GRollins

I brought up the B3 because it's got more open space on top for extra hardware. Perhaps a Leslie would be a better choice. Most keyboards today have lots of buttons, knobs, sliders, and aren't level; then you add Velcro, which makes a gummy mess over time. Can the problems be solved? Of course. But it adds to the fiddle factor and cost. It's interesting that some people here seem to disregard the cost, while others thinks it's a pertinent issue. Whether the Genos represents good value at its price is a separate, but related issue. Some can, no doubt, afford it, but may not feel that it's worth it. I don't have an opinion as to value, but the cost would be prohibitive for me. Grey

pjd, Thanks for the link. I've got it loading in another tab and will take a look at it shortly. 'Running riot?' Hmmm. Actually, in the month I've been here, I've seen several posts from members who have specifically mentioned the possibility of theft in exactly this context. As for cable locks and hardened hardware, I just retired from 30+ years in IT, so you might say that I'm aware of the stuff. Cable locks depend, by definition, on having something to tie to, which is not always going to be convenient. I guess you could drill holes in your B3, but then the resale value drops. Bummer, that. Add to that the posts that show up every day or two about having lost some item or other at a gig or practice. Granted, losing the cable wouldn't be a show stopper the way a dedicated signal cable would, so the show would go on. Hardened PCs add to the cost of the software/PC system, further tilting the scales in terms of cost. They also start getting heavier and bulkier, again tilting the scales. Different people will make choices based on their perception of cost/benefit ratios. Road use problems, whether reliability or security-based, are academic for me. All my stuff is at home and likely to remain so. Okay, I suppose that I could--maybe should--worry about theft or fire or earthquakes or flooding but still, others here have raised exactly these points, and recently, at that. And cost and weight are always at the forefront of peoples' minds, well, some of them...the cost aspect seems to be a running subtext in this thread for a few members. I know it would be for me. Grey

Seems that we may have a communication breakdown in progress. I'm not part of any argument or debate with anyone. What I was referring to was the succession of posts from others with divergent views as to what an arranger is and how it differs from other classifications of keyboards. If I'm reading those posts correctly, there's no clear consensus as to what defines an arranger. It seems that it's all very murky...and not just to me. And, no, I haven't played one. Never even seen one. Stuff like that simply doesn't exist in my neck of the woods. Low income area. I'm just trying to peer through the fog to understand the concept. Grey

Oh, I don't doubt that the software approach is here to stay--it's just that it's so bloody finicky and if you want a lot of decent voices (not to mention the hardware) you're going to spend at least as much, if not more, than a used Korg or Yamaha rack. I suspect, but can't (read: don't want to) prove, that rack units are more physically robust than laptops, etc. Plus, I imagine that people are more likely to steal a PC/laptop/tablet/etc. than a dedicated rack unit. The XS rack piano sounds lag behind the Kronos (though not as bad as I feared), so I use the Kronos for that, but there are some pretty massive pipe organs and interesting bell sounds (I don't claim that the bells are natural, per se, only that they're cool--bells are just weird to begin with). The thing's got somewhere around 1200 voices. A lot are redundant, given that both the MM8 and Kronos have plenty of bread and butter stuff. For instance, I'm hip deep in Hammond voices and have the A-100, too. The thing I didn't see coming was the pipe organs. Hadn't really thought about it. But there they are and they are good. I'm still working my way through the banks, making notes as to what I might be interested in working with. It's got a butt-load of electric bass voices, but I don't need 'em. If I want a bass lick, I'll do it myself. Ditto for guitars. Might be useful for someone else, though. Grey

Time for me to 'fess up. I went and did a bad thing. Bought a Yamaha Motif XS rack unit. There are some voices on there that are dated, perhaps--but there are others that I'm really digging right now, things that aren't on my Kronos. And it worked first time. Plugged in the cables. Poof. Music came out. Just like magic. None of that fiddly bullshit that I was facing, trying to wrestle with buffer sizes and ports and latency and compatibility problems. Still haven't gotten the software-on-a-PC thing to do anything useful, yet the rack unit worked perfectly, first time. Boom. Instant gratification. Highly recommended for those hunting new tones. Tell 'em Grey sent you. Grey

Holy smokes, guys, I didn't mean to start an argument...uh, debate as to what an arranger is. (But given that there seems to be some difference of opinion, perhaps I'm not the only one who views the Genos with a raised eyebrow.) Grey

