Is it Really About The Music ?

[Eric VB]

A lot of good points made. Sorry if I repeat some.

 

Yes, I believe kids mimic what they hear (on the radio, their friend's iPod, etc.). They want to recreate that sound, even if it is not "real music". (How can they know it isn't "real" music if they don't know music yet? Not many pop composers get their Ph.D. in music before starting a recording career. ) I believe this is the motivation for what they write, not the money.

 

If you show me a lot of examples where musicians got their start in business -- used car sales, produce wholesaler, stock broker, real estate, etc. -- and then decided to use their business savvy to push a new commodity (music), then I'd believe those people were only in it for the profit. From the get-go they'd want to make a product that sells, the hell with whether or not it is "real" music.

 

IMO, the M.I. is still primarily "artists" and "suits", and the two are separate for the most part. The suits are only going to push product that they feel will sell. Where do they find it? Even if only a tiny fraction of musicians made the kind of music they were looking for, the suits would still have more than enough product to sell. (There is a bloated supply of music.) So even if 99.99% of musicians made "real" music, there'd still be that 0.01% that honestly wanted to make music -- "real" to them -- that happens to be of commercial quality. So, it's not the musicians that gravitate towards a commercial sound, it's the suits that gravitate towards commercial-sounding musicians.

 

As you develop as a songwriter, you'll eventually bounce your songs off of others for review. The general public is going to steer you towards what they are used to hearing. Hell, even established songwriters are going to steer you towards a more commercial sound. Not every song needs to have verses, a chorus and a bridge, but that's as good a place to start as any. And so the next generation of songs are based on formulae of the past.

 

Are there "real" musicians that "stoop" to write commercial successes? Sure. Call it selling out. Or call it getting a pay check. Whatever. It's not like it's a mortal sin. (Should we belittle the fine artist that makes a living as a graphic designer?)

 

There are those musicians that stick to their guns and are more than happy to have a niche audience. They don't need gold records and sold-out stadiums. (There's a quote by Vic Wooten somewhere to that effect.)

 

As far as music getting "dumber" (my word choice), don't sweat it. There's kind of a fashion pendulum. Right now we're swinging towards really stripped down stuff, way far away from the over-produced stuff of the '80s. It'll reach a peak and then start swinging back again.

 

The big change will come when someone comes up with something totally new that catches the public's fancy. The new "jazz" that kills ragtime, the new "rock" that kills jazz. Some say it is hip-hop, but I'm not too sure about that.

[Tone Taster]

I am just calling it the way I see it, and you can call me delusional if you want, but I get this "Is it really about the music" vibe even locally

 

I had booked this gig at this park in for free just so I could play some off the hook jams and get creative. As soon as I told some of the cats it was for "no money" no one wanted to do it

 

I gave at least 3 months notice about it, and the hours were in the afternoon on a Saturday to where they could've had enough time to break down, eat (or god knows what else), and make it to there "money" gig on Saturday night

 

it's like people don't even wnat to play anymore

 

I understand that I am abrasive at times, but I do not have a reputation for being an asshole in the music scene here to where no one wants to work with me

 

 

It's that people have forgotten why they got into music in the first place

 

Oh, yeah - about the gig . . . I wound up playing by myself so I wouldn't breach a verbal agreement

 

That experience really showed me that people just don't want to play anymore

[Guitarzan]

Originally posted by yZeCounsel:

Take Huey Lewis "I want a new drug"

 

There is a ripping 32 measure solo in there and it is

 

"Simple"= "Good" = "commercial"

 

If they tried that these days, they would never get signed and you know it

he even quotes Purple haze in that song.

[Guitarzan]

Originally posted by yZeCounsel:

I am just calling it the way I see it, and you can call me delusional if you want, but I get this "Is it really about the music" vibe even locally

 

I had booked this gig at this park in for free just so I could play some off the hook jams and get creative. As soon as I told some of the cats it was for "no money" no one wanted to do it

 

I gave at least 3 months notice about it, and the hours were in the afternoon on a Saturday to where they could've had enough time to break down, eat (or god knows what else), and make it to there "money" gig on Saturday night

 

it's like people don't even wnat to play anymore

 

I understand that I am abrasive at times, but I do not have a reputation for being an asshole in the music scene here to where no one wants to work with me

 

 

It's that people have forgotten why they got into music in the first place

 

Oh, yeah - about the gig . . . I wound up playing by myself so I wouldn't breach a verbal agreement

 

That experience really showed me that people just don't want to play anymore

if i was in your area and was good enough, i would do it. i aint in it for money. i love music and that is why i do it.

but there are people who are only in things for the money.

i am not one of them.

[Hairfarmer]

Wow...What an intense thread.

