Doug Robinson

Math---Dane Cook? You're being way too hard on yourself.

Sorry, while listening I realized I could probably just point you to about 10:00 to the end of the second clip, where we're all blasting away.

That concert video was from a night I produce and arranged that featured three different rhythm sections, vocalists, acoustic piano and keyboard duets, Latin/salsa, boleros, funk and straight ahead jazz. I had a lot on my mind. here are two clips from the after-show jam session at a small restaurant where I've played with blues and jazz bands, so I know the room well. Just my SS3, sitting off to my left and about 1 foot away from me. Obviously we aren't playing Deep Purple. The first clip has a wonderfully frenetic sax solo (he's doing his best Michael Brecker) and a bass solo (he's quite good). The second clip features a nice, exploratory trumpet solo with minimal comping and then a keyboard solo...but as you'll see, playing balls out for me isn't my only color choice. Still, you can get an idea of how the SS3 lets my keys fit with the rest of the group, filmed by a pro with a good handheld camera. and of course, let's not forget that it's still about our choices as players--I could have played louder but this felt right to me.

Math said: "A) Nice playing." Gracias. "B) Not to nitpick, but a feed off the board would only need signal coming in, not going out. " True. I let him add a tiny bit to the house during soundcheck but was satisfied that what the audience was hearing was mainly the SS3, as it has been for 100% of my other concerts and gigs before and since. "Therefore, I think it's worth considering whether C) Would any sound man, in the heat of a performance, let the keyboard player he was hired by get lost in the mix all night? If he has signal to work with, and he needs to boost it, you have to figure he's gonna boost it. And if the guy who's paying him not to boost the keys asks afterward if he did, you have to figure a smart sound man will say no. " Lol, maybe you're right. Maybe you were hearing 100% front of house sound. "So it's entirely conceivable that both things could be true: that your FOH sound was (as far as you knew) mostly SS3, and that in fact it was greatly helped along by the mains. In this case, the only culprit would have been a good sound man just doing his job--on a couple of different fronts." this might be true if it was the only gig I've played. Obviously it isn't. I'm not sure why such thought goes into responding to a video and my description, but I honestly feel you're over-thinking this. I play music all the time, and every gig I'm doing now is with the SS3 alone--I have other videos, but this was the loudest gig that was recorded so I figured I'd post it instead of the others, because if I post something in a small venue some will say "Well, I'd like to hear it in a different venue, playing different music..." or whatever. "This is not meant to deconstruct your claim, just to reconcile what I think is a completely understandable limitation of this great box with an experience that seems at odds with my own." I can't imagine that if you were onstage with me at that concert that you would have felt underpowered. You can insist that you would have felt that way, but I think I know better. Maybe if you were playing a different kind of music, of course. But that stage, those tunes, that night, those players? Nah. "I agree with HammondDave, a context with a completely unmic'd SS3 would be more instructive. " Well, I'll post one of those...but I bet it will get a whole different set of objections. "BUT....as I entered this thread for my very first post here cautioning, it's not supposed to be an FOH box. It's a monitor. It does a great job as such." This is the part I really don't understand--I view it as a keyboard amp. The fact that i can also run the signal out to FOH doesn't make it a FOH box any more than putting a mic in front of a twin reverb makes that amp a FOH box, does it?

Yes, and these are typically excellent players. The problem on this occasion was a bottle of mescal, a bottle of tequila, and three bottles of red wine someone brought into the green room unbeknownst to me. :-)

You guys are a tough crowd :-) I just grabbed the video that came closest to satisfying curiosity. Thanks for the kind words about my plane, too. I know the soundman didn't boost me because he worked for me: I had done a show with him the week before and I hired him for this concert because the theater sound people are so awful. My production, and I'm kind of a control freak about sounding good. The only reason I went through the system at all was that he had a signal to feed to another videographer who was taking a mix of the board. The reason I let myself be overshadowed when the horns were playing was that I could hear that they were a couple of semi tones flat and thought it would be best if I laid way back while the horns were in their mouths. As for me being the "talent" in that band, it's not quite accurate. That's Rick Shlosser on drums who has played and toured extensively with Van Morrison, Bonnie Raitt, James Taylor and dozens of others. And the guitarist is quite the mindblower, though he was pretty sick that night and turned in fine but low-key performance. I'm going to post some other videos in the "let's hear it" thread that feature him and me doing simultaneous jazz improvisation, which is pretty mind blowing stuff in my opinion.

