cassdad
-
Posts
345 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Blogs
Events
Articles
Downloads
Gallery
Store
Posts posted by cassdad
-
-
54 minutes ago, Tusker said:
You have great responses here. 👍 👍
I would add the question, "how ornate are the bass frequencies?" Do you have drums loops stopping and starting, bass drops and other low frequency ornamentations every 8 or 6 bars? Is your bass instrument melodically active bar to bar? If not, you are overthinking the bass thing because much of the actual music is elsewhere. Let the bottom be wallpaper and let the rest of the music sing. You don't need deep bass to be compelling.
If your bass is a major component of your actual music ... time to consider a sub.
Great input, thanks. My bass parts are indeed “ornate”, and “melodically active bar to bar”. I have a very strong (player-wise) left hand that I try to use to great advantage. And, yes, I certainly have received tremendously valuable responses to my sincere question, very pleased and grateful!
-
1
-
-
1 hour ago, MathOfInsects said:
Come to think of it, this would be the exact right situation for any of the various line-array-plus-sub products ("sound-sticks") out there. A small one with a 10" sub would be easier to cart than the 2 tens, and you'd get all the separation plus bottom end you'd need. Maybe worth looking into for one-man-band gigs.
Yup, I thought the same thing, so some time back purchased, still have, and used 2 (for stereo) Bose L1 Model 2 units. I have since gone to a much lighter and simpler “2 Yamaha DXR-10 powered speakers” because: 1) believe it or not, the sound for digital pianos is MUCH better out of the DXR10 units, 2) I know the hype about how easy they try to make the “sound sticks” concept is to transport…. they are not…. hauling 2 sets of the Bose columns and subs around was way to much work, and 3) not to go off-topic, but when I was playing with a band, the other folks on stage all hated them because they all said all they could hear was me, because the Bose columns distributed sound nearly 180-degrees, whereas everyone else was using speakers pointing forward (below their knees, as many guitarists do), so although the guitarists are screaming loud to the audience, on stage, my Bose was all they heard, ugh. These DXR units have solved that problem.
-
2 hours ago, AnotherScott said:
Also picking up from what cphollis said, there are subs that are noticeably lighter than the 12" Yamaha's 66 lbs. They recently came up in the thread at https://forums.musicplayer.com/topic/180311-bass-amp-for-hammond-clone/
Thank you, AnotherScott (also my name by the way!)…. Lots of sub suggestions there. However, I really don’t want to go that route if I don’t have to, for many reasons (transport vehicle space, stage real estate, old age….)!
-
15 hours ago, Reezekeys said:
Agreed, I want my speakers off the floor. I've posted this pic before. Those are cheap plastic foldable footstools but they do the job.
The problem I have with poles is that the regular ones put the speakers too high for you to hear directly - your sound travels over your head and you could be hearing yourself reflecting off the walls, not great. I've seen references to shorter poles but don't they put the speakers at or close to ear level? That wouldn't work for me. This is the setup I find works best for when I need to provide my sound for me, the band, and the room.
Reezekeys: P.S. I have and use the same short risers (got them at Lowes Home)!
-
16 hours ago, Reezekeys said:
The answer to your question is... imo of course... don't sweat what you can't control. Every room will be different - unless you're the "house band" at a venue and always set up in the same spot.
First of all, I can't imagine setting up my speakers "across the room (opposite the speakers, ie. so that I am facing the speakers)." This makes absolutely no sense to me. To play a keyboard and hear yourself coming from across the room would mess me up big time.
Most rooms have parallel walls, and will reflect sound waves, causing peaks and nulls at certain frequencies. These peaks and nulls can be at different frequencies from each other by simply moving your head a few inches forward, back, or side-to-side. There is no possible way to have your rig sound the same to everyone in the room, frequency-response-wise. It's true as you say that certain speaker placements can accentuate bass frequencies, and it can help to sometimes roll off low end or maybe move the speakers a bit. If you describe the "too-much-bass" sound as "boomy" then I would guess that you're actually referring more to the "mid" bass region of frequencies, around 180 - 400Hz. I notch those frequencies down by a few db at almost every gig, and find it makes the overall sound "clearer" - i.e., I can push my levels more and not get overwhelmed by "too much bass."
As far as how it sounds to you vs the audience, and whether you should knowingly make it sound worse to you so that the audience will hear it "better" - this is one of my few triggers on KC! How the hell can you do a good job and enjoy yourself making music like this? I know this might be beyond the scope of what you're asking about, but imo it really goes to the heart of things. Is it more fulfilling to you to give the audience what you think they want to hear, at the expense of your ultimate enjoyment of playing music? Then by all means, boost your bass (or leave things as they are), and go for it. Not me.
