Rodan88
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Posts posted by Rodan88
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Aha - we meet again! ;-D
Surprised you never heard this theme, it's beyond classic. Then again it's one of my favorite movies, and Herrmann's entire score is a masterpiece. No surprise there. Famously, he died a few hours after the last recording session.
Just for you, I threw on the headphones, and although I'm away from the piano, here's what I'm hearing:
The strings play a 1/2 note D-natural on beat 1 (where the Gm7 chord happens), move to an Eb on beat 3, and hit an E-natural on beat 4, tying it into the next measure, where the Fmaj7 chord happens.
At the same time, the piano is playing an almost chromatic line in the top notes of its voicings, starting on the Gm7 chord on the downbeat of the first bar. The top notes, with the corresponding piano voicings below them are: F (Gm7), F# (Gm (maj 7), G# (C7#5) A (C713b9 - i.e., A triad/C7. On the downbeat of the next bar, the piano plays a quiet lower register Fmaj9 chord, followed by a light fill.
So great. But wait - I can do you one better - somewhere, I have a copy of Herrmann's handwritten score to the film. I'll dig it up and check my work!
By the way, I'd love to know who the rhythm section is on the recording. I found an article online naming all the brass players, plus Emil Richards (what wasn't he on?) on percussion.
Reezekeys, we should know each other - I'm in NYC also, and we have many acquaintances in common. One that springs immediately to mind is your bandmate, Cliff Lyons.
More coming......
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4 hours ago, AROIOS said:
"Was transcribing a chord from the Taxi Driver theme (0:28 in the YT link) and noticed how this "m7#5" chord we talked about last year can serve tastefully as a dominant chord."
Yeah, Aroios, I love the Taxi Driver theme and that chord. But it's not a minor 7#5 chord at all. It's a C7#5#9 - a heavily-dominant sound all the way. Sure there's in Eb in the chord, but that's the top note, functioning as a #9. It also gives the contour of the melody its aching, yearning quality, especially because of the way the saxophonist swoops into it. The E-natural below is the 3rd, and forms a tritone with the Bb. And, the G#/Ab can be thought of as either the #5 or b13. By the way - interesting story - Ronnie Lang played the iconic alto sax solos on the film score. It's often been credited to Tom Scott, but apparently, Tom played on a different "soundtrack" album that was released later!
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I'm definitely in the Gbadd9/Bb camp.
A few thoughts: (By the way I wrote this post before reading through all of the replies to the OP's post, so pardon some repetition of ground covered by others!)
1) It's in no way a sus2 chord, as the 3rd is included.
2. Though I've seen it many times - and God knows, you can write whatever you want - but Bbm7b13 (and similar symbols) really aren't "legit." (OK, under extreme duress, if moving from, say Bbm7 with an "F" on top, to Bbm7#5 to Bbm6, I could see using the minor 7#5 nomenclature.) I don't bat an eyelash at very complicated symbols, but non-standard symbols and enharmonically incorrect spellings are apt to make me stumble quicker than something that looks like what it is. ( I discussed this - which is my religion - in a similar thread with you not too long ago, Reezekeys.) Sight-reading is all about pattern recognition. Chord symbols ideally need to be drawn from accepted conventions, notes need to be enharmonically correct, intervals should be properly spaced, etc.
3) Since the chord symbol specifies that the Bb is a bass note, and we all (should) know to avoid doubling the 3rd in any chord (as it greatly weakens the sonority), we're left with 3 pitches in the right hand - Ab, Db and Gb. Any inversion of these 3 notes gets the idea across, but by far, the best spacing and most effective voicing is the voicing in 4ths, spelled Ab, Db, Gb from the bottom up - exactly as in Reezekeys' original post. Playing higher inversions sound less cohesive, as the distance increases from the bass note. The 2nd best voicing would be 1 inversion BELOW the original voicing - starting a 6th above the bass note, and spelled Gb, Ab, Db from the bottom up. That's a good-sounding voicing!
