Nathanael_I

This is not my experience. Pianoteq is certainly space saving. It improves with every release. It is very responsive to playing nuance. But it is not close to what the VSL Synchron library offers in terms of sound (or the Ravenscraft, Keyscape, etc). If you spend a lot of time recording pianos, the model just doesn't sound real. If you only play Pianoteq, it is very satisfying. But it will take a bit more for the model to really catch up to the samples.

So to test this, I took the USB cable off the composing rig and pulled it over to the Nord Grand and loaded up the Synchron Steinway. Oh my. It's the best virtual piano experience I've ever had. I thought I liked this sample played on the VAX77.... This is a different league. With the studio monitors turned up to acoustic piano levels, it is just glorious. The Steinway they sampled is, of course, a better piano than the Kawai RX-7 that I own. This is clearly evident in the sound. It sounds the way a concert grand should - effortless easy bass, and bright sparkling top end. Perhaps if I worked with my tuner to really get the unisons perfect I could get in the ballpark, but this is a superior recorded sound to be sure. I won't be getting rid of the RX-7, obviously. But the Nord Grand controlling the Synchron Steinway is a fantastic experience. It certainly feels as nuanced as playing on my RX-7. I am quite confident this could be recorded onto an album and no one would know. It is very, very good. (and I am picky about recorded piano tone) When played with the surround speakers and samples on, it is even better. At acoustic piano volumes, it is not only a better piano, it is a better room than my piano is in! A rich and rewarding playing environment. So, I don't know that I'll have much more to write about this. The Kawai action in the Nord Grand is an exceptional bit of kit - it is the best portable action I've played and is in the range of a good grand piano action for how it feels and how subtly one can play. Nord have built it into a premium instrument that is as portable as any other premium stage piano at ~40 lbs. The internal sounds are adequate for many purposes. But if you ignore them, and connect instead to state-of-the-art samples, it supports a completely different experience. This is a very expressive keyboard mechanism, and with the triple pedal, it is capable of shocking realism when paired with superlative samples and quality speakers/amplification. Of course, all these additions cost much more than the keyboard itself. But that is the way it works. No one puts 266GB pianos into portable keyboards. But my experience demonstrates that if you are willing to pay a premium to get the best portable action in an elegant package and simply use it as a piano keyboard with a MIDI out, the results can be stunning. We live in great times. If this instrument is interesting to you, definitely play one. The action and playability are worth the premium if you care about such things.

Yes. I think the L/M/S samples are solving a problem that I don't have, or at least don't want to have. The piano is a very complex instrument, and it is difficult to sample it well. From a sampling perspective, there is not really a way to make small instruments that capture what a grand piano can do. I've explored sampling my Kawai, and the samples become more and more alive the more detail is added. Skipping keys (say minor 3rds) really flattens the sound of the instrument. Recording ~20 velocity layers per note opens up the resulting instrument wonderfully, and allows one to capture the lightest touch that will produce a sound to thundering away. It isn't surprising, but my experience is that more sample data is better. The deeper the sampling, the more connected the playing experience feels. There is probably some upper limit, but this is a case that generally more data is more realism. I would prefer to have one truly excellent piano sample than a whole bunch of different ones at lower quality, but I can accept that this isn't Nord's market, and that there is usefulness in being able to change the sound. But to consider what state-of-the-art brings, lets think about what the Vienna Symphonic Library accomplished last year. VSL took this to extremes with the Synchron Steinway D-274. They built a robotic finger that could generate over 100 different velocity levels, and they sampled the piano at .5dB increments, measured acousticaly. This is better than any human can play consistently. I can generate about 50dB of dynamic range sampling my piano. This is honestly more dynamic range than is useful. This involves making the smallest possible sound - just barely triggering the hammer, with the una corda pedal down, to the loudest possible sound I can make with the sustain pedal down. Even fussy classical recordings don't usually have more than 35dB of dynamic range. So VSL created a system that can FULLY sample the piano across its entire acoustic envelope. In practice, most playing doesn't need anywhere near 50dB of range to record on my RX-7. It is also true that no live playing situation including solo piano would need 50dB of dynamic range. But it does illustrate just how capable an acoustic grand piano is and why they are so difficult to sample with excellence. To really get at the lower shadings of an acoustic grand instrument, sampling the una corda pedal extensively is required. In addition to the extreme dynamic range in the samples themselves, VSL also recorded extreme dynamics for the release velocities and pedal noises. The dampers do sound different released fast or slow, and they put all this into the samples as well. So the fact that it feels natural to play is not an accident - the sample data contains as complete an envelope of what the instrument is acoustically capable of as has been done to date. Whether one likes Steinway pianos or this particular one is a separate issue. I do believe that they have set the mark of technical excellence with this instrument. No one has sampled a piano this extensively before and released it as a product for sale. This is a huge amount of data. It took VSL several years to do this project. I have no expectation that Nord would do this. That's not my point. My point is to illustrate just how much work and space it takes to truly capture the nuance of an acoustic concert grand piano and why hardware instruments often have such variable playing connection. They mostly just lack sample data, even if they have the best physical mechanisms. What the hardware manufacturers do to fool the hand and ear with vastly reduced data sets is impressive engineering. Figuring out what to leave out and how to compensate for it is their art. We can't exactly know from what VSL publishes, but accounting for the various mic positions and pedal positions, I'm estimating that the finished instrument is around 60 velocity layers per key on average, with all pedals fully sampled at every dynamic. They say up to 100 per note, so they likely put more detail into the most played areas, which is an entirely sensible decision. The top keys just don't say as much as middle-C tonally or musically. The installed library is 266GB in size at 48khz with all the mic positions. With a more basic set of stereo mic positions, it is 118GB, so this is not going to fit in RAM easily. But streamed from SSD? This is not a lot of cost ($50-80 on Amazon for a 512GB SSD at retail price). We may not see anyone put that kind of resources into a portable keyboard instrument. As long as the hardware manufacturers keep making better and better physical interfaces, thankfully we can sort the software side on our own. But we appear to live in a world that you can't have the best action and the best sample without some personal integration.

