24/192K and DVD-A and SACD--The Future

[oudplayer]

[quote]Originally posted by Johnny B: [QB]I also believe CD sales are falling, or at least on a downward trend, while the opposite is true for DVD. DVD is trending up, up, up. [/quote]Well, since there weren't any DVD-audio releases a couple of years ago, it can only go up from there. It's not really a fair comparison, as a small number of early adopters buying a technology can appear like a majorly upwards sales momentum. [quote]I'm not sure where SACD is in the market, but Pink Floyd has a strong cult-like following, so the release of their classic "Dark Side of the Moon" on SACD could have spurred some sales. [/quote]I remember when the gold CD version of this album came out -- I think it was $27.99? It was a brief fad that didn't really go anywhere. I heard they did a lot of work on the SACD re-release, though, so despite the technological limitations of SACD, the non-compressed version of DSOTM it could potentially be an interesting sonic comparison. I'm sure those of us who spent way too much of our teenage and early adult years blasting DSOTM on headphones or trying to find all the backwards playing lyrics will pick it up just to hear things that weren't audible in the previous version (myself included!) But how is SACD going to [i]appear[/i] to be different to the majority of consumers out there? It looks like a CD, it plays like a CD -- basically, as far as the consumer can tell, it is a CD. At one point all albums made a big point of "DDD, DDA, DAA" designations, with warnings against those that were stuck with the unfortunate "DAA," but this marketing ploy didn't pan out, either. DVD-A is a little different... it can be marketed to the DVD consumers, and DVD-As don't play on CD players. To the consumer, it at least appears to be something [i]different [/i] than a CD. As a format, too, it is more flexible -- as others have written, there can be videos, movies, 2-channel high-resolution modes, surround modes, etc. My vote is with DVD-A in the future.

[Saint Johnny B]

I had a little chat today with a man named Nika who works at Sweetwater in sales. He has an interesting perspective on all of this which may cause people to rethink this whole area. He has a book coming out that will provide some details. It will also be interesting to see how all the experts react to what he has to say.

[CayoRecords]

I think dsd is the next generation...Blows pcm out of the water...I'm contemplating a genex 9048, the new neve dsd board and pyramix software...This is the end of discussion imo....Certainly something to very seriously consider...I hate pirates, and yes, they are destroying and hindering any future R&D....I'm glad the record companies are finally getting their just due (long overdue, in fact)....True artists will survive....Worthless blood suckers exposed for what they are....but what do I know :freak:

[Tedly Nightshade]

Lots of true artists die all the time. Many fine things never see the light of day. Nika is well known on these forums, and many many of the "experts" have heard from him already, and informed his ideas. Didn't know he had a book coming out though!

[doug osborne]

[quote]Originally posted by Johnny B: [b]Doug So do you see the future as the "Universal Player," that handles most, if not all, formats? Do you see the Discs themselves also containing files for all the players, in other words, the same disc will play on any available player? Since I'm ignorant as to the technical details, I don't even know if you could have both DVD-A and SACD on the same disc.[/b][/quote]Beyond a few modifications on the laser implementation, universal players are just a matter of extra code in the playback decoder. Pioneer is coming out with a universal DVD player in a short time for $179; affordable portables and car players shouldn't be that far behind. This kind of transparent universality and affordability should remove some obstacles from making hi-res and surround music more widely adopted. I don't see Sony/Philips coming out with a universal player any time soon - their loss. There is only so much real estate on discs with today's technology, so for every release, there are choices to be made, in light of all the options that could be exercised on discs. I don't see Sony/Philips allowing SACD and and MLP encoded content on one disc any time soon. The rise of 33 1/3 LPs was from the late '50s to the early '80s, and, guess what, it's been twenty years since the commercial introduction of CD. There should be no problem with a replacement format, especially one that takes advantage of the current installed base of DVD players. Maybe DVD-A and SACD releases should include a free CD of the 2-channel content (what a concept! I could be rich!!). Full backwards compatibility.

[Tedly Nightshade]

Albini's already put out one with LP (50 years and still viable) and CD in the same jacket, or just CD. I like that idea. LP jacket will still be the best package of all.