4) Of course, the real issue is - how do you best imply this EXACT voicing from the chord symbol alone? In my opinion, you really can't do it all that successfully. The quickest solution (and it's a common one) is to notate the exact voicing you want whenever you want an exact voicing. That might only happen once in a chart. Or every time a certain voicing comes up. Or frequently, when you're in what I'd call the "Steely Dan Situation" - where you MUST play a voicing in a very specific way to achieve the "right" sound. I've transcribed many of their tunes, and that's how my charts are designed. We've all experienced the letdown of buying badly arranged published sheet music when we were younger/less experienced, and before our ears were highly developed. (I remember being really excited to get the Steely Dan Complete book when I was in high school, only to discover what a travesty it is!) And, speaking of Steely Dan's famous "Mu" chord - while it's a specific voicing that they use all the time, it's not a term used elsewhere in music, and is only familiar to those who read the interview where they describe it. As usual, I'm sure they were having fun at the interviewer's expense (a favorite sport of theirs, especially back in the day), and probably made up the name on the spot. Of course, they didn't "invent" the chord, it was just a favorite device of theirs.
5) If, for example, you're in a band where the composers/arrangers tend to use certain voicings often, you can come to know their tendencies, and learn what they want, and what they MEAN when they use certain chord symbols. A little discussion during rehearsals can iron this out quickly, too.
6) Though I'm a longtime lurker on this forum, I don't weigh in too often. But this type of topic really strikes a nerve with me. One of the beauties of having clear charts and a bandstand filled with excellent readers is the welcome avoidance of time-wasting that will result. Time that can be so much better invested in making music, rather than arguing about everyone's opinion of "hmm, what happens in this spot?" Put it in black and white, unless you want to want to feel like a member of Spinal Tap. To that end, Linwood's more score-like approach and the suggestion to use guitar-style "top-note stem voicings" are both good solutions. And Reezekeys - although you felt you didn't have enough space to write in your voicing, I think there are variously workable solutions, involving adjusting the layout/using an "ossia" staff above the main staff/using cue-sized notes in parentheses, etc.
I love the energy we all have to examine this issue from a myriad of different angles! Another example of what makes the Keyboard Corner so unique!
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Wasn't there an image of the notated chord in the original post?
As far as the bottom note of a voicing being considered as a bass note (root or otherwise) - if it's a mid-register chord or higher, the bottom note isn't functioning as a bass note at all, but rather as a chord tone. ESPECIALLY in this example, where the chord is a cluster of major 2nds (whole-tone scale notes), and there is practically no distance between the lowest note and its closest neighbor.
In a spread voicing with the bottom note in the bass register, it's quite possible that the bottom note is functioning as a bass note. But, even in that situation - even if the bottom note is REALLY low - it's still possible that the orchestration could have even lower notes. That might create a murky situation/muddy sound/ambiguous harmonic analysis - but perhaps musical anarchy/unusual texture/emotional impact is exactly what the composer/arranger/orchestrator is aiming for! These types of effects are used in films scores all the time, but they certainly have their roots in classical compositions, including those that aren't as "modern" as one might think!
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100% - get the 12.9" Pro!
I have an early generation iPad, which was OK for its time. The 12.9" was long-rumored before it went into production.
I ordered one the first day it was possible to do so, and have never regretted it!
Sure, you could get by with the 11", but this is what you do. You're a respected pro with top-shelf equipment, and your iPad should be no exception. In its vertical orientation, reading a single page can be as large and bold as a page out of a fakebook. And in portrait view, reading 2 side-by-side pages is pretty reasonable.
forScore is absolutely the way to go, as well. I have used it since the beginning, and was bringing it on gigs from the first day I had it. With its numerous and frequent updates, the feature set is now staggering. Suffice it to say that you can edit/annotate scores, create set lists easily, and much, MUCH more. Pairing it with a Bluetooth page-turner is great, but you can also turn pages via facial gestures in the current OS. It's also very doable, with a little practice, to turn pages by tapping on the screen, unless you're playing music where there's no opportunity whatsoever for your hands to leave the keyboard. (I've discussed this with Reezekeys on the forum, and as he indicates above, he prefers turning pages via his controller.) But the real point is, this baby is flexible, and you can make it do what you want and need it to.