Very slightly in the house system--I told him I wanted it 95% acoustic. We were pretty loud, not arena rock loud but rockin enough for 350 people. I was at 11o clock volume in the amp, could have turned up but it felt ok to me.

Lol--though I never went to SDSU, personally, I was raised a few blocks away. Montezuma Elementary and then Hardy Elementary, then Horace Mann Jr High, then Crawford High (played drums in the award-winning jazz band--think Whiplash without the fear and pain). I moved away in '73 but moved back in the '90s. My best-known bands were The Twinkies (72-73) and then in the 2000's JAZZOOO, a great trio with Duncan Moore and Ken Dow. My brother is Andy Robinson, drummer for the once well-known prog rock group Horsefeathers.

I could strangle those horns for being so out of tune...yikes.

Ok, it's not my favorite performance by any means, but here's one of my groups the ZuZu Men doing Cold Sweat. There is a TINY bit of my organ in the house, but it's almost nothing the sound you're hearing is basically from the stage (just my SK1 and the SS3) from the second balcony, maybe 60 feet back, shot with an iPhone.

I think I prefer it between me and others, behind Us.

Im still deciding where I place it. Today in rehearsal I had it to my left and 1ft behind me, with all the other players on my other side. I know they heard me but it felt a little disconcerting.

Even when I'm using it as a monitor, I still prefer to have it five or 6 feet away. If it isn't loud enough for me to hear it from that distance, neither will the other musicians. I think, and I'm probably just kidding myself but what the heck, other musicians play better with you when they hear the sound coming from your instrument so to speak, as opposed to monitors.

One last thing--it's funny that you mention Tio's--I had a friend who used to play with Buddy Blue there, everything run through the house. It was ridiculously loud, hated going to hear them. In some ways, it is similar to the acoustic piano question--you have people comparing different samples, with often strong opinions--but if you ask them the last time they actually played an acoustic grand they might not even remember. I think bands have forgotten how great they can sound without a giant P.A. system. of course, there are venues and genres that depend on super loud volume, but it certainly isn't 100% of the stuff we hear today. I played a gig the other night where the lead guitar amp was mic'd and run thorough the P.A., as if a Fender twin isn't loud enough to fill a room with 100 people. Sheesh. So of course, the bassist runs his amp into the P.A. to keep up and then the drummer needs a little fill as well...yikes. Suddenly you have a decent band that actually knows how to control it's own dynamics, all at the mercy of the incompetent sound guy who isn't even paying attention.

Ah, well that explains it, Dave. By the way--born and raised in the College area (4945 Art Street!) and then 7 or 8 years in rancho Santa Fe and then Hidden Meadows, north of Escondido. Do you ever play with drummer Duncan Moore, sax player Tripp Sprague or his brother Peter? I hate most club sound systems, and it's only uniquely-talented soundmen that I truly appreciate. I like to be in control of my sound, period. It's like the days of gigging with my friend's B3 and Leslie--I really didn't need anyone else to make my instrument sound awesome. Going through FOH is usually just about volume, not tone quality imo. I mean, that's really pretty logical--most clubs run different bands all week long, sometimes a few in one night--how can a sound guy care that much about getting your sound just right beyond making it loud enough? And how can you really hear what he's doing to your sound? Anyway, when I play most of the time I use the SS3 as my onstage monitor as well as for the audience. I've already told the story of my recent outdoor gig where I was the only one not in the P.A. and it was perfect. Then again, I think bands generally rely too much on P.A.s these days, driving volume higher and higher when it isn't always necessary. I saw Jonatha Brooke at Belly Up 15 years ago, and even on a song with just two acoustic guitars with pickups, vocals, a bg singer and a kick drum, it was ridiculously loud and screechy so I stood in front of the club and decided not to go back in. If you've never played stereo instruments through a stereo setup I can see why you'd be a bit blasé about it, but I had the experience once of setting up through two Bose towers once and holy moly--did my keys sound beautiful after years of going through a mono amp. From that moment on, I tried Motion Sound amps, Fender P.A.s, two Rolands, etc. Of all of those experiments the Fender P.A.s worked best for me until now. I didn't dig the Motion Sound amps, personally. Didn't really sound like stereo to me.

