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Which DAW Has the Best Bundled Plug-Ins? #3007820 09/12/19 08:20 PM
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Anderton Offline OP
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I'm asking because of a friend who wants to buy a DAW, but doesn't have bucks to then run out and get Waves, IK, NI, etc. stuff. I have so many third-party plug-ins, I've kind of lost track...I think MOTU DP has great amp sims, Studio One has a broad selection that do more than you might think, Logic comes with a ton of stuff but people complain about the plugs a lot, Cakewalk comes with that wonderful QuadCurve as well as the Tape and Console Emulators, Live has cool beat-oriented effects...tough choice. What do y'all think?

Re: Which DAW Has the Best Bundled Plug-Ins? [Re: Anderton] #3007845 09/12/19 11:41 PM
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That's a semi-complex question, of course. It depends on what his goals are. If he's EDM-ish, Ableton is a near-given, in part because its become an instrument powerhouse on top of everything else it does so well. I've been a happy Logic user for years, so here's the skinny, as of two builds back: The in-house sounds are reasonably broad, but also pretty basic. The money is in the synths, not the library. (See the one exception below.)

I partially look at them as supports for other instruments. (Ex: There is a nice choir in the classical section that I love to meld with synth choirs or strings.) The B-3 and EP plugs are comprehensive and perform well when minimally effected. (Purists can subjectively see the B3 as imperfect, but I've played the real thing and this take on it is respectable.)

The FM synth is frankly forgettable, IMO. If you really want to go there, many nice FM synths abound with enhancements such as added waveforms.

The EXS24 sampler is long in the tooth, but its more useful to me as a solid subtractive-style >player<. There are inexpensive third-party libraries that beef mine up substantially and the hardware I've Autosampled lifts it even further. It accepts SoundFont patches as well, which can appear in unexpected places. Its easy to feed!

The Mellotron plug is also very basic, offering mostly the Big Three of choir, flute and strings. Its workable at that level, but I took up M-Tron Pro as a real 'tron lover. Its parsecs ahead, with a monster library.

Sculpture is a capable physical modeler, but the GUI is from a 1972 French sci-fi movie. (The AAS Chromaphone 2 does it better and inexpensively.)

The simpler base synths are okay for dance/experimental, but its the ES2 3-oscillator VA that has the depth. Its a bit dated when compared with instruments from Arturia, U-he or Rob Papen, but you can lean on it for quite a while before you take the leap and add a newer VA. The filter array isn't very assertive, but the ES2 also records vector movement, offers a small mod matrix and includes a random patch generator! That last has become a rare feature, but its this synth's best secret weapon. Note that these instruments are well-tuned to the OS and are therefore low-CPU-load and fast-performing.

You can toss most of that commentary when you consider Alchemy. It comes with a 2000+ patch library out of the box, has four oscillators that will even accept your own WAV files (!), has on-board effects and rocks hard in general. It offers several forms of synthesis and I find it quite solid for everything short of orchestral sounds and specialty oddities like M-Tron. If you want to go there as well, it'll step up. I dropped pipe organ sounds into its four slots and massaged it into a real woofer tester.

That's a lot of verborrhea, but its fair. I also point to the excellent effects, with several very flexible reverbs and delays on offer and a classy EQ implementation I often ride by hand. I'm sometimes called upon to let a fussy section loop so that I can trim out a squeal or honk. Or accentuate one, of course. rawk eek

Hope that helps!


World's best synthesizer? It's not even the best synthesizer in The Beatles! ~ SpacehotelMusic

https://soundcloud.com/david-emm-1
Re: Which DAW Has the Best Bundled Plug-Ins? [Re: Anderton] #3007961 09/13/19 06:57 PM
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Do you consider Reason to be a DAW?

Re: Which DAW Has the Best Bundled Plug-Ins? [Re: RABid] #3007969 09/13/19 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by RABid
Do you consider Reason to be a DAW?