I'm about to buy another one for my 21 year-old son, who's graduating from college in May, and is following me into the perilous career of a NYC keyboardist. (God help us!) I know it will be an important tool in his arsenal, and it will be in yours, too. DO IT, Jim! You won't be sorry.
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OK, NOW the example of deceptively-written sheet music is attached! Sorry.
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Folks -
This piece is definitely in 4/4 throughout.
Of course, it's true that anything in 4/4 COULD also be written in cut time (2/2). A piece in 4/4 COULD also be written in 2/4. Or 4/8. Or 16/16.
You could also write something that's clearly in 12/8 in 4/4, with the 8th notes being expressed as triplets. Similarly, you could write a "swing 4" in 12/8, using alternating 1/4 notes and 8th notes to capture a swing feel.
But, none of the above choices make sense just because they're technically possible.
You have to evaluate any piece of music on its own terms, taking into account the style, genre, intent, phrasing, tempo and musicality to determine the appropriate time signature.
Certain genres are typically in cut time - bright "Broadway" tempos (e.g., "There's No Business Like Show Business), merengue, calypso, samba, etc.
(Brazilians almost always write bossa novas - even slow ones - in 2/4, but that's another story.)
A good rule of thumb is: if something is too fast to conduct in 4, and has an underlying 2-feel, cut-time is the way to go. Trying to conduct a slowish 4-feel in 2 would be equally awkward. Of course, you might need to conduct something like a very fast bebop tempo in 2, but the underlying feel is definitely a 4-feel, as the walking bass underlines. Imagine trying to conduct Coltrane's classic version of Giant Steps in 4. It would be ridiculous to even attempt it, so for convenience and clarity, you'd want to conduct in 2. (Not that that rhythm section needs a conductor!) But, it's undeniably in 4.
As far as the song in this thread, right off the bat, the bass line is a classic dotted quarter/8th note pattern. Nice medium tempo, feels strongly in 4. The underlying 4-pulse is clearly felt when the rhythm section drops out. The rhythm-less section is not rhythmically complex. It could be deceptive if you're not paying attention, but when the rhythm section re-enters, it feels like there's been a steady pulse throughout. Because, there has been!
By the way, a real pet peeve of mine is something you see in published sheet music all the time. I don't know if some editors are afraid of 16th notes (or perhaps they think their customers will be). But there's nothing worse than seeing a pop balled at a slow tempo written in cut-time, where what should be written as 16th notes are written as 8ths, and every two bars of cut-time should be a single bar of 4/4 music. It makes the sheet music twice as long as it should be, and is not what your eyes want to see. It's the rhythmic equivalent of writing the middle note of an A Major triad as a Db. Uh, no.
In short, my manifesto is: WRITTEN MUSIC SHOULD LOOK LIKE WHAT IT IS.
There, I feel better now. Gotta remember to take my medication! ;-D
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Yes, amazing instrument! If you don't mind a slight correction, Reezekeys, the instrument is called the cimbalom (with an "m" at the end).
Here's a clip that will give you an idea of what's possible on the instrument. The true virtuosi are mind-boggling:
And if you've never seen Roby Lakatos and his group, check him out. He's a mind-blowing musician, from a long family dynasty. I chanced upon his group doing an outdoor concert in La Grand-Place - the famous central square in Brussels, many years ago, and have been a huge fan ever since. He's not so well-known in the US, but he's very well-known internationally, records for Deutsche Grammophon, etc. A true violin virtuoso, whose group plays an amazing blend of Gypsy music, classical and jazz. Not-to-be-missed!
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OK, so.........WHAT IS THE EXCERCISE? ð¤¡
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"Gordon Lightfoot's Worst Nightmare." If you use a Gordon Lightfoot song.
"WHAT'S GOING ON???!!!???!!!???!!!???!!!" If you use a Marvin Gaye song.