Having said all this, you should certainly use the tools you have - and any knowledge you gain from this thread or elsewhere online! - to try to make things good for yourself and the audience. Maybe it'll be a compromise, but your pleasure doing this thing we call "playing" music should come first (imo)!
So what could you do? Maybe try moving the speakers a bit. How do you usually set them up? Mine are in back of me, on each side of course, angled in slighly, usually around 5 or 6 feet apart, raised off the floor about 8 inches. The horns are below ear level - that way I can push the sound to the bandstand and room without killing my ears. I try to have them no less than ~2 feet in back of me. 3 to 4 feet is better. I've experimented with having them farther apart, and find that gives me a nicer stereo field for stuff like strings and pads, but sometimes the pianos start sounding a bit too "far away" for my comfort.
I'm not familiar with the MOXF8 but it's a Yamaha workstation, correct? Does it not have separate eq units that can be placed on different parts (or whatever they call each section of a multitimbral setup)? I would guess that an eq set up to make a bass drum have a punchy low end might not work for a piano. I always roll off lows on my pianos, especially my virtual rhodes. A simple high-pass filter on the piano might eliminate the "boom" there without sacrificing the low end you want for the bass and bass drum. Does the MOXF8 have a "master" section where you can EQ the entire output? If you find that the speakers sound particularly bassy in a room, that's where I might put the aforementioned notch filter around 180 - 250 Hz, with a relatively large Q and just enough attentuation to lessen the "boom" without making things sound too thin.
What I know from doing many gigs with my laptop rig and QSC K8s is that each room is different, and I often have to slightly tweak my "final" eq settings with that mid-bass notch - move it a few tens of Hz either way and adjust the amount of cut a it. For a while I got very nerdy and programmed a setup on my iPhone using TouchOSC, where I could walk around a room, trigger a sequence I had recorded to play through my rig, and adjust the eq with my phone. I gave it up after a few gigs because I would usually come up with the same or close to the same settings I'd make just sitting at my keyboard. It was good for a few yuks from my fellow musicians though, as I waved my arms from the bar and stealthily tapped the button on my phone to start my sequence playing!
The main point of this novel would be my advice to not sweat this stuff too hard! You will never get things perfect for both you and the audience. Make it right for you at least, then do what you can to help if things really sound way different out in the room, within reason. The other thing to keep in mind is that John and Jane Q. Public are not sound engineers standing around critiquing your eq settings or the sound of your speakers! They don't know or care. I am often reminded of a Frank Zappa quote from his autobiography where he summed up the general public's attitude towards music: "give me a GOOD BEAT - something I can dance to. It has to go boom-bap, boom-boom bap. If it doesn't, I will hate it very, very much." 🙂
Just give 'em that "boom-boom-bap", and good luck!
Thank you, Reezekeys - very informative and greatly appreciated. Re me sitting across the room facing my speakers… that was SOLELY for the purpose of testing, allowing me to hear how it actually sounds compared to the speakers behind me on either side (I set-up identically to the way you do). Although I also agree with you and Frank’s comments about the “general public”, I also feel that, although they don’t know or understand why or any specifics… they DO somehow immediately determine for themselves who “sounds good” to them and who doesn’t. E.g. if the sound is “thin”, they don’t know that, but to them, they know it doesn’t sound as good to them compared to someone else’s sound that is “fuller” and more “punch”. Thanks for your response.
-
1 hour ago, Konnector said:
I'd say that two monitors up on poles + a sub will get the best results. Roll off a little low end on all the other instruments to make room for the bass and kick to punch through.
Although I know this would probably be the best solution, as stated, I can no longer haul a subwoofer. I had one, the matching sub for my DXR’s, the lighter 12-inch version. OMG, just could not cart it around any longer. And, frankly, I did not notice that much of a difference with it. Now maybe with a larger subwoofer, but that is even more out of the question!
-
2 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:
I suppose one option could be to pan the bass and drums to one side, and leave the keyboard sounds in stereo, and then put the "panned" speaker down close to the floor, and the other up off the ground on a low pole or table. Then you'd get your bass coupling for the bottom-end sounds without making your piano sound muddy, and you'd still get the benefit of firing the piano sounds off in stereo.
Interesting concept, I’ll give it a try!
-
1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:
Horizontal vs. vertical shouldn't really affect the amount of bass, except to the extent that horizontal use is usually on the floor and vertical is often on a stand, raised off the floor. Basically, the issue is proximity to boundaries.