As I continue to learn the instrument, I am very pleased with the action. The action is better than the Nord Piano Library samples can demonstrate. Using a MIDI monitor, it is quite possible to play MIDI values in the teens consistently and evenly. Playing my RX7 this softly has significant timbre implications. The tone softens as well as diminishing in volume. On the RX-7, pp is a distinctly different timbre than p. The Nord samples pretty much start at an mp timbre and go up. The lower timbral layers are just not in the sample, and the brightness is accentuated by the very close mic positions used. To get softer, the sostenuto pedal brings it down, and one can use the EQ to soften it more, but it still isn't quite the same as having sample data. The Nord samples seem optimized for modern genre's where the softest layers really aren't needed. The piano gets very bright and loud in the upper layers and it is clearly optimized with more detail in the upper end than the lower end of the velocity range. This is likely the right choice, but it does again point out where they've saved sample space by under-sampling the instrument. So, I turned off the Nord piano section, and loaded up Keyscape and the Yamaha C7 sample it features. I turned off all the effects and EQ so it was just the raw sample and a little reverb. Now the lower layers were all present, and the timbral variations one expects from low velocity playing were all present. I switched over to Pianoteq, and the same thing - soft playing had all the color shifts expected. It's MIDI monitor confirmed that I was playing under 25 consistently, and able to make accents in the 30 range easily. Now, I don't practice to make a MIDI monitor behave - but having control at lower velocities is what you get out of a big grand AND an excellent digital piano action. Control at lower velocities is what I find missing on budget weighted actions. This is of no concern for banging out rock and roll, but for more acoustic work, there is a lot of nuance and expression down there. So, that's why I say that the action is better than the Nord Piano library - the instrument is more expressive than its own samples can demonstrate. Changing to other grand piano samples on the Nord can also shift the timbre, but there's no one sample that covers the tonal range of my RX-7. The big software pianos fill this in, however. So in the context of a laptop rig, this Nord Grand is a wonderful controller keyboard for large libraries. Interestingly, the Yamaha P-515 sample doesn't have this limitation - it has samples for the lower layers and gets softer as expected. It doesn't have as good an action feel in an absolute sense, but it is a more complete instrument where internal sounds are concerned. That CFX sample is definitely better than anything in the Nord library. I haven't loaded the VSL Synchron Steinway onto my laptop, but I may connect the Nord Grand up to the composing rig just to play that sample. I suspect it is a delightful experience. That sample is amazingly realistic and expressive. (It is also massive).

I posted a few weeks ago while making the decision about whether to go with a laptop-based rig, or a workstation based rig. I settled on a laptop based rig, as you can see in the picture. I wanted a weighted piano action on bottom and something for synth on top. I didn't have an 88 note weighted board in the arsenal, so I purchased the Nord Grand for that duty. (Notes in the appropriate thread). I pulled the VAX77 off my composing desk as it is perfect for synths. It has a lightweight action that is loads better than any typical synth action, AND it has poly-AT. I've had this a number of years. The fact that it folds in half for transport always amazes bandmates. I love that it ends on A like a piano, and not E or F like a lot of 76/73 note boards. My OB-6 because: 1) it sounds great, 2) is super easy to manipulate live, and 3) it is very compact. So, while most sounds come from the computer, I have fat analog Oberheim-filter goodness in the OB-6 and piano sounds in the Nord Grand. If I need a smaller rig, I can take the Nord Grand alone, or Nord + OB-6. On the MBP, I have all the everything... Omnisphere, Falcon, the U-He stuff, Ravenscroft piano, VB3-II, etc. Its a wealth of excellence and sounds great. The SKB 3RU rack on the floor has my RME UCX, a Furman power conditioner and a USB-3 hub in it, along with power for my MacBook Pro. The stand is made from Gibraltar parts. I use their rack system for my drum set, and keyboard stands. The stand is set up for seated playing, and is rock solid. The Nord Grand is as stable as my RX-7 acoustic grand. Nothing moves. Release a couple clamps and it splits into two flat sections for easy transport. Memory locks mean that it always goes back together EXACTLY the same. In use, the Nord Grand is wonderful in this rig. If I deselect the piano section, it no longer puts out sound, but does send MIDI. So, I can have a pad sound from the computer and flick the piano on and off with a button. Nice. Layers and splits are all done in Gig Performer on the MBP. The keyboards are just keyboards. I may add some faders or knobs via USB, but this is the core rig. I am very happy to have a dedicated live rig that doesn't involve pulling stuff off desks and stands in the studio. This way I can practice specifically on the configuration that I will use out of the studio.