"(DO Fear) The Arranger." If you use a Blue Ãyster Cult song.
OK, I think my work is done here. ð¤¡
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By the way - ForScore's tech support is pretty good, and the built-in User Guides (under the "Support" tab) are pretty thorough.
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Sure, I remember Nitesprite - don't think I ever saw the band, but I know most of the guys that were in that band; some are close friends! Since we play the same instrument, there's been less of an opportunity for us to meet over the years, I guess.
Back to the iPad - I agree 1000% with what Math of Insects just posted. I always tap, NEVER swipe. Swiping is a slower, herky-jerky motion, and more prone to sloppiness. Tapping is quicker, more focused, and is all about economy of motion. Mis-taps can happen, but I think it's the way to go. Try it! Other options include "half-page turns," etc.
As MOI pointed out, if a page is at all zoomed, any of the gestures don't work until the page is un-zoomed, so I never mess around with that live. Using the "crop" feature, you CAN re-crop any or all pages of a chart so that it's a little bit enlarged, and then save the re-cropped version. This is especially handy when a PDF has significant empty white borders around the perimeter of the music.
Various newer iPad models/versions of iOS support facial gestures, but I haven't messed around with that yet. I'm strange-looking enough as it is! ;-D
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You know, I thought it might have been a gig with Vaneese - one of the charts in your video referred to the singer as "VT," and I know you're in the NYC area (I live in Manhattan).
I've played a few times with Vaneese when we were both side-people, but I've also filled in on one of her own gigs. Just went through old emails - it was in 2015, when she had just put out a CD called "Blues For My Father" - we did material from that record.
She's such a killer singer! And, having that DNA sure doesn't hurt!
You and I have a lot of mutual friends, but for some reason, we've never met. Hope we do, one of these days!
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As others have mentioned, it's easy to set up hot spots (even multiple ones, using different colors, I believe) for D.S./Coda, etc. I think you'll still have to tap the right spots on the iPad screen at the right times, though. I'm not sure if you can control this feature with your controller or a foot pedal.
And, rearranging pages is a great tool for keeping things on an "advance pages only" plan. (Along with rearranging, you can also easily "white-out" bars that you won't need to be playing on a particular page.)
Your planned purchase of a clip (with perhaps a sturdier stand to mount it on) is an excellent idea, too.
Depending on the situation, I'll often create Sibelius charts to condense an original chart to a minimum of pages, eliminating the need for any backtracking to a D.S., etc. It's amazing how you can condense a 10-page chart to a couple of pages containing all of the essential info in many (but not all) cases.
By the way, looks like you're using a "small" iPad in landscape orientation in your video. Landscape is more legible, but means more page turns, of course.
I can't recommend highly enough using an iPad Pro. In vertical mode, it's like reading a page from a full-sized fake book. And in landscape mode, you can view 2 adjacent pages legibly! Thus, reducing the number of............(wait for it)........... necessary page turns!
Of course, I'm still in the caveman-era "just tap the screen" camp for your current situation! ;-D
I know, I know, now you're wanting to solve the gear challenge, and bask in the glow of man's triumph over machines!
Much respect for that! But - who needs the stress of wondering when/if a problem will occur? Unless of course, you're in a situation where it's someone's job to handle the tech issues, freeing you up to concentrate on the music! May we all be so fortunate.
Good luck, and keep us posted on the gig!
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Interesting thread!
Your current solution looks great, Reezekeys, but if I might continue to play devil's advocate........
I've been a heavy iPad/ForScore user for 10 years, and have thought frequently of buying a Bluetooth page-turner pedal, or using another solution.
However, the drawbacks have always prevented me from doing so:
1) Another item to carry, set up/break down and maintain. And to keep charged!
2) Something I'd definitely not want to use in outdoor/inclement weather situations - unless there was a covered stage.
3) Another opportunity to introduce Bluetooth/other tech issues into the situation.
Etc.