I have to agree with that--if you aren't playing stereo sounds, why use a stereo amp? I take it for granted that most of us like stereo rhodes, wurly, piano and organ/leslie patches but for those running a mono sound then a powered monitor is probably a better solution. "not having enough volume ... that sounds like it should be a fundamental problem for my particular need? an "amp" that isn't loud enough for the band?" MotiDave--San Diego guy here myself, Crawford High Class of '73 You are always going to find a situation where an amp isn't loud enough--even a Marshal stack does through the P.A. at a big enough arena, right? But if you look at the actual reviews written by people using the SS3 in the field, you won't find too many comments like "It just wasn't loud enough for my band." There might be a few, but who can say how loud the bands were? On the other hand, you will see many comments from users who have been surprised at how loud and clear it has proven to be, right? at some point, you will need to go hear one of these for yourself and better yet, play through it. I think the chances are pretty good that you'll walk away saying "That would work for me" unless you're in an extremely loud thrash metal band that doesn't ever use a P.A. I played in a 400 seat theater (350 seats occupied) last month. Not terribly deep, more high--two balconies. Everything went through the P.A. but I didn't want to--my rig sounded excellent and organic onstage. The soundman insisted as they were taking a feed off the board for a video crew but I had him keep it low in the room. There were as many as 14 musicians onstage, everything from vocalists to mic'd blues harmonica, a fully mic'd drum set, mic'd guitar amps, bass amp going into the P.A., acoustic piano, congas and timbales. Blues, latin jazz, funk and some rock. I wish it would have been possible to go 100% P.A. free with my rig. It didn't hurt the sound to go through the P.A. but I liked it better without it.

"1. if you're driving a sub with the mono out AND also sending to FOH ... you _______? - send the ssv3 mono out to the sub and your mixer out to FOH, or ? " That's how I would do it. The second question, the volume one--that's subjective. It's enough volume for me in rehearsals and every venue so far. I play in two groups regularly right now, a New Orleans r n b band and a blues group. Our drummer hits hard (same cat for both groups) and our guitarist aren't shy either. I've only needed to turn down, not up in rehearsals.

MotiDave--I use a small mixer (unpowered) when I need to send a signal to FOH. So far I've just sent stereo, though.

Well, at the risk of coming off like a Moonie or something, let me field one more of these types of comments: "The SS is a killer game changing stage amp but it's not going to replace 10K (or more) of high end stereo equipment in your home." Neither, honestly, would a well-mixed and mastered recording of a Fender Twin Reverb replace the visceral intensity of the same amp sitting in front of you played by a genius. If someone actually bought a live keyboard performance amp to recreate (or the gods forbid) replace your high end stereo system (and everything that goes into that like sitting in the perfect spot in a home theater massage chair with popcorn and a glass of merlot), then your expectations weren't realistic to begin with. Nothing sounds like an acoustic piano, played acoustically in a beautiful room by a killer player. Not even a well-mic'd piano in a beautiful room played by a killer player. The difference is that I never expect anything to sound like that--a Hammond B3 doesn't sound like a piano; a well-tuned set of Gretsch drums doesn't, and so on. But...as performers, we have to amplify our instruments somehow. Our options are pretty limited, even if you throw in everything you've ever tried or are likely to try in the next couple of years. Is it the same as listening with headphones at home? How could it? But was that anyone's goal in producing or buying this amp? Not mine--I just want my keys to sound extremely groovy to myself, the band and the audience in the venues where I typically play. It does that for me.

"As much as I like my SS + GK amp solution, I've wanted to say this for a while: The SpaceStation is just an amp." Well, of course it is. This is a thread to discuss a new amp. "It's a very good amp, not perfect (nor has Aspen ever claimed it was). I think it needs the bass amp I pair it with - some will disagree with this. It has a learning curve. I don't think it will replace traditional sound reinforcement in large venues. It's not magic. It won't solve the Greek / German Euro crisis." There are a million things it won't do, but it does what it sets out to do beautifully so who cares about what it can't do? "There have been a few times in this thread that the language has gotten to the point that it can create unrealistic expectations. I probably have contributed to that too, somewhere in this War and Peace novel." I've sung its praises a few times, but I speak directly and honestly. The way I feel playing it is the way I feel playing it. "The SS + GK is now my first KB amp solution, for all my gigs. It does a lot of things better than the other solutions I've tried." It actually does the things I need better than anything else I've tried. "But it's still just an amp." Of course. And an organ is just an organ, a guitar is just a guitar and so on. And my music is just my music, in the end. I doubt anyone is as pleased (or as disappointed occasionally) with what I play as I am. But man, do I like having the right tools to play with after all these years.