Well, it has been a good keyboard week... A Nord Grand for the live rig, and a Yamaha P-515 for the composing rig.... I've put details in the appropriate threads per each instrument, but am happy with both for their intended purpose. (and I wouldn't switch their roles now that I have them).

I wonder how much of a factor the lack of aftertouch might be. I think you have this right. Also, on an acoustic piano, the keys bottom on the wooden keybed. In the Nord Grand, there is no damping material to make the keyboard quieter. So the keys bottom in a way that is very much like an acoustic piano. The Yamaha P-515, for instance, plays almost silently. But the key at the bottom feels "padded". It is. And that doesn't feel the same as an acoustic piano. So, I think aftertouch strips and attempts to quiet the acoustic noises of a hammer action all contribute to feeling less like an acoustic piano.

My P-515 arrived today. I purchased it to be the "desk keyboard" for my composing rig. I had been using an Infinite Response VAX-77 for the last several years. But I recently moved the VAX to my live rig as it's poly-AT and lightweight action are perfect for controlling synths. So, I needed to get something to work with Nuendo and Dorico. On the desk, having a flat, knob free top is important because I have a touchscreen, mousepad, keyboard, fader box, etc that all need a place. The VAX-77 has a perfectly flat, unadorned top, and so was perfect. Looking at the P-515 pictures, the top is flat, with a few buttons. I'll never really use the buttons, but if was easy to see that I could set up a flat board pretty easily to create a seamless surface for all the composing accouterments. Much of the need at my composing desk is just for all 88 notes. When working on anything except piano, there's no need for this many keys, except the key-switches for articulations are always at the extremes of the keyboard to stay out of the playing range of a given instrument. But, since piano is my favorite keyboard, it made sense to get something that feels right. I have an optical rail in my Kawai RX-7, so if I really want to capture piano, I can play the real thing and record audio and MIDI together. So ultimately it doesn't HAVE to be excellent - I just prefer it. I owned a P-85 back 15 years ago or so, and have generally been pleased with Yamaha weighted actions, so, given the positive reviews here, it seemed to be a risk-free proposition to try one for the composing rig. For me, this keyboard will be used almost exclusively for its MIDI output. So what I want is for it to be able to give a full range response, and to be usefully playable at low MIDI velocities. The composing rig has massive 100GB+ piano libraries, so the inbuilt sounds are a novelty more than a necessity. It turns out that there are NO high quality controllers on the market if you want excellent piano action. You have to buy digital pianos or stage pianos and just ignore the built in stuff. And you have to buy the best units to get the best haptics. Once you accept this, and that there are no premium actions under 40lbs, the market thins appreciably. Decide that you really don't prefer Fatar actions, and it is down to a few manufacturers, and a few models each. If anyone is following the Nord Grand thread, you will know that I just purchased one of those to anchor the live rig. So that will be the primary point of comparison, along with my Kawai RX-7 grand. Action/Touch/Feel. The Nord Grand is almost indistinguishable from the RX-7. Its action is impeccable and plays like a real piano. The key dip, how they feel at the bottom, the sound of them hitting bottom, etc. are all just like the real thing. The P-515 is a weighted controller action. It is a bit "padded" at the bottom, not firm like an acoustic piano or the Nord Grand. The keys definitely have more friction than either my RX-7 or the Nord Grand. They are not anywhere near as fast-feeling as the RX-7 or Nord Grand. This doesn't mean you can't play fast, but the keys are a weighted action feel- they don't say "I'm the real thing". I can play as fast on the P-515 - I don't mean it gets in the way. It just doesn't "feel" fast and "out of the way". The action feels heavier and with more friction than the Nord Grand. The Nord Grand is over twice as expensive. And you get something for that $$ where action is concerned. I believe the Nord Grand's Kawai action is significantly superior if accuracy to the real article is desired. That said, the action on the P-515 is wonderfully expressive. The finger-to-ear on the CFX sample is quite nice. It is easy to play controllably at soft dynamics. This is a fine digital piano, and for $1500 a great bargain. You won't find any uprights that have this good an action or that sound as nice as the CFX sample! Both digital pianos will reveal sloppy finger technique. The P515 action is almost silent acoustically. I suspect the damping is what causes it to feel slower. If truly silent practice is important, the P-515 should be a contender it is remarkably quiet. The Nord Grand has a sound as the keys bottom that is pretty much like the thunk of the real thing. It is NOT silent (it also has a small fan that you can hear in a quiet studio). This is obviously unimportant on a stage, but perhaps important in other venues. The other thing that should be mentioned about the P-515 is that if you are playing through the speakers, and have the volume up enough to create a sensation of being at an instrument, you feel the vibration through the keys, just like on a real piano. That definitely helps the "getting lost in the instrument" feeling. The Nord, lacking speakers, cannot do this. In terms of the feel of the keys, the Nord Grand has nicer keys. They are smoother, and the edges of the keys are more rounded - nothing feels like a ridge or an edge. You notice this on a thumb glissando. It's much smoother on the Nord Grand - the keys just don't have as much "edge" to them. Now, neither are waterfall keys, and you won't want to play organ on either. But the keys are higher quality on the Nord Grand and feel better under finger- again, doubling the price purchases something additional. The sounds. The CFX sample is quite nice. It is better than any of the samples in the Nord Piano Library from a technical perspective. I would be thrilled to have this sample in the Nord Grand as the default sound. I much prefer it over the Bosendorfer sample also included in the P515. Like Dave Ferris has expressed in other threads, I also prefer the newer "VC" pianos from Bosendorfer to any of their "classic" models. So, I think it would be nice if they would sample a 280VC instead of the Imperial. I didn't play any of the other sounds as I will likely never have a use for them since the keyboard is connected to a few terabytes of top shelf samples. I can see occasionally using the CFX, but the audio output of this keyboard will not be plugged into the studio - just the MIDI. So I won't give any long review here, but the CFX is quite nice. There are plenty of audio examples online if that is what you want to know. The keyboard action is very well tuned to this sample, and it is well done enough that any flaws in playing or key technique sound the way they do on the RX-7. The action/sample combination is capable of musical nuance and expression. A good pianist will sound better on this board than a poor one (and not just because of playing more notes) in terms of tone and tone production. These digital pianos have come a long way. I suspect a student could go quite far before "needing" to be on an acoustic grand if these premium actions are involved. The speakers. They really do help suspend disbelief. I have very nice studio monitors and PA speakers that far eclipse what is built in. But the in-built speakers do create a near-field sensation of playing an instrument. Many happy hours of practice could result. If the P-515 lacked speakers, I wouldn't care. But as I suspected, I can see using them for quick things, or to run very quiet exercises with other things happening in the background. They do not play as loud as the RX-7, but they do more than one might expect. I find that they sound best about 75% of the way up, and that much past that, they run out of gas. Cleverly useful. The other thing that happens with the speakers is that the action feels different. I will explain. Acoustic pianos make a lot of noise. The keys make a "thud" every time they bottom, for instance. If the speakers are turned up, the volume of that "thud" that comes through the sample is "just right" and the keys then feel right. Turning the volume down, mutes that sound, and all of a sudden the feeling is more like a "weighted action" and less "like a piano". I repeated this with headphones and found the same thing. Our human sensory system can be so easily fooled! So my recommendation would be to turn the volume up until it seems most like an acoustic piano and you'll find that the action "improves" as if by magic. But if you play the piano turned off? The action is not very convincing. The Nord Grand remains convincing, even powered off. Fascinating, isn't it? It probably also says something about the amount of time Yamaha spent tuning the action response to the sample. It shows up very well, in my opinion, and I think they did a great job. At any rate, the P-515 is a keeper, and will be used for many years to input notes into DAW and notion programs. The action will probably also loosen up a bit over time. This probably won't help any of you in this thread that are wondering how good it is for playing advanced jazz, but there are some pretty compelling videos attached to this thread that make those points in a way I cannot. For $1500, I'm not aware of anything else that would be close to as good as this is. Everything else is $2k or more, I think. Everyone's needs and taste are different, but it is hard for me to imagine a pianist not being able to play well on this instrument in the circumstances this instrument would be used instead of a top quality acoustic grand.