What I've found is that for MOST gigs - including when playing solo, tapping the screen to turn pages in either direction works very well. Of course, I tap the "wrong" spot now and then, but it's barely an issue. My right hand is only leaving the keyboard briefly, even if needing to tap a couple of extra times. While it's doing so, I'm playing with my left hand, laying out briefly or faking till the next page is visible - all depending on the situation - how well I know the music, whether the music will be compromised by laying out, etc. Often, using ForScore, I'll write in the next page's first couple of chord changes in the bottom right corner of the current page, so I can see what's coming up in case I tap on the spot.
In consideration of all of the above - on gigs where the stakes are high (typically with a high-profile act, or a show) and where I (and more importantly, the WHOLE PERFORMANCE) would be be really screwed if page turns became problematic - I take the time to put together a binder. (I put all the pages in plastic sheet protectors, which allow for VERY fast page turns.)
iPads/ForScore themselves pose an inherent risk - freezing/other tech weirdness, forgetting to charge, etc. The worst trainwreck that'll happen with a binder is that you momentarily turn an extra page, etc. Of course, you have to remember to bring the binder! ;-D
2 stories:
1) All of my preaching notwithstanding, I saw Yuja Wang playing Ligeti etudes while using a Bluetooth page-turning pedal. In solo recital at Carnegie Hall. While wearing her usual ridiculous (5" or 6") stiletto heels. As usual, she was beyond flawless. So, go figure. All of her countless other death-defying feats that night were performed from memory, as usual.
2) I recently spoke with Bill Mays, who was looking to get an iPad/ForScore rig together for live performances. He's been doing a lot of classical playing, including a performing 4-handed piano music with another pianist. He was hoping to use his laptop if at all possible, but I discouraged him from doing so, as placing a laptop on top of the closed piano lid - or on a stand mounted to the side, which would entail turning one's head to read - might pose some awkward logistics. So, I was heavily pushing using an iPad/ForScore. I went through all of the models of iPad/pedals, sent him lots of links, etc. He ending up buying a pedal and ForScore and loves both. But.....he's continuing to use his trusty laptop - propped up on the acoustic piano music desk (i.e., the built-in rack). Just watched my son doing the same last night - with the laptop precariously balanced on the little flip-up desk of his upright piano. Uh, no thanks. Different strokes!
Sometimes, lower-tech is better. Here's a sturdy music stand (the RATstands "Jazz" model) that I've used for years. I've owned a couple, as the model has continued to introduce improvements. Works beautifully for iPad and hard copies. Expensive, but very light/portable. Used to be harder to find (British company), but it's now available through Amazon, etc. They make many other amazing and unique products, too : https://www.ratstands.com/product/the-jazz-stand/
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Just a thought -
If you're planning to reach up and tap the controller to turn pages, why not just reach up and tap the iPad screen itself?
I do it all the time when paying both solo and in bands!
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Best of luck health-wise to obxa and everyone!
The thread reminds me of a (dated) music/sports joke:
What's the similarity between Harry Connick Jr. and Bo Jackson?
Artificial hip.
P.S. Feel free to substitute Kenny G. for Harry Connick, etc. Of course, Harry's a hell of a piano player.
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Good question, Mike!
The persistent 2-feel in the bass makes one think of cut-time, but the tempo is slow.
What really seals the deal (for me) is that the 16th notes swing (think of all the horn lines). Cut-time isn't a place where you'll see swinging rhythms, typically.
So - slow tempo, swinging 16ths - 4/4 all the way!
Also - all of the charts I've written for the song, and all of the ones I've seen, are in 4/4.
Finally, I had the GREAT, GREAT honor and privilege of performing this song (and several others) with Stevie.
But there were no charts in that situation - live, or at the rehearsal.
One of the greatest musical thrills of my life!
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Google/YouTube!
You'll find multiple versions in a second (some with transcriptions).
I just did a quick search, but didn't find a solo piano version.
However, the trio versions start with solo piano, and are very low-key. You mentioned hearing the track at low volume in a bookshop.........so perhaps the bass/brushes weren't apparent in that environment?