Yeah, it's been a crazy year for me and keyboards. My wife is marvelously tolerant, but that doesn't mean that I want to push matters. And then there's the fact that I've got more keyboards than a guy of my current keyboard abilities deserves. I'm going to take it down a notch or two before I end up with a Rick Wakeman-sized array of machinery. Grey

Just in the relatively short time that I've been here, I've seen at least three or four posts from people saying they were going to wait for the next thing. (And I don't read every thread, so there are likely more.) It's no stretch to think that that same line of reasoning would also apply to the Montage. I don't see any reason that it should uniquely be immune to people wanting the most recent, up-to-date version, even if it means waiting. If nothing else, it gives them more time to save up cash. But, hell, what do I know? I can't wrap my head around the differences between an arranger vs. a workstation vs. a synth. vs. a garden variety keyboard. Grey

Okay, now you've looped back around to part of what I was clumsily attempting to say above. They just released the Montage--well, okay, last year, I think, but still, and now they throw the Genos into the mix. Seems that would to some extent invalidate the voices in the Montage, as savvy players would now wait for the Montage 2.0, i.e. the "trickle down" version. In that sense, the Genos will...not cannibalize, but maybe suppress the Montage sales, if you follow what I'm saying, as people wait for the inevitable upgrade. Grey

C'est moi. Grey

Has anyone ever profiled these home players? I am thinking they may be retired with tons of disposable income , thus dropping cash on this board. If we look at the home organs sold in the mall back in the day the price they sold for with inflation would be comparable to the Genos today? Funny you should mention that, but after I got my A-100 (technically a home organ, as I understand it), and given that it included the original receipt, we ran the price through one of those online adjust-for-inflation calculators. If I recall correctly, the inflation-adjusted price for a 1962 Hammond A-100 in today's dollars would be something on the order of $20,000. YIKES! Man, if that don't make your tenders shrivel you're a braver man than I am, Gunga Din. Grey

That group would most certainly include me and since I don't have all that much money, it's clear that I have no sense at all. Sort of non-sense, so to speak. Grey

He's got more than those. I just can't remember what all he's got. He, unlike me (and certain others), can actually play. Grey

Why the hell would anyone want a self-playing Les Paul? That kinda defeats the purpose of "playing" music--you'd lose the human element. Yes, I'm fully aware that people do exactly that with keyboards, and it's sterile. Yuk. We're already surrounded by plastic music; don't need more, thank you very much. I'm not interested in someone's ability to program. I'm interested in their ability to compose and play. Or as someone here's signature says, "Pressing play ain't playing." Or words to that effect. I think I'm in the 90% misunderstanding category, perhaps 100%. Full disclosure: I may have to program one of my devices and "press play," but only because I can conceive keyboard parts that are currently beyond my ability to play. BUT...the whole thing disgusts me on a moral level, so I keep trying to find the time to practice so that I can actually learn to play what I hear in my head. Given that I'm up to my butt in alligators, getting the time is a booger, but in my favor is the fact that I don't mind the "P-word." To me, practice is not drudgery as long as I'm playing something that I want to play. Grey

pjd, I confess that your explanation seems to fall into the distinction without a difference category. Arranger? Workstation? Synth? Keyboard? I'm not fussing at you, it's just that...the objective is to make music, so...you make music. I looked at a Youtube vid about Rick Wakeman's gear. He's got two Korgs, two Rolands, two Moogs, one Yamaha Montage. No Tyros. If the Genos/Tyros is targeted at performance, I'd assume he'd go that route. Come to think of it, I'm not sure I remember seeing all that many Tyros critters out there on the road with anyone. It's as though the Gibson Les Paul was considered a "studio" guitar (it's not) and the SG a "stage" guitar (it's not either). People play them at home, on stage, wherever they want. There's no artificial distinction between them in terms of category. Same for basses. I don't claim expertise in the percussion realm, but I'm not aware of studio/home/stage drums...they're all just...drums. Maybe I really did take a wrong turn when I ended up in keyboard land. This is pretty weird, at least to me. Grey

Because I'm a simple-minded guitar/bass kinda dude, can someone clarify the difference between the Genos and the Montage? I thought the Montage was the new be-all, end-all, and now this thing comes along. Are they for different applications? Is this the new top o' the line, replacing the Montage? The Montage is expensive enough, and yet this one's even more. What's this thing bring to the table that the Montage ain't already got (aside from more money for fewer keys, vis a vis the Montage 88)? Grey