Chuck, If you think of it as a piano with some extra features, rather then as a weighted controller or all-in-one, it isn't really clear what they would upgrade any time soon. As much as I agree with some of the early comments about the things that would've been nice in the MIDI implementation, having wheels, etc; the truth is that as a piano, it isn't going to go obsolete anytime soon. As long as the action is still sending quality MIDI, it will likely be doing the job I paid for. Given how slowly Nord adds flash RAM to their products, that just won't become a reason to upgrade. I can put 4TB of SSD and 32GB of RAM into a new MBP with an 8 core processor... Now if they suddenly put in 16GB and let me use most of it for one really nice AP and one really nice EP? That would get attention. Or if they put the Kawai action in the Stage (which I can't see their product managers doing given how they segment their product line).

Good to know! I will be sure to explore that. I quickly turned the knobs to make sure everything was working, but I didn't go through individual sounds yet and see what I can pull out. Their samples are well done - they just aren't exhaustive like the big multi-GB libraries in the laptop. But Nord really does an amazing job in a compact space - they target a very specific part of the market and serve it well. I'm just thrilled that they paired up with Kawai to access a top shelf action. With respect to the sample length - I am sure they sample pedal up/pedal down separately. It's the only way to get the pedal down samples to sound right. So they could sample them to different lengths. I'll look in the menus in case there is some option to extend the loops or sample playback...

Exactly! The main thing is that the keys/action feel fantastic and offer a full range of expression. That's what I need the hardware to do. Software can't fix or upgrade hardware or sensor problems! I will happily pay for great haptics. I can make the sounds be whatever I desire in the laptop. And, it should also be said, that for many uses, the built-in sounds would work and cover a gig. I'm glad that you picked up on the comparative nature of my comments and didn't take them as an absolute.