 

I think it's natural to want success if you're an entertainer, and maybe not so consequintial if you're an artist. Stew on that for a few minutes.

 

Now to address yZe's initial post...profoundly...YES...the search for the grail is rampant in the music that is being pursued, packaged and sold. ALL GENRE's! My oldest son is very entrenched in the music recording and production industry, and he writes to me with great regularity to express his frustration with the "commercialism" of the industry from top to bottom, and how it limits his creativity as a professional engineer. He is also a musician, so he's doubley concerned by what he's learned from the inside, looking out.

 

But, the edge to this topic that I'm surpised nobody has touched on yet relates to the booming Indie label insurgancey that is SO threatening the major labels, that they have resorted to LOBBYING (yes, you heard me right) the FCC toward limiting free enterprise where it relates to the music recording and entertainment industry. My personal belief is that it's too late for the major labels, and that Indie's will eventually put all of the major lables out of business, with the exception of maybe 2 or 3. Virgin's here forever, the others?...eh!...I don't know, it's a toss up. But, the Indie's are the future, make no mistake. And as that fact continues to become more and more relevant in the very near future, I believe there will be endless channels for true artists to get their work played publicaly, and further, I predict that forum to be, free public satellite transmission radio.

 

All that being said, it's also my opinion that the future of true musical creativity is probably looking at the greatest days in mans existance, which in turn spells disaster for commercialism by proxy.

 

Hey...Aside from the obvious of course, does anybody else see the image of a little white dog putting the meat to a bigger brown dog from behind, in Ramps Avatar? . I think I need a nap.

[Dr. Ellwood]

"But, the edge to this topic that I'm surpised nobody has touched on yet relates to the booming Indie label insurgancey that is SO threatening the major labels, that they have resorted to LOBBYING (yes, you heard me right) the FCC toward limiting free enterprise where it relates to the music recording and entertainment industry."

 

Don't be suprised,that's what we have YOU for to point these things out.

[Big Red 67]

OH,...Damn! As Geddy would say.

[Tone Taster]

Originally posted by Hairfarmer:

 

But, the edge to this topic that I'm surpised nobody has touched on yet relates to the booming Indie label insurgancey that is SO threatening the major labels, that they have resorted to LOBBYING (yes, you heard me right) the FCC toward limiting free enterprise where it relates to the music recording and entertainment industry.

However, the other side of that is the Majors started buying out the indies, but retained the indie names so bands would think that they are signing w/an indie, while it was in reality under the umbrella of one of the Big boys

 

Originally posted by Hairfarmer:

My oldest son is very entrenched in the music recording and production industry, and he writes to me with great regularity to express his frustration with the "commercialism" of the industry from top to bottom, and how it limits his creativity as a professional engineer.

See, I'm just delusional and unreasonable, donchaknow

 

 

Anyway, to clarify, I didn't once even imply that making money playing music is bad

 

It's the premise that people say "I'm going to write this way or that way" because it "sounds" commercial

 

I have tunes with sections of metric cycling like 7/8 11/8, 15/16 and I have fellow musicians who say

"You can't reach anybody with that because it has to be in 4/4"

 

Don't tell me that that is an isolated incident either, because it is not. That line of thinking is the result of commercialized brainwashing which has infiltrated the arts, and worse - peope's very souls

 

Ask Pappy, the Greeks have dances in like 13/8

 

7/8 is as common as 4/4 is here

[Hairfarmer]

Originally posted by yZeCounsel:

Originally posted by Hairfarmer:

 

But, the edge to this topic that I'm surpised nobody has touched on yet relates to the booming Indie label insurgancey that is SO threatening the major labels, that they have resorted to LOBBYING (yes, you heard me right) the FCC toward limiting free enterprise where it relates to the music recording and entertainment industry.

However, the other side of that is the Majors started buying out the indies, but retained the indie names so bands would think that they are signing w/an indie, while it was in reality under the umbrella of one of the Big boys.

 

 

(hairfarmer response) This is true, but it was predictable to most. The few Indie's that have sold out thus far were nose-thumbers that only pursued their own labels because they were rejected by a Major somewhere along the way, thereby making them commercialist at heart. In the end, they got what they really wanted all along...a buck. Fools.

 

 

Originally posted by Hairfarmer:

My oldest son is very entrenched in the music recording and production industry, and he writes to me with great regularity to express his frustration with the "commercialism" of the industry from top to bottom, and how it limits his creativity as a professional engineer.