Bass can be tricky. First, yes, if you start with more coming out of the speaker, there is the potential for more everywhere else. But second, for very low frequencies in particular, the reflections throughout the room can cause standing waves. In effect, no matter how much bass you crank out, you can still easily end up with areas of the room with lots of bass, and other areas of the room with little (at least at a given frequency), and the areas that do or do not have a lot of bass will *not* directly correspond with how far away they are from the speaker! That said, you did mention that you're using a *pair* of speakers, and that will tend to smooth out the variable of standing waves.
Thank you, good points. Yes, I am using 2 speakers because my keyboard requires stereo to sound good (IMO).
-
1 hour ago, MathOfInsects said:
Can you clarify: are you saying that you are hoping to draw more bass out of the keys because you fear the low-end from the bass player and drummer will not be sufficient? Or is it that everyone is going through your two 10s, including the bassist and the drummer, and you want to make sure they are heard well?
No….. I am playing solo (1-man band). I need the kick drum to have some “kick”, and the bass to be solid, not thin.
-
1
-
-
I have an acoustical question, for those of you knowledgeable of such things, please:
For logistical reasons, for performing, I am using 2 10-inch 2-way powered speakers (Yamaha DXR-10). I understand that placing speakers near a wall, or especially a corner, greatly increases the bass, as does placing the speaker on its side (monitor position). I have experimented and verified both of these points. The increase, in fact, can be quite dramatic, resulting in bass “boominess” at certain frequencies, which can be quite annoying when playing (seated next to or near the speaker cabinets). But is that increase experienced throughout the entire venue, or is it just local (right around the near proximity to the speaker cabinet)?
Since I do not want to carry any larger speakers, nor do I want to haul a subwoofer, when I am playing solo (“one-man band” type of gigs) my goal is to achieve as much bass response as possible out of these small speakers (especially for the accompanying drums and bass when I am using those sounds).
Through experimentation, I have found that I can achieve increased bass response using these techniques (speaker placement). As stated, though, if the allotted venue space requires me to be close to the speaker cabinets - the “boominess” is terrible, very annoying. But if I eliminate the boominess, then I fear I am not going to achieve the bass response for the audience that I feel is required for “full range” sound (ie. the bass and bass drums sounds will be inadequate for the audience sound). Experimenting, when I place my keyboard between (near) the speakers, the bass is annoyingly too much. However, if I keep all settings just the same, but place my piano across the room (opposite the speakers, ie. so that I am facing the speakers), the sound seems to be very balanced (not boomy).
My question is: Can anyone tell me if the boominess experienced close-up to the cabinets does indeed result in better bass response heard by the rest of the venue (who are not close to the speaker cabinet)? In other words, is it worth putting up with the close-up “too much bass” response in order to achieve overall venue adequate bass response from small speakers? (I hope my question is clear.)
Apologies for the length of this post, but I am trying to make my situation and question as clear as possible….
-
Perhaps slightly off-topic, but…. So, reading all these pros and cons re real vs digital, has really solidified in my mind what is important to me (YMMV): Good sound, dependability and remain perfectly in tune. When I’m hired to perform, my rig MUST work properly. Once I have those 3 criteria covered, then I progress onto weight / size, and then features.
I hear very little here about dependability. Maybe nowadays it’s just a “given” (which would be good). But, to me, dependability is a key, critical requirement. That’s why I’ve always stayed with major brands - I feel they could not stay in business if their boards flaked on gigs. Just my 2 cents.
-
3
-
-
15 minutes ago, Bif_ said:
Hammond, Leslie, Acoustic Piano, Rhodes, Clav, Vintage Synth, etc.
As much as I'd love having any of those, I have no practical place I could put them. I've played a real Hammond and know there's nothing like a real Leslie. I ABSOLUTELY love playing acoustic piano, because that's what I was brought up on. Even got to regulary play a 9' Baldwin concert grand all during high school. Love both of these, just no place I could put them.
I also owned a Rhodes, and while I know it is a wonderful instrument, I have no desire to ever own one again. I love the sound but feel I get what I need through emulations without the muss and fuss of upkeep of the real electromechanical beast.
No desire to own an Arp 2600.....played one of those for several years in college music lab. I remember spending hours patching cables and turning knobs but it didn't amaze me. I know so much more about that now that I'm sure it would be a different experience, but again, no real space to put one. Similar thoughts about many vintage boards, care and feeding for most old synths casts fear in me. Crap, I'm even aware that my old Receptor will bite the dust somewhere along the line.
Yeah, I still am drawn to any of these as well as many new boards, but that's all kept in check by limited space to put them. I also keep coming back to the fact that I really have an overabundance of gear to actually make music, I just need to sit down and do that.