Reason was gonna be my answer. It comes with about every basic plug you could need and if you want additional “rack extensions” they are typically about 1/3 the price of VST plugins. I think it is a lot easier for music users as they way you route things is to just grab virtual cables and plug them in in just about any order you wish

Re: Which DAW Has the Best Bundled Plug-Ins? [Re: RABid] #3007974 09/13/19 08:21 PM
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Mike Rivers Offline
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Originally Posted by RABid
Do you consider Reason to be a DAW?


Sure, if it's a good tool for working on your kind of music.

Re: Which DAW Has the Best Bundled Plug-Ins? [Re: Anderton] #3008003 09/14/19 12:30 AM
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new release seems to be a good bang for the buck

Reason 11 will be available for purchase worldwide on September 25, 2019 at the following suggested retail pricing:

Reason 11 Intro: EUR €79 / USD $99

Reason Rack Plugin included
Includes 31 Devices: 11 x Instruments, 9 x Effects, 8 x Utilities, 3 x Players


A reason why I collect old keyboards is that I feel partly responsible for doing it, responsible for preserving history and being a custodian for these things
Plus, old gear has a story. I like that.
Re: Which DAW Has the Best Bundled Plug-Ins? [Re: Anderton] #3008125 09/15/19 05:23 PM
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Anderton Offline OP
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@David Emm - thanks for the comprehensive overview of Logic, it gives a really good summary of the pros and cons. I also agree with your assessment of Ableton Live, I think its effects are underrated because they don't have skeuomorphic 3D graphics. I particularly like that so much of them can beat-sync.

As to Reason, I think it's fair to call it a DAW...in fact you might consider it a suite of effects and virtual instruments, with a DAW wrapped around them smile It will be interesting to see whether a) people buy the plug-in, and b) whether this diminishes overall interest in ReWire.

Re: Which DAW Has the Best Bundled Plug-Ins? [Re: Anderton] #3008143 09/15/19 08:56 PM
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I didn't know people complained a lot about Logic plugins. A couple of my friends seem to like 'em, but there again, that's hardly a good sample size! grin

It's always fun to blast Pro Tools, but the plugins that come with it seem to be good quality, such as some of the AIR stuff.

How is Reaper?

Re: Which DAW Has the Best Bundled Plug-Ins? [Re: KenElevenShadows] #3008346 09/16/19 10:39 PM
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Anderton Offline OP
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Originally Posted by KenElevenShadows
I didn't know people complained a lot about Logic plugins. A couple of my friends seem to like 'em, but there again, that's hardly a good sample size! grin


A lot of people complain about any software that's "old." For example, I find the Sonitus presets that Cakewalk includes unique and powerful. They're from 2004 and the UI isn't sexy...then again, whenever I want to demo how something works, their UI is so drop-dead simple people "get" it.

Quote
It's always fun to blast Pro Tools, but the plugins that come with it seem to be good quality, such as some of the AIR stuff.


AIR was the result of people complaining about Pro Tools' plug-ins smile

Quote
How is Reaper?


Whenever I try to use it, my head explodes. I just can't seem to click with it.

Re: Which DAW Has the Best Bundled Plug-Ins? [Re: Anderton] #3008536 09/18/19 01:59 AM
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I like Cubase Elements but I don't care for the bundled instrument plugins. The drum one can be useful for layering. But for effects/mixing tools, there's a lot of good stuff there. You do have to go up to Elements for sidechaining though if you want that. The routing in the lower versions makes it impossible apparently. ALTHOUGH I have found that Studio One Prime (free) does let you sidechain so you can probably export your track from Cubase, sidechain it in Studio One, and bring it back into Cubase. Not as flexible but it should do the trick. I have yet to actually do it as I don't have anything currently that needs it but I think it's an option.

I wonder about the stuff that comes with Mackie Tracktion. Seems like a nice selection, but I don't feel like clogging up my computer with yet another DAW when I don't need it and the computer is already pretty full (and that's with externals for most audio stuff - it's also the family computer).