Well, my Nord Grand arrived last week while I was overseas on business. So, I had a bit of a present waiting for me on my return! I got it out and have spent a few hours with it. My initial impressions follow. I purchased it to be the lower tier of a live rig. The flat top is specifically useful to me. The fact that I can load in my own synth samples is specifically useful. That it has a Kawai action and not Fatar was very important to me. The lower tier is about AC piano for me, so aftertouch and other things just didn't matter. The fact that it came with a triple pedal and triple sensor were both factors. If it is to be a piano, then be one! I do use the sostenuto pedal on my RX-7, so why not have it on the Nord? This is for a laptop rig, so all the splits and layers will be done in Gig Performer. So, I was not put off by the minimal MIDI implementation Nord seems to think is useful. I purchased it without playing it. But, I have owned Yamaha P-series before, and played most of the boards on the market, including the Kawai MP7 and MP11. I have long appreciated both Yamaha and Kawai actions (and the Roland RD-2000). So I wasn't too concerned about feel. If it matched MP7, I'd be happy. I do not care for the Fatar weighted actions and avoid them for piano action. I do like the Fatar 8/S premium synth action, however (its on the Solaris, Quantum, etc). I played the CP88 recently, and found that in the CP88, the only sounds I really liked were the AP's - and not being able to change the other sounds was a limitation. The action on the CP88 was fine. The weight others have mentioned is no bother to me. It is lightweight compared to something like a Kronos 88. I had no trouble maneuvering it. I do wish Nord had already released a new soft bag for it. I will wait for their bag, as I don't really want a 30lb case for it. Presentation/Quality. The instrument is pleasingly solid and well built. On my custom Gibraltar stand, it is rock solid. It is as stable as my Kawai RX-7 - nothing moves except the keys. I didn't expect to think "this is nice" with an electronic instrument, but it is elegant for what it is. My 8 year old daughter said, "It looks good". So there you have it. Keys/Action/Feel. It feels great. It is almost indistinguishable from my RX-7. The Nord Grand feels just a smidge lighter - I bet it would weigh off about the same, but there is just more friction in wood parts. Most importantly, it can play softly. So many inexpensive keyboards just can't play softly, and even light playing generates MIDI 50-60's. It's like throwing half the dynamic range away! This can play softly under control, and like anything else generate "127s" without strain. The keys themselves feel great. Whatever "ivory touch" they have is quite nice. The action is "fast" and is not in the way for runs and flourishes. There's plenty of room for anyone to prefer something different, but honestly, if you can't play expressively on this, it isn't the instrument's fault. The MP11SE or Kawai CA-98 might be nicer, but they are in different categories and not suitable for this portable purpose. I'll play a Yamaha P515 on Wed or Thursday this week and be able to compare, but I expect both to be fully adequate for my purpose. The Nord Grand is a better form factor than the P515 for my purposes. Acoustic Piano Sounds. The new White Grand is a good sample for live playing. It is definitely a very close miked sound. I'd prefer a bit more space and maybe a tiny bit less brightness from close miking, but this is also what makes it a good sample for live playing. It will sound great in a mix. I was playing through my Fulcrum PA at about the same volume as my acoustic piano. My wife came downstairs and asked if I'd been playing the Nord yet. When I responded that's pretty much all I've been playing, she said, "From upstairs I couldn't tell the difference". There's decent variety in the Nord Piano library. None are "state-of-the-art". But if I need that, I can put the Ravenscroft or VSL Synchron Steinway on the laptop. The Synchron Steinway defines state of the art. The uprights have interesting and useful character. I have a Kawai RX-7 a few feet from the Nord Grand. The sound character of the White Grand is definitely familiar. The big difference to recording my piano is that the Nord Grand is hyper clean. The "string resonance" is much less than what occurs on a real grand, or even a state-of-the-art large piano library like Vienna Synchron Steinway. So, this provides a "clarity" of sorts. This is probably better for live use in a band anyway. For pure solo piano, it's probably 25% of what my RX-7 does. Part of this is likely also tuning related. The Nord sample is, of course, completely perfectly tuned. My RX-y is tuned regularly , but is probably not as "in tune" at any given time as the Nord sampling session - perhaps right after it is tuned. So a bit of thickness from tuning and a real soundboard are the two differences that I hear. I've spent a lot of time recording and miking up my piano, so these were obvious to me, but might be a lot less so to someone else if you don't have experience sampling and recording pianos. The other immediate difference to my RX-7 is the sample length. For normal live playing purposes the Nord Grand is fine. But if you take the G above middle C, my RX-7 will ring out for about 25 seconds with or without the sustain pedal. The Nord Grand is gone after 3 seconds or so played without sustain, and 6-7 sec with the sustain pedal. This is where a piano sample of a few hundred MB is just necessarily limited. In practical playing it is adequate, but it does show how they can fit so many pianos into 2GB- they aren't really very long samples. I suppose it helps with polyphony as well - if the note is done, the oscillator is free again. The Nord "soft, mid, bright" control makes a definite difference. The soft is not quite a felted piano, but it takes off both attack and high end. The "bright" adds high and removes low. The "mid" puts in a mid bump. I'm not sure where I'd use it, but it puts a fairly narrow 1-2 octave boost around middle C. I can see using the "soft" as an effect. E-piano sounds. Adequate, but not exceptional. My go to is the "Canterbury Rhodes" sample put out by Sonic Couture, and it is on my laptop. So the Nord e-pianos are fine for "take only one board" purposes. And that's all I'd ask them to be. If I was only playing e-piano and it was the core of my sound, I would personally have other samples in mind. But these are quite usable. All other sounds. Uninteresting to me (except the basses - which are useful). I will probably remove almost all. My plan is to sample a few things from my OB-6 and Solaris and put my own default synth pads in place. The included synths are pretty close to "bad, flat ROMpler sounds", in my opinion. When playing with "one board", I'd prefer to load in my own. When playing with full rig, I'll use the OB-6 or other devices. I don't plan to play horns or orchestral parts on this keyboard, so the weakness here is not very important to me, but may be to you. I'm used to hearing professional orchestral sample libraries that are 100's of GB in size. No keyboard sounds are going to sound "good" to me at this point, so it isn't a decision making point for me. UI. The overall Nord UI is easy and fast. No manual required, and it just works. They really do get the most important things immediately accessible. I don't understand having a synth section without a filter knob, but other than that, the desired things are easy to get to. The rear panel is simplicity itself. This is an instrument for playing, not tweaking or deep customization. It really is a piano, and for a piano it has a lot of features. But for a synth/rompler, it is devoid of many things. Horses for courses.... FX. Convenient. Not as good as a Blue Sky reverb, or an Eventide H9 pedal. But convenient and adequate. If I get picky, I have other things that are much better. But for emergency "one board" use? perfectly adequate. So, I am happy with it. It will serve me very well for many years as a portable piano, and weighed controller in a laptop rig. The action is as good as I've played (its been a while since I played the MP-11...), and certainly won't stop me from doing anything I can do on my RX-7 at home. When playing the White Grand, the touch-to-sound is wonderful. The instrument is very responsive and dynamically interesting. This is an instrument that you quickly explore and then it is all about playing. this one isn't for tweaking and getting lost for hours making sounds. It is for playing. And playing piano at that.