[Saint Johnny B]

Ted Can you explain this a little more. Exactly what comes on the CD or CD-looking disc? Thanks. :)

[Duardo]

[quote]Should we invest in 24/192 technology now, or wait for improvements to be made and prices to come down? [/quote]I think that moving to 24 bits can make a noticeable difference. 96/192 still seems to be more a marketing thing at this point...I don't think we've reached the full potential of 44.1 kHz audio yet, and when we do I don't think that higher rates will offer much more. But since the same guy that's loving the MP3's he downloads gets upset if the DVD he buys doesn't say "96K" on it because it must not sound as good and returns it, we've gotta have it. [quote]Will the car audio market or the home theatre market be driving the technology to such a point that consumers will be demanding super high-quality audio from the engineering and sound recording community? [/quote]Not necessarily...they'll drive the need for multichannel audio, but as far as quality I think that'll be more an audiophile thing. [quote]The future of recording will be more about access than fidelity. People would rather hear what they want to hear RIGHT NOW than anything else. [/quote]Yup. Sadly. As an audio engineer this makes me sad...more convenient access is fine with me, but not if it sacrifices quality. [quote]I don't think 13 year olds with cracked copies of Cubase are a threat to the industry. In a way, this kind of piracy is a good thing, as long as they grow up and buy a copy when they turn pro [/quote]Unfortunately, that's not what happens...they grow up, buy TDM systems and still get cracked plugins. The very existence of TDM cracks is perplexing...these are obviously not hobbyists or 13-year-old kids who are using these plugins. Unless everyone who is using cracked TDM plugins is also using stolen TDM systems. Somehow, I don't think that's the case. [quote]In theory, some kid in his bedroom could make something to rival Revolver or Pet Sounds The technology is there. That this hasn't happened yet indicates that it's not the technology, it's the talent that's lacking. [/quote]I think it's already happened. With the technology where it is, though, we may never hear it. That kid may not be able to get his recordings heard by the right people, or may not want to...maybe he's just recorded a few pieces for his girlfriend that are so personal to him he'd never play them for anyone else. Maybe it's someone who just likes to create new music to listen to in her car (I read somewhere that Prince does that). [quote]Some of these aftermarket custom installed car sound systems cost thousands of dollars and can produce not only high db but also some reasonable freq. response. [/quote]There's no doubt that there's high-quality car audio out there, but like you said, it's about high dB...that's easy. It's dynamic range that's hard, and in most cars you're not in an environment where you'll be able to appreciate a wide dynamic range or a full frequency response, even if it's there. I'm one of those people who hates overcompressed CD's and loves music with a wide dynamic range, but I still wish I had a nice Avalon 747 or something in my car so I could actually hear everything I listen to in there, even if it means a reduction in dynamic range. The car, however, does seem like a perfect place for surround. [quote]Since we are in the digital age, it seems to me that the key to really high quality sound, which actually rivals or surpasses analogue in its sound quality and modeled behavior, is nailing the A-to-D and D-to-A process. Once that conversion process is really right, the rest should fall into place. I'd like to hear from those who agree and disagree, since this is an open discussion. [/quote]I agree. The best converters I've heard sound just as good at 44.1 as they do at 96, but they still don't sound like the real thing. So there's more work to be done there. Don't even know if PCM audio is going to stay the standard... [quote]The planned CD layer added to DVD-A (in development, but not yet working) could push DVD-A ahead for good. [/quote]That'd be great, but unless the price comes down I don't see enough consumers buying DVD-A to make a difference. Why pay more for something that's better than CD when CD's already perfect, right? That's what they told us twenty years ago. [quote]Lots of folks get into car accidents as well when being distracted. [/quote]Maybe surround in the car isn't such a good idea after all... [quote]Will we soon be going beyond 24/192? After all the 64-bit word length operating systems for PCs and Apples are just around the corner. [/quote]Since we don't even have gear that capture a full 24-bit signal, there's no real advantage to going to 32 bits. As for going above 192, sure, we can capture more, but does it matter? [quote]If ANYONE should support software companies, it should be those who depend on the tools those companies produce!! [/quote]Amen! Not to mention those who make their living off of their own intellectual property...I still don't see how any musician with any sense of worth as an artist can justify stealing to themselves. [quote]I don't have any figures on this,but I would guess most pro's do buy their tools(software)and if anything use cracked copies to avoid copy protection.My guess is that the problem lies in the fact that all this software is aimed toward the home studio where most of the stealing is probably taking place,and where the biggest potential market is. [/quote]Nope, the existence of cracked TDM plugins says otherwise. [quote]I sense that the universal player will be the winner in the market. [/quote]That may well happen, but people have to keep buying the recordings themselves for them to survive. What will happen is people will buy these universal players, buy a DVD-A and SACD title or two, and then go back to buying CD's and downloading MP3's because they don't hear a difference between the formats (not realizing that they're not going to get the best results with two speakers on the floor, two on bookshelves at various heights, and one right next to the TV). [quote]Entire albums will come with videos for every song. [/quote]Oh, I really hope that doesn't happen. [quote]Just as you can't run TDM stuff without the hardware, there should be a generic product which you need to buy to run VST plugs and instruments, Cooledit, ACID, Nuendo, etc. Until the companies get together and do something like this I don't really have too much sympathy for them. [/quote]Again, considering the TDM cracks out there I don't know that that's the answer either. -Duardo

[Saint Johnny B]

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