Yamaha: Motif XF8/YS200/CVP-305/CLP-130/YPG-235/PSR-295/PSS-470
Korg: Krome 61
Roland: JV-1000
Casio: CT-370
Kimball Valencia/Broadway/Conn 465 w/144 spkrs/WCOC Reed Organ/Titano Virtuoso Converter
Re: Which DAW Has the Best Bundled Plug-Ins? [Re: Anderton] #3008809 09/20/19 12:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Anderton
Originally Posted by KenElevenShadows



Quote
It's always fun to blast Pro Tools, but the plugins that come with it seem to be good quality, such as some of the AIR stuff.


AIR was the result of people complaining about Pro Tools' plug-ins smile


I was hoping as much. They were horrible before AIR for the most part. Or supremely characterless. That's how I remember it, anyway. I began using third-party plugins right away.

Re: Which DAW Has the Best Bundled Plug-Ins? [Re: Anderton] #3009435 09/24/19 05:02 PM
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Disclaimer, I do not work for or have any connections (other than being a customer) with any of the companies mentioned below. I got a free version of Tracktion many years ago when I purhased a Mackie interface and stuck with it. I find it very easy to learn and use so I stay.

Waveform, the Standard Pack. $259.00.
https://www.tracktion.com/products/waveform

The DAW Essentials includes some nice bread and butter plugins.
https://www.tracktion.com/products/daw-essentials-collection

Master Mix provides a nice multi-plugin interface with some excellent presets.
https://www.tracktion.com/products/master-mix

If you use a Mac (I do), there is a selection of AU plug-ins provided with the system software. I use the 31 band EQ and the NewPitch plugins often.

Voxengo has some good free plugins too. https://www.voxengo.com

Both Native Instruments and IK Multimedia offer useful instruments, amps, etc. for free as well.

Last but not least, ALL of this stuff goes on sale from time to time. I purchased SampleTank 3 full version for $99 when they blew it out before introducing SampleTank 4. Then when SampleTank 4 SE went on sale for $70 or so, I got it and now I have more or less the improved (lots of bug fixes!) version with more sounds than I will ever have time to get to.

Last edited by KuruPrionz; 09/24/19 05:04 PM. Reason: Disclaimer

There is never enough time to be in a hurry...
Re: Which DAW Has the Best Bundled Plug-Ins? [Re: KuruPrionz] #3009500 09/24/19 09:58 PM
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Mike Rivers Offline
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Tracktion's standard level is $259? Great googly-moogly! They used to give it away free, with about a $59 upgrade to the full version. I guess Prism's marketing is very, very, good for them. I never cared for the user interface myself, but the guys who got it out to the world are good guys and believe in their products.

Re: Which DAW Has the Best Bundled Plug-Ins? [Re: Mike Rivers] #3009690 09/25/19 10:17 PM
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Hi Mike,
Tracktion 7 is still completely free and is a full featured DAW. It is no longer possible to upgrade from Tracktion 7 free version, they will upgrade if you bought it.
Waveform 10 is also available without Master Mix and DAW Essentials for $119 with an upgrade price of $69.

Like all software companies, they have sales. I upgraded from Waveform 9 to Waveform 10 for $49. They also activated DAW Essentials for me for free since I've been using Tracktion/Waveform from version 3.
I like using it, used to use MOTU DP and hated the interface. This is much more straightforward.


There is never enough time to be in a hurry...
Re: Which DAW Has the Best Bundled Plug-Ins? [Re: KuruPrionz] #3009694 09/25/19 10:24 PM
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Anderton Offline OP
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Originally Posted by KuruPrionz
I got a free version of Tracktion many years ago when I purhased a Mackie interface and stuck with it.


Tracktion was ahead of its time in some ways, like being able to put parallel effects in the inserts. It seemed like one of those "can't get a break" kind of products, so I'm glad to see it has clawed its way back.