This is actually a really big deal. I kind of missed it at first, but without ability to stream from flash, 1.7Gb is ~98 min of stereo sampling at 24/48, or 5,880 seconds. Assuming 5 second samples, that's only 1,176 samples. Put that across some number of keys, and it is really not that many patches. You can grab some favorites, but that's just not much space for nuanced instruments, or velocity layers, etc. Too much computer resources may have already spoiled me. No wonder Rudess uses a Kronos - he has to stream from SSD to get that huge amount of sounds into the machine. Without SSD streaming, putting a whole show in the keyboard isn't really possible. Interface issues aside, that explains the Forte's "Flash Play" feature and why they can use it on Broadway - lots of user Flash for stuff, plus you can stream samples. I think that pretty much settles that this will be a laptop rig again. It's 2019. SSD space is cheap. I should not have to think about sample space and loading times. I wanted to like the notion of putting it all in a piece of hardware, but it will be easier in the computer. I just need to make sure the 88 note bottom keyboard can be a grab and go 1-board solution for when that is needed. I appreciate all the input on this thread. Even knowing the options fairly well, it was useful to have the dialog to help me sort out what I want to do. Laptop rig of awesomeness it is. GigPerformer + Falcon it will be.

This was my conclusion too. And I am definitely looking to play my multisampled "stuff that stays home"!

This is a slippery slope, and I'm well down the mountain myself... Roli Seaboard Grand? Yup, early adopter. Super expressive, but piano technique is wasted. I concluded good for lead lines only and that I wanted to play black and whites or go all the way to a Continuum. For something with black and whites, the Non-Linear Labs C15 is exceptional. No poly AT. No MIDI. But the keyboard is scanned at 4,000 levels or something like that. two ribbons, two pedals. Very, very expressive - much more so than any other synth action I've played. It uses a Fatar TP-8s with custom scanning - just shockingly expressive, especially notable are low velocities, which normally have no control on Fatar synth actions. It has a synth engine that makes really playable sounds that are plausibly acoustic. Highly satisfying to play. Does NOT program like a subtractive synth because in the main, it isn't. Physical modeling, FM, etc. Definitely digital, but sounds "real". Old, simple analog stuff just doesn't get very close. The oscillators are too simple, not enough modulation, etc. The Schmidt 8 voice is the exception. It makes heavy use of ring-modulation to generate waveform complexity that you'd otherwise only get digitally. And with several filters, each that can modulate differently, very expressive sounds can be made. It is a subtractive synth, yes, but the oscillators are just order of magnitude better than a standard analog poly. Like the C15, it demonstrates how much the oscillator actually can and should do for expressive sound. I suppose the CS-80 would also fit the bill (though they are a bit hard to find and I wouldn't want to maintain one). The John Bowen Solaris can play effectively at this game. It has the ability to modulate each phase of the ADSR, the slopes, etc. It is like a modular - anything can modulate anything in pretty much unlimited ways. It takes time, but if that modulation control is used and tweaked until it fits the sound exactly right, it makes HIGHLY expressive sounds. This too is digital, 4 OSC, 6 envelopes, unlimited modulation, DSP, etc. Ultimately, you end up needing better control surfaces, and once you start down that path, you end at the Continuum fairly quickly. It is the only thing presently made that has the actual physical sensitivity of a fine acoustic instrument. But - no existing keyboard technique matters. You start at the beginning and learn to play it. Like the C15 - no MIDI. Custom hardware scanning. Custom sound engine that is NOT subtractive and IS digital. I do think the future of synthesis is digital. Or at least digital modulation/control layers of analog things. Real physical things are complex and almost infinitely varied in subtle ways, and simple ADSR doesn't cut it. The whole harmonic envelope needs to vary and resonate over time. In software, PPG's Infinite does this. Alchemy dabbled in it. Sculpture gets this effect going well if you have Mainstage/Logic. So, my journey so far is that this territory of "plausible acoustic expressiveness" is a) digital, b) complex oscillator driven (FM, PM, etc), c) modulation dependent, and d) physical interface constrained. Legacy MIDI doesn't get there - none of the most expressive things use it. Hopefully MIDI 2.0 opens up a new high-performance controller world.