I got divorced in '89, I think it was. The punchline? I still get occasional calls from bill collectors wanting payment for bills that my ex is running up. Tough toenails, bub...I had a wife-ectomy 27 years ago. She's not my problem. She's your problem and you're welcome to her. Best wishes going forward. Grey

It said something like that in the manual, but for the life of me, I can't find it now to verify. Grey

I'm in the "getting used to it" phase, myself. All I've done so far is clean (apparently someone in the seller's household was a very heavy smoker) and lube mine. Besides one or more drivers being in poor condition, I'm not aware of any problems. Other than lubrication and possible tube replacement (my kids were kind enough to destroy my tube tester), are there any other maintenance items I should attend to? Grey

Run for the hills--I'm known for long posts and this one will be no exception. Them what's got older eyes (like me), might want to go get your readin' specs. Oddly enough, I've been running in parallel with this thread, almost to the day...just didn't have the thread as a reference, as I just became a member yesterday. Some random points to add: 1) I bought an A-100 in splendid condition off of Craig's List for [redacted--an embarrassingly low price], but needed to get it home. Money is an object with me. I was born with Scottish ancestry and had a relapse at age twelve. I'd rather save the money paid to movers (who might very well bash the thing around, anyway) for buying more gear. Checked into U-Haul trucks and trailers, looking for a lower deck than the bed in my Tacoma. No dice. Their "low decks" are about the same as my pickup. Add Tacoma to the checklist for moving day. 2) Clearly needed a dolly of some sort. Roll-Or-Kari? I wish. I don't know anyone who has such a thing and they cost more than I paid for the organ. Non-starter of an idea. What I do have, however, is a willingness to build or adapt things. I cut a piece of 1/2" scrap plywood to a little larger than the dimensions of the base of the A-100. I screwed 2" x 4" braces to the perimeter of the plywood, then took 3" casters off a dolly I made years ago for a bass cabinet and bolted them to the corners. Instant dolly for zero outlay. Add dolly to the checklist. 3) After searching high and low on the Interwebz for the weight of an A-100, I ended up more confused than enlightened. I saw figures anywhere from 220# to over 400#. Screw it. Removed the pedals and carried them and the bench out to the truck. Lifted one end experimentally. Hmmm...not filled with helium, but not too bad. I'd guess somewhere in the 100-150# range for one end. So, I lifted my end and had the fella I was buying it from slide my dolly under that end. Then I lifted my end again and had my wife and the seller lift the other end together. One of my kids slid the dolly into place. Perfect. (Note: I'm in decent shape, but not a weight lifter and I'm going to be 60 in a little over a week, so this is doable for the average person.) 3) The thing rolled easily on their hardwood floor (no carpet--yay!). The threshold at the front door had to be dealt with by lifting one end, then the other over the bump. Done. 4) There were four or five steps down to their front walk (concrete--yay!). My wife had borrowed an aluminum ramp from work, which saved me from having to spring for ramp rental from Home Depot. It's an 8' ramp and I was concerned about the slope, but it wasn't anywhere near as bad as I feared. I took the entire load without a problem. I wasted more energy worrying than I did getting it down the ramp. (Concrete driveway, too--yay!) 5) Reversed the process to get it up in the truck bed. Again...doable. 6) WARNING: This is what I had not foreseen...the bottom of a Toyota Tacoma has a corrugated bed. The spacing of the corrugations was just a little wider than the spacing of the wheels on my dolly, causing them to splay outwards a little. Hmmm...file this under the "devil's in the details." I'll cut this short by saying that the dolly (and the A-100) survived. 7) Lashed the organ to the truck (yes, I had locked the tone generator) with the organ still on the dolly. 8) Drove all the way across town at reduced speed in rush hour traffic. Pissed off a few people. Apologies to all concerned. 9) Getting the organ in the house was a little more difficult. My driveway is gravel and partly washed out. A couple of old 2" x 12" boards provided a smooth surface for the dolly, and the ramp got the organ in the house. 10) All said, I got a 9/10 condition A-100 home still in 9/10 condition. Cost: nothing that I hadn't already spent plus gas. What I don't have is a Leslie, so I'm on the internal speakers. One or more are blown, but it's not noticeable until I hit the pedals. I haven't stopped to mess with them yet. What no one has said so far is that the reverb circuit feeds a dedicated single 12" driver on the right. The two 12" drivers for the dry signal are on the left. As you play, then release a note, there is an obvious physical displacement of the signal as the dry channel stops and the sound moves to the right reverb speaker. Freaky cool effect. Almost stereo. So...a week later, a Kronos comes up, but I'll leave that story for later... Grey