I wrote a post on the other stereo amp thread, and I think it's the best articulation I've written about my experience with the SS3. Forgive the duplication if you're reading both threads: At the outdoor gig I mentioned, I went back and forth between playing my SK1 and SS3 combo; and a recent-Roland weighted keyboard through a KB500 which then ran the FOH (all the other keyboardists were curious about my setup, so when they were sitting in I always offered to play the Roland). We can discuss these things academically of course, but on an emotional level it felt like someone had thrown a wet blanket over my soul when I tried to dig into the Roland/KB500 setup. A month earlier and I would have been mildly grateful that it was loud and barky enough to cut through the rest of the players. I would have registered that the sound wasn't exactly pleasing to the others or myself but I wouldn't have cared because what were my alternatives? But going back to my setup, I felt like I was providing a naturally atmospheric-- as opposed to directional--sound that wrapped itself around the band AND the audience. It is VERY different in that way, and it takes a little getting used to--I used to think of 'being loud enough' as simply being heard "well enough" as opposed to being enjoyable to hear. I used to use a personal stereo P.A. which was better-sounding than the Roland, Yamaha and motion Sound (2 models) I tested in my home. This got me through 10 years of gigs. Next up was to order a pair of powered monitors even though positioning was going to be a problem--who was going to hear the coolest sounds possible from my rig? Me? The band? Or the audience? In some settings, I would have had to choose. Having done that a little, I usually chose best for me, so I would play better and inspire the band, which hopefully inspired the audience. But since I've been playing with the SS3, I barely think about stuff like that. I know the other band members are stunned by how well they can hear the keys, even when I'm not playing loudly. I know from walking around the dance floor or the audience that the further away you are, the more impressive the clear and present sound is, so far true up to about 200 feet in fact. I've simply stopped looking (brooding) about keyboard amplification systems. Now I feel like I'm making music. The day may come when I feel the need to add a sub, but it's hard to imagine--I don't really enjoy playing so loud onstage that it hurts. It seems to me that the volume of even the r and b/blues projects I'm involved with right now is plenty loud. I don't play left hand bass, but when I play New Orleans-flavored funky piano, I of course have an active left hand at times (other times, I look like I've only got a right hand in videos!). Regardless, so far I've never felt there was anything lacking but a little more talent.

"In listening to my SS, there is no center. The sound is all around. No directional sound at all." I have to concur--well, if you stand directly in front or directly to the left or right, you might experience directional sound, but in general it's more like the atmosphere--it's all around you. That's a very great way to experience stereo keyboards in my opinion.

"I would guess that the guys telling Jazzooo to turn up either were closer to one or more other amps than his SS, or they were in the sweet spot of one or more other amps that just made them louder from where they were standing." FWIW, both were musicians who said the keys sounded great but were a little low, and both were on the side of the room with the guitar amp. I turned up a little, angled the SS3 away from the drummer a bit more and all was well. Too loud of band for me, but my rig help up anyway.

Gig report from last night--a new band, a New Orleans-flavored r n b quartet (my rig: Hammond SK1 and the SS3). Room: a loud and splashy bar restaurant that fits 150 but last night we had about 75. Guitar and bass through their amps and then into the FOH along with vocals and the kick drum; sound run by an incompetent fool. I was on the opposite side of the stage than I prefer (I was on stage left). Between the drummer and my amp was a mid sized bass amp. Still, the back of the side-ifring speaker was killing the drummer (whose back was against a reflective surface). I laid his cymbal case over the side of the amp and that helped. Same drummer, different room, different side of the stage? same problem but easily solved with the cymbal case or my trifold (didn't have it with me last night though). While he was telling me it was too loud, two musicians came up and said the band sounded great but the keys needed to come up a little!