This is what I suspected. When I had the Kronos, I did sample some Minimoog bass sounds into it, and have memories of it being a bit obstinate. It works, of course, but one conforms to its needs for sure. I suspect Mr. Rudess outsources this to a keyboard tech and doesn't feel the pain... Good to know the Montage has a streamlined sample handling interface.

It will be fun! And yes, no way five are needed! It is interesting to have done this enough to know that it isn't about "right" or "perfect". There's more than one way that I can meet all requirements. Rig design seems kind of like studio design. There no "final answer" or "fixed configuration". As the needs/desires change, these things morph and evolve. For me a core remains, but stuff does move around. Sometimes I think it is just part of the creative process to shift the tooling/workflow a bit to enjoy the resulting changes in output.

Mostly with you on this. I will sample at 24 bits, 48Khz. All my orchestral samples are at 24/48, and so that's the standard rate in the studio. That way whatever I do can be used in multiple ways... While my PA mixer (A&H SQ-5) runs at 96Khz, that is more about latency than it is about extended frequency response, which will never be heard through PA speakers!

Yes. People still paint paintings, take picture, and do a thousand other things that have been done many times before. There are 30M+ tracks on Spotify, and yet people still write new music every day. Every time we create we make meaning - at least for ourselves. That is enough. Whether simply taking a preset and slightly customizing it for purpose, or starting from INIT, the result is something that satisfies the judgement of the most important person - whoever is making the changes. This is the essential conceit of all art - this is so because I wish it to be so. This power of choice - to either use the preset sound, or to create one fresh, or modify is part of the creative arc. It will be with us as long as humans are alive, even if there are 100M more patches released next year. Every one of those patches meant something to the creator, but may not mean much to me. And for that reason, sound design will endure. Not everyone will design sounds, just like not everyone plays an instrument or whatever, but some will find deep and enduring meaning in it. I know I'm glad Eric @ Spectrasonics still likes sound design... and that U-he still wants to design synths, etc.

Thanks for the suggestions. It seems that software is the way to go, I had a suspicion the screens got really "clicky" - there just isn't that much screen real-estate to do things. If I do that, then the sounds are also available as a library for the studio DAW rig. I still have to sort the core keys rig part, but I think the samples I will do in UVI's Falcon - it is kind of perfect for the task. It is like a workstation, only way, way better. Kontakt is perfectly adequate, just not nearly as clean and powerful as Falcon. The 1010 box is interesting, I missed that one. I think I'm just going to accept that a computer has been the solution and still is. Once decided, it is just how it is done. I'll get something for the bottom that gives me a one-board option for basics or other uses, and then put this project's material into a computer-based sampler. I have the computer, I have the software, so it really isn't any extra cost, and I know how to put it together, so there is little learning curve.

Thanks Audioicon! I would be planning to sample via software, not natively direct into the keyboard regardless of make. Chicken Systems or Sample Robot will auto-sample a keyboard and build the multisample, saving tons of time. Both will output Yamaha or Korg files. Agreed that a highlight of the Montage is the full spec'd sampling engine (not that it would matter hugely for live). I've never had a "matching" rig before, and the idea of an all Yamaha rig seems interesting - CP88 with Montage7 over the top. I like the Nord Piano/Stage3 Compact idea, but that is really just a keys rig - no sampling to speak of. Inside I know that "matching" doesn't mean much - it is sound and what I play. But vanity...