See, I'm just delusional and unreasonable, donchaknow

 

 

Anyway, to clarify, I didn't once even imply that making money playing music is bad

 

It's the premise that people say "I'm going to write this way or that way" because it "sounds" commercial

 

I have tunes with sections of metric cycling like 7/8 11/8, 15/16 and I have fellow musicians who say

"You can't reach anybody with that because it has to be in 4/4"

 

Don't tell me that that is an isolated incident either, because it is not. That line of thinking is the result of commercialized brainwashing which has infiltrated the arts, and worse - peope's very souls

 

Ask Pappy, the Greeks have dances in like 13/8

 

7/8 is as common as 4/4 is here

Don't fret (cool pun) my friend. Dream Theater has zero an arrangement to ever be composed in 4/4, have remained outside the lines of commercialism, yet, have been bestowed with what most would consider to be substantial success. Conversely, none of the members of DT found that same level of success in their solo projects, therefore indicating that the minimal commercial marketing that has been put forth by THEIR label's (Time Warner & Atlantic...ewwwwww...big boys) obviously paid off for them to some degree. But, not like they hoped I'm sure. Let's face it. To a true artist, 7//8 and 13/8 signatures are challenging to score, and intrigueing to listen to, but try head banging to it and you'll throw your back out, I don't care how young you are. On the other end of the spectrum, tempo challenged consumers simply won't purchase something that they can't tap their toes to.

 

Score away my funky friend in whatever funky signatures you want. There will ALWAYS be guys like me that'll buy your funk. Always.

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

Originally posted by yZeCounsel:

It seems that alot of music (even from upcoming unsigned acts) is written with the intention of being commercial.

It sure is. I still remember this guitarist guy that turned up for an audition once.

 

He was actually quite proud of being commercial and formulaic and playing down to his future audience. I still remember his voice saying "ooh, yes. I'm soo commercial!"

 

He taught me a bassline he was going to use in one of his songs. Cool little thing.

 

Pity the guy was so totally The Compleat Prat.

 

For a bit of a cautionary tale... I've already mentioned this in the OT thread but here goes (I don't know how to link to individual posts) ...

 

I was having lunch with a friend yeasterday. He dropped out of IT to go make music videos. It was kinda depressing talking to him.

 

I guessed that most of his work would be eurodance stuff. I started off with "so what are your videos like?" and he replied "Well, Vince... they all have some tart dancing around in chromakey and then we change the backgrounds. I don't know if I've been clear enough on the depth of the artistic endeavour I'm engaged in."

 

He used to get 3000 euro and three weeks to make a video (any old video) and now, because of "the crisis", he only gets 1000. And then people complain that the quality isn't all that. he makes one and a half to two videos a week.

 

But it's such a strange world: neither he nor anyone else he knows in the field are actually into techno. The disco owners like it because it's what's selling... the long and the short of it is that techno's this product that nobody loves but everybody lives off.

 

And it's all made up of looped bits and pieces, so there's no real musicianship involved. If the sample's under two seconds in length, you don't have to pay royalties and that encourages a collage type music with no unifying thread or substance. He also reckons that what's selling these days are mothertongue English vocalists. So it doesn't matter if you can sing or not, just as long as you have the right accent. If you're off key that can be fixed in the studio. He knows a guy from Ghana who's starting to make A Career In Music after being discovered while working as a petrol pump attendant. He can't sing or play or anything, but he's got the right sounding accent.

 

So by "the new rules", the guy from Ghana could be a potential star, whereas Julio Iglesias with all his platinum records wouldn't have much of a chance (well, maybe it's not ALL bad!)

 

I was a bit rueful that my normal workday doesn't involve watching tarts dance but, all in all, my job in IT sounds a lot more dignified.

 

 

It's a cautionary tale simply because there's no real limit to how low you can go for an audience, or to how much you can give up in the process. Even musicianship is no guarantee of anything because there's no point waiting six months for some artist to come up with something memorable when all you want is to sell ringtones today.

 

The people who buy your music to sell it on the radio don't give a toss about "memorable", they expect product to be replaceable in their search for the next big thing. So you'll always be threatened by some guy sitting in his bedroom with a PC.

 

Who do you really think is the bigger star, Vai or The Black Eyed Peas?

[Eric Iverson]

To Yze: there are a lot of us who still DO love to play!

 

We just want to do so in a context that we can enjoy, not dealing with nonsense! Of course, there's always going to be some BS to deal with, from our point of view. Offering to play for free just tells those people, "I think of myself as an amateur." It may be unfair, you might be a genius, you might have played 10,000 paying gigs onstage and in the studio, but there it is!

 

To Hairfarmer: yes I agree, there are many people who record and market their own music, and I say, keep up the good work! I don't think the major labels are in any great danger of going out of business, but there are OTHER ways to make a living and get your music out there.. I say, GO FOR IT! And fight hard against anyone who disputes your right to do so!

 

The major labels are zillionaires, so why are they concerned about the mom-and-pop stores? Yes, indeed, they are, and sometimes use cutthroat tactics to put them out of business...

there seems to be no end to human greed!