Gibson, Epiphone, Gibophone ?

[Ted S]

Hey folks, I've been out of the loop for a while. I understand that Epiphone is a branch of Gibson ? I was in a store yesterday, on one rack were Epi. LP's with a Gibson inscription on the headstock between $500>700, and on aother rack were Gibson LP's for $1200>3500 ?? WTF is that all about ? Can anyone elighten me ?

 

thanks

 

Ted

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

Originally posted by Ted S:

I understand that Epiphone is a branch of Gibson ?

Right so far. Epiphone tends to make cheaper versions of Gibson guitars and basses.

 

Originally posted by Ted S:

I was in a store yesterday, on one rack were Epi. LP's with a Gibson inscription on the headstock between $500>700, and on aother rack were Gibson LP's for $1200>3500 ?? WTF is that all about ? Can anyone elighten me ?

Where was the inscription? If it was on the pastic trussrod cover then it's just a bit of plastic that says "Gibson", to remind buyers about Epiphone's rich relatives.

[rw2003]

The Gibson/Epiphone branding is a bit confusing... As KFIII stated Epiphone is now part of the Gibson family of brands. Most of the Epiphone products are overseas-made versions of the USA-made Gibsons that we all know and love, Les Pauls, SGs, etc. I guess Gibson wanted to get in on the entry to mid-level sales that Fender, Ibanez, etc were making without "diluting" the actual value of the Gibson brand.

 

I think there still are some Epiphone-only models such as the Casino.

 

Funny though, Gibson brand guitars are expensive and their Epiphone counterparts are not "cheap" either. An Epi Les Paul goes for about $600 and their new Elitist series of guitars (which seem to be highly rated by GP mag) are all priced over $1000.

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

Originally posted by rw2003:

Funny though, Gibson brand guitars are expensive and their Epiphone counterparts are not "cheap" either. An Epi Les Paul goes for about $600 and their new Elitist series of guitars (which seem to be highly rated by GP mag) are all priced over $1000.

There are Epiphones and Epiphones. The Elitist series is made in Japan, whereas the cheaper Epis are made in China. I think there's a couple of Korean made lines in there too.

[fantasticsound]

If by "now part of the Gibson family of brands", you mean, since 1957, when Gibson's then parent company, CMI, bought Epi, then yes, it is now part of Gibson.

 

To put it simply...

 

Gibson is now a parent company of its' own. (Since 1984, IIRC.) They own a few brands including Epi. For many years Epi has been a combination of less expensive versions of Gibson products and some original instruments.

 

Gibson guitars are built in the USA in several Nashville, TN factories, and factories in Memphis, TN, and Bozeman, MT. They build electric guitar p'ups for production in Nashville and aftermarket p'ups in Elgin, IL.

 

Epiphone contracts factories in the far east to build virtually all their product. Most are built in Korea, but I understand some are Chinese build now. Their Elitest line is built in Japan from parts made by Gibson in the U.S. and several specialty models, labelled, "Made In USA" are actually built in Nashville from parts made in the Far East. With the exception of the Elitest models, electric guitars use "Gibson designed" p'ups. (Again, manufactured in the Far East under contract.)

 

As for woods, Gibson buys premium woods and drys them itself. Their Maple caps on Les Pauls are physically thicker than those used on Epi instruments. They are clear, however, that all Epi's with figured tops have real wood tops. (Many manufactures use "photo flame" stickers covered by clearcoat to make a "beautiful" figured instrument.)

 

Gibson uses Nitrocellulose laquer finish on virtually every instrument. It's more difficult to use in manufacture and is not near as tough as Polyurethane finishes used by most inexpensive manufacturers (including Epi), but it allows the wood to breathe. They believe this allows the tone woods to resonate more freely, providing a beautiful finish with as little interference in sound creation and projection as possible. Nitrocellulose can be touched up without a full refin, something they claim is not possible with Polyurethane. I tend to believe them as the makers of polyurethane, hardwood floor finishes tell you to lay down each coat on the entire floor otherwise you'll be left with a clear line where you stopped and started again.

 

A note about hardware. Most guitar tuners are made by German companies, so high quality tuners are not "Made In USA" even if the instrument is otherwise labelled as such.

 

Hope that answers most of your questions.

[fantasticsound]

BTW - The Elitest were created in an attempt to bridge the gap between the $500 - $600 Epi's and the $1,600 -$1,700 Gibsons of the same model name. They're built in Japan because of the lower labor cost over the U.S but great quality Japanese builders are known for in relation to other Far East manufacturers.

 

The bridge became more solid by the use of real, Gibson p'ups and electronics.

[rw2003]

Originally posted by fantasticsound:

If by "now part of the Gibson family of brands", you mean, since 1957, when Gibson's then parent company, CMI, bought Epi, then yes, it is now part of Gibson.