Working on putting a rig together for an original project. It will be heavily synth driven, some piano. Somewhere on a continuum between Muse and Nightwish - heavier, but not grinding metal (or 200-300bpm), not advanced prog in odd time. I have several very nice and even exotic synths. They are lovely. Sound amazing. Some are very expensive. None have useful live features like patch remain, or the kinds of features that bring a rig together for performance like Mainstage does (layers, splits, etc). While it would be cool, I'm not planning to take 5 polysynths out and rock a keyboard wall of doom. I only have two hands, and can't see taking more than two boards. I see it as two major options: 1) Sample the sounds from wherever I make them (soft or hard) into a hardware board like Kronos, Montage, or Forte, or 2) Sample the sounds from wherever I make them (soft or hard) into software like Kontakt, Falcon, etc. I have run an all Mainstage rig with just VAX77 and a cheap 49key Akai on top - no sounds except from laptop. It worked great, had exceptional sound quality, and never let me down. I work in IT related professions and have all the skills to keep laptop rigs going in top condition. It is extra setup, and layers of things, and there's no "one board" light solution. Everything has the computer "rack" plus a board. So, there is a sense in which it feels like maybe the grass is greener doing it like Jordan Rudess - commit to a platform and turn it into "my instrument" over time. The flip side is the computer has way better software, interfaces, screens, etc, and makes the hardware only matter for keyboard feel, haptics, and knobs/sliders/buttons that can map to Mainstage or Gig Performer (I am on Mac and have both, so there is no additional cost either way there). I have LOTS of soft synths, Komplete, Omnisphere, etc. It has been a few years since I owned a Kronos88, but I never sampled into it. I have the Chicken Systems auto sampling stuff already, so getting the multi-samples won't be hard. I do understand the work of reprogramming filters, etc to shape the sound if real control is wanted vs just play fixed settings. That work would have to be done in software or hardware, so I'm counting it a wash. The VAX77 is now my studio control surface for the DAW rig, so one way or the other I'm at least buying a 88 note piano action "something" that I like. That will be purchased entirely on key feel. CP88, Nord Grand, RD-2000, etc. Triple sensor, focus on piano. Especially in a software rig, I don't need another thing out of it than keys I like and having a backup piano sound if something goes horrible wrong. I have no issues on the Kronos, or Montage - I can tell the differences to the better piano actions (and sounds), but it won't be a deal-breaker. Have not tried a Forte. The new 88 either goes into the studio so the VAX moves to live rig, or the new board anchors the live rig. But either way, 88 notes get added. If I sample in hardware, the top board is probably the sampling keyboard - Forte7, Montage7, etc. Bottom board MIDI'd to top board so that performance patches lay out across both keyboards as needed. The hardware route could be a CP88 bottom, Montage7 on top (to hold samples) for example. Or it could be 88 "whatever" on bottom, less expensive controller with marginal action but lots of knobs, sliders, etc for software. I guess what I don't have a feel for is how evil it is or isn't to work with the samplers in the hardware boards. I know how to use Kontakt, and have even done piano samples with round robin groups, velocity ranges, etc. Say I wanted to sample in 100-200 sounds total that I've built in my various hardware synths.... I can read the manuals, but the Kronos for example just always has a little lag on the screen - you deal, but it isn't instant like a computer is. The touch isn't as good as an iPad (yes stylus helps). So kind of looking for feedback on the user experience of doing a bunch of work on the sampler side of a workstation. I know ultimate sound quality and flexibility goes to the laptop rig. But there's no doubt that sampling into a workstation is plenty good enough for Broadway, Rudess, and me. There's no "right" answer". I can make either "work". Just curious what the wisdom of the group has to say. It is nice to not play IT guy. My acoustic grand piano is lovely in that regard. Sampling, synth programming are all "non-musical" work. Kind of wondering if I do the work to put it in a workstation if I then get out of the "IT guy" part of running a laptop that never goes away.... Does anyone with experience have an opinion about the experience of sampling into a Korg vs. Yamaha vs. Kurzweil? Is one significantly better at importing and working with samples? All three have adequate space, the Kurzweil being the most generous (and having VAST). The Yamaha has super knob and great modulation... And so it goes... Thoughts?

He is an amazing musician. He is young. If I could have played like that at that age, I'm sure I would have! So much fire, enthusiasm and having a genuine good time! It is infectious. The thing I got from the first clip is how much charisma he has on stage - that wasn't really evident in some of the earlier clips with Snarky Puppy - he was a guest on their show. But he can mesmerize a huge room by himself. Not many can do that AND actually play at the highest levels. He's the real deal. Now, how deep do you think his music will be in 20 years after the need to be impressive wears off. He isn't going to be any less good.

And here it is. With the recent announcements of all the new Roland gear, the new Hydrasynth, and now a new synth from Modal Electronics, it seems companies don"t want to wait until January NAMM. Is NAMM becoming less important? Will other keyboard companies do the same? I think trade shows are less important every year. They only exist because of human relationship, I think. Many industries have their major announcements outside the show window - it is too crowded. Your message is lost in a feed of hundreds of vendors. Its not like Roland needs a lot of "press coverage". Free enthusiasts sites get the word out to everyone who cares within hours. Better to spend on social media "influencers" than show journalists.... The world has changed.

This. It seems inconceivable that there is a shortage of ways to get a legacy Jupiter sound. There is a real magic to the originals, of course, but being priced at unobtanium levels, maybe that makes room for some re-issues (digital). But honestly, those sounds are quite dated. Synths have needed better modulation for years, and the newer synths deliver. Also a trend in newer synths is much more powerful oscillators. Filters are really basic things. Having good oscillators that are able to generate interesting layers of harmonics by themselves is definitely helpful. Wavetable is useful. Note also the morphable filter - best feature of the OB6. I guess I'm a case in point. I couldn't think of a reason to consider the Jupiter, but the Argon had my interest right away, and at $700? it is well thought out and does things none of my other hardware does. I have hardware synths like the Solaris that have better architecture than the Jupiters - that Solaris has saved me much $$ over the years - for vintage sounds, there is little it can't do. It can even mock up CS-80 architecture.... The future is digital synthesis and the modes it enables. I have four excellent analog hardware synths. VA synths aren't much interest - give me new digital stuff with great keys, novel sound engine with great oscillators, and great modulation.