You're very right about free stuff. At one point, you could get free, limited amp sims from Line 6, Peavey, Native Instruments, and IK Multimedia. Then there were the public domains ones...you could build up quite a repertoire of amp sims without spending a dime. smile

Re: Which DAW Has the Best Bundled Plug-Ins? [Re: Anderton] #3009755 09/26/19 05:38 AM
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The most important feature of Tracktion/Waveform in my mind is that you can click on any part of the single tab recording interface and everything you will need to work with that aspect appears in either the rectangle below the actual tracks or the rectangle to the left of it.

As soon as you click anywhere else, it changes to that set of options. So, it puts the toys away and brings out new toys and you dont' end up with a stack of palettes with this and that all over the place.
Which is what drove me away from Digital Performer.

There are still LOTS of good free plugins. Google "Best free plugins" and you will find all sort of "Top Ten Best Free Plugins of 20XX" lists. Some of those are pretty awesome, some not so much but you can always delete
I still have quite a few of those. The free Guitar Rig, Amplitube and Revalver (Peavey) guitar amp sims are all nice to have and can sound great with a DI'd electric guitar.

As with anything, sometimes you have to spend some time listening and tweaking to get a good sound. Presets can be intended for another purpose, if you know what you are hearing you can transform to better.


There is never enough time to be in a hurry...
Re: Which DAW Has the Best Bundled Plug-Ins? [Re: Anderton] #3009766 09/26/19 10:09 AM
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Speaking of free plug-ins, iZotope Ozone 8 Elements (the entry level version) is available as a FREE download through October 2, at which time they'll be announcing Ozone 9. I'm not sure if I'll ever use it (I want a free copy of the full Restoration tools) but I got mine.

Re: Which DAW Has the Best Bundled Plug-Ins? [Re: Anderton] #3010145 09/28/19 03:27 PM
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Disclaimer - I have zero business affilitations with IK Multimedia. I am a customer only, have SampleTank 4 and Amplitude 4 and I use them.

Plug ins - IK Multimedia is having a sale. They hit the final tier yesterday. The Sale will end on Monday so we have 3 days more or less (less).
Buy 1 get 10 Free.

https://www.ikmultimedia.com/pickandmix/

I've done some research. List below of the my choices, all get good reviews online. I like that the pallets are resizable, nice feature.
First choice is TRackS 5. It comes with 9 of the offered plugins, a no brainer. That makes it "Buy 1 get 19 Free" for an initial $150.
Comes to $7.50 per plug in.

Still figuring out which two from the list below I am going to delete.
Cheers, Kuru

Fender Collection 2
Ampeg SVX 2
TRacks 5 - Included Master Match, Dyna Mu, EQual, One, Meter, CTR Compressor, Ctr Multi-Band Limiter, CTR Clipper, CTR EQ
Tape Machine - 24
TRackS Leslie
Saturator X
Stealth Limiter
Master EQ 432
Prrecision Comp/ Limit
De-Esser
British Channel
CSR Reverb


There is never enough time to be in a hurry...
Re: Which DAW Has the Best Bundled Plug-Ins? [Re: Anderton] #3010169 09/28/19 07:05 PM
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IMHO IK's plug-in effects are underrated. Only you can decide what to delete, but your choices are good. If you play bass, the SVX2 package is incredible. The Fender is good too, if you're into the sound of Fender amps.

Re: Which DAW Has the Best Bundled Plug-Ins? [Re: Anderton] #3010218 09/29/19 07:26 AM
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I made choices and jumped in. Looking for a way to delete all the plugins that I do not own, I am now I am seeing the apparently endless forum complaints about IK Multimedia loading all their options in user's plug-in hosts (TrackS 5 and Amplitube 4).
Waveform also sees them as stand-alone plugins so I deleted everything but the AU plugins that I own and a few VST3 that I own that are not offered in AU.

It looks like I'll have to reinstall Amplitube from the ground up, I don't have the Fender or Ampeg amps that I chose. I did file a support claim earlier, when they get back to me I may have everything figured out or they may get an earful.

Native instruments Guitar