While you are correct that CMI bought Epi in '57, its not what I mean. What I'm refering to is the point when the Epi line of guitars went from being primarily their own designs to essentially lower-priced copies of USA-made Gibsons. I guess this would be around the mid-80s when CMI was bought out by Henry Juszkiewicz, David Berryman and Gary Zebrowski.

 

Here's a link to the Epiphone web site that will tell us all more than we need to know about the history of Epiphone, both as its own company and as part of the company that we know as Gibson.

http://www.epiphone.com/history.asp

[Ted S]

Sorry folks, next time I try search first

 

http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/ubb/get_topic/f/19/t/016222.html

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by rw2003:

Originally posted by fantasticsound:

If by "now part of the Gibson family of brands", you mean, since 1957, when Gibson's then parent company, CMI, bought Epi, then yes, it is now part of Gibson.

While you are correct that CMI bought Epi in '57, its not what I mean. What I'm refering to is the point when the Epi line of guitars went from being primarily their own designs to essentially lower-priced copies of USA-made Gibsons. I guess this would be around the mid-80s when CMI was bought out by Henry Juszkiewicz, David Berryman and Gary Zebrowski...

This is incorrect, rw2003. Epi has been building Gibson knockoffs since the early 1960's, not the mid-1980's. Epi Sheratons, Casinos, etc. were knock-offs of the Gibson ES-335 and ES-330's, and there were others. Only in acoustic guitars and cheap electrics did Epi retain its' own identity.

 

In addition, Henry, et. al. did not buy out Gibson from CMI. CMI had sold to Norlin Industries in 1969. Henry & Dave worked for Norlin and bought them out with Gary Zebrowski, but Henry is by far the owner with the biggest stake and sole power of the company. He is Gibson.

 

The Epi link you provide, while it is the company line, does not tell the whole story. It's a Cliff's Notes version at best.[/qb]

[fantasticsound]

double post

[Big Red 67]

I got a really nice Ephi LP Black Beauty. I liked it more then most of the gibsons I played. Just play as many as you can before you buy.

[fantasticsound]

Did you say before you "buy" or "die"??

[rw2003]

Fantastic Sound.. CMI/Norlin/etc. corporate merger/buyout history aside...

 

I agree that those some (maybe most?) of those Epiphones of the 60's and 70s were knockoffs of the more expensive Gibsons, the Epiphone brand still had a strong marketing identity apart from the Gibson brand. (Heck a good portion of guitars made in those days were either Gibsons, Fenders or knockoffs there off!) They retained the Epiphone make, had their own model names, etc. While the guitars may have looked similar, I don't recall that consumers were being led to beleive they were getting a Gibson guitar at a cheaper price by buying an Epiphone.

 

That is not the case now. Since the mid80s, the Epis use the actual Gibson model names and as Ted S. mentioned, even put the Gibson brand on the guitar. While this has helped Gibson sell lots of guitars at the lower price points, it is somewhat confusing to the average customer.

[Dr. Ellwood]

I had a very early Casino and while it was a pretty good playing instrument it could not even come close to my ES335 Dot.

[Hardtail]

I think my dad had a Casino lying around that I used to beat on. This was about 1968, I believe.

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by rw2003:

Fantastic Sound.. CMI/Norlin/etc. corporate merger/buyout history aside...

 

I agree that those some (maybe most?) of those Epiphones of the 60's and 70s were knockoffs of the more expensive Gibsons, the Epiphone brand still had a strong marketing identity apart from the Gibson brand. (Heck a good portion of guitars made in those days were either Gibsons, Fenders or knockoffs there off!) They retained the Epiphone make, had their own model names, etc. While the guitars may have looked similar, I don't recall that consumers were being led to beleive they were getting a Gibson guitar at a cheaper price by buying an Epiphone.

 

That is not the case now. Since the mid80s, the Epis use the actual Gibson model names and as Ted S. mentioned, even put the Gibson brand on the guitar. While this has helped Gibson sell lots of guitars at the lower price points, it is somewhat confusing to the average customer.

It's changed a bit, but I was selling Sheratons and Casinos in 1992. It's only in the last decade that those names have gone by the wayside for 335 derivatives. And Les Paul's have had identical names but it's only in the past 5 years they've put Gibson on the headstock with Epiphone elsewhere. The Epi SG's have always been the G-400 and similar numbers.

 

I can't speak to the marketing in the 1960's and '70's because I wasn't there or old enough to remember, but the information given to me by guys who had been at Gibson for over 20 years when I was there in 2001 was that it was understood that Epiphone was an authorized knockoff of Gibson designs except where they built strange, cheap instruments and in their acoustics. Oddly enough, the connection with the Beatles and the quality build of the 1960's Epi's made Casinos as coveted at the Gibson's they were designed to be cheap knock-offs of.

 

I don't dispute they've grown even closer over the years, but they've always had that relation of Ford/Lincoln, if you know what I mean.

[Dr. Ellwood]

Originally posted by HardTail:

I think my dad had a Casino lying around that I used to beat on. This was about 1968, I believe.

Does he still have it??