway decent standard of living and some safety going over there, and everywhere else for that matter.[/b][/quote]Well, I didnt mean that as the Iraqi people are livin' in high cotton now. I meant they seemed pretty damn happy that Saddam was taken out of power. Unfortunately in matters of state, sometimes things have to get worse before they get better. "Meat is the only thing you need beside beer! Big hunks of meat and BEER!!...Lots of freakin' BEER." "Hey, I'm not Jesus Christ, I can't turn water into wine. The best I can do is turn beer into urine." Zakk Wylde http://www.hepcnet.net/bbssmilies/super.gif http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/15_1_109.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitefang Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 I recall Newhart doing that, Fantastic. But, can't recall any of the bit. Newhart was hilarious with those one-sided phone conversations. Or, the only heard side of any conversation. His driving instructor bit is classic! Whitefang I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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