Great song, masterful pianist - pure beauty!
Of course, there are tons of live Bill recordings out there, so maybe a solo version(s) exists on one of them?
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Another Paul Simon story....I know a lot of guys that have played with Paul Simon.
One close friend in particular has been playing with him for MANY years.
We were discussing Kodachrome one day, and he told me that on live dates, Paul bagged the mixed meter moments (two 3/4 bars in different spots, I think) years ago. Not sure why, as he always has killer bands that could easily handle those spots (and then some). Maybe Paul was getting tripped up?
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Another overly-generalized but pretty accurate concept I came up with:
"If it's slow enough to conduct, it's in 4/4. If it's too fast to conduct, there's a good chance it's in cut-time."
Notable exception: Super-fast bebop tempos, a la Donna Lee - definitely a fast 4 .
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Floyd, it has a name. "Wrongly-Notated Feel." ;-D
Or, how about: "Deceptive Cadence," Half-Assed Time," "What?-Time."
Just came up with those - anyone else got one?
P.S. "Stab-Time"
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Stand back -
I have VERY strong feelings on this topic!
I agree 1000% with those who have said that notating a slow pop ballad (especially with 16th note rhythms/backbeat) in anything other than 4/4 is a REALLY bad idea.
Writing such a chart in cut-time completely misrepresents the feel and intention of the music, and is painful to the eyes and musical sensibilities of strong readers and trained musicians.
You're not making anything clearer by writing that type of chart in cut-time - and the irony is that many players have a much harder time reading and understanding cut-time than any other standard time signature! By far.
You're not saving anything - time, space, money, whatever - by cutting corners and notating a chart in such a profoundly wrong way. If the chart has to have one or two measures per system, so be it. Pros will thank you. And less-experienced players will learn to associate the proper notational choices with specific tempos/styles/grooves.
Of course, I've had those kind of abominations (typically, published pop-tune sheet music) put in front of me countless times, and the worst-case scenario is playing one of those charts when you don't know the song, and there's no indication on the chart (or verbal clarification from a conductor or bandleader) of the feel.
Similarly, I don't want to see a Broadway 2-beat or a salsa chart written in 4/4.
I'm used to seeing bossa novas in 4/4 at this point, but Brazilian sheet music always notates them in 2/4. Sambas are often written 2/4 as well, but due to the quicker tempo, cut-time is more common and acceptable.
All of the above are the metrical equivalent of an A Major triad with the 3rd written as a Db instead of a C#. Or a chord progression that mixes enharmonics indiscriminately, for example, a I VI II V in B represented as: B, Ab-7, C#-7, Gb. No. No. NOOOOOOOOOO!
Sight reading is ALL about pattern recognition, and things looking "right." I'm a super-strong reader, but nothing trips me up faster than a chart full of the above issues. As pianists, we're often reading 6 or more notes simultaneously, so another pet peeve is intervals stacked incorrectly. A triad should look like stacked 3rds, etc.
OK, I feel better now......
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Anyone else have any problems loading the OB6 library into their MODX (or Montage)?
I've always loaded and swapped out various libraries - Bösendorfer, Chick's Rhodes, Montage Expanded - without a hitch.
But with the OB6 library, I've had all sorts of problems - I can find the individual patches via the search function, but they didn't load into a User bank en masse.
And they loaded into the machine out of numerical order - all patches are named similarly - OB6 1, OB6 2, etc.
Worst of all, VERY few of the patches make any sound when selected. My MODX is working fine, otherwise.
Could it be an OS issue? I've never updated, and I'm still running the original OS.
I know, I know - I'm missing out on lots of great stuff. But the aforementioned libraries all load in perfectly.
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated - HELP!
Thanks,
Dan
Time for another pedantic theory question
in The Keyboard Corner
Posted
Well, I hate to be immodest, but I got it right!
Here's Herrmann's autograph score - check out bars 4 and 5. Pretty cool how everything's written out, but the rhythm section and sax soloist make things feel so perfectly atmospheric.