I agree with all of this, plus the fact that my digital piano is ALWAYS perfectly in tune. And I absolutely hate playing an out-of-tune instrument. The acoustic piano I learned on as a kid was always out of tune. Once I played my 1st digital, the world of music opened up for me, not only hearing what simple chords should sound like, but also what more complex chords and voicings were possible. That was all a moot point on a badly out-of-tune acoustic piano. YMMV.
-
I also love ForScore, it’s the best thing since sliced bread. It has changed my live playing (for the better). Just FYI.
-
In the old days, I used to use a MIDI merge box. Worked great. Just FYI.
-
This is something I really don't understand. There are lots of bands in my area looking for keyboard players. When they send me a set list, almost none of the songs have keyboards, especially the 90s bands.
-dj
Same here. However, in all fairness, if they've been playing without a keyboard, then they've been forced to "use what they have" thus focusing on guitar-centric songs. Sad, because as WE all know, the best songs feature keyboards! :-)
-
Wow - I"m using ForScore (love it!), but did not know it did that! I"m using it on a new iPad Pro - I also would like to know how to get the MIDI message to my Yamaha MOXF8. What cables go where?
-
I need to gig at a venue where I"ll be playing digital piano outside using my portable mixer (Yamaha MG10XU) sending signal to 2 Yamaha DXR10s, still leaving extra analog line outs (as well as the USB port, FWIW). We"d like to expand my live sound to also go through the venue speaker (Sonos) system so that my playing would be heard throughout the venue (inside and farther away outside). The MG10XU is not WiFi enabled. I"m told the venue uses their cell phone (e.g. Pandora) via WiFi to play music through the venue speakers/sound system.
Does anyone know of a relatively inexpensive way for me to wirelessly send my stereo performance signal (over the venue Wifi network?) to the house system? Is there a relatively inexpensive 'box' I can plug my analog mixer outs into that will broadcast to the house network?
-
Yes, it's true (just simply the way the switches are wired). But, in my humble opinion, it sounds like crap (in mono). Stereo samples played in mono just simply do not sound good. I've had some folks with more expertise than I have tell me it's because of "comb filtering" - wherein when 2 channels are mixed together, some frequencies are exaggerated and others fight each other, even sometimes canceling some signals / frequencies out. Which is exactly what you do NOT want to do with a piano sound. Just my 2 cents.
-
Adin hit the nail on the head: When younger, I had plenty of energy and strength to haul gear as needed. Now I have more money than energy, thus can afford redundancy = allowing multiple sets of equipment wherever needed to minimize hauling equipment.
-
Thank you, midinut!
-
My buddies & myself (who live outside of Texas) want to visit Austin, Texas, for the good live music. They claim Texas never shut-down music, and is currently open for business regarding live music. Can I please hear from any of you musicians who play live in Texas (especially Austin): Is live music alive and well in Austin, Texas?
-
$650 to replace a meh keybed on a $2000 board???
Could of bought a used one for a little more and had lots of spare parts for future repairs.
I know, point taken. But chances are the used one would have the same problem as the existing one. I basically got a new MOXF8 for $650, which was not happening used. I know, silly perhaps. But I really like this particular keyboard. I understand its "meh" for you. But it's nearly perfect for me (when the keys are tight and quiet). It "fits" me, and my requirements, particularly well. That's why I have 3 of them.
-
Interesting thread. But one thing keeps going through my head: All this talk about how streaming can't compete with the live concert, etc.... Heck, I remember being a kid, sitting in my room listening for hours on end to vinyl recordings.... and they did not even have any video! Assuming reasonable quality, streaming at the least should be able to compare to a recording - which most already spend many hours listening to. At one time in my life, I used to spend WAY more money on recordings than I did on live performances. It was another much different time, I know. But I can't help but think that streaming, in many ways, could be at least as good as listening to a recording.... and, at best, could at some point be even better than all the negatives of going to a live concert. Just my thoughts.
-
Apologies, I'd forgotten about this thread. Just to close the loop - I did take it to the local Authorized Yamaha repair shop. $650 later, they replaced the entire keybed. It's been wonderfully quiet, and silky smooth to play for many months now, but is starting to get noisy and "clickety" again..... ugh. I guess that's the price of having a weighted-action 88 note keyboard that weighs only 32 pounds.
SPEAKER PLACEMENT - ACOUSTIC QUESTION
in The Keyboard Corner
Posted
Mostly smaller venues. My DXR-10 cabs cannot handle large venues either - for large venues I would need an entirely different system anyways. I agree, venue size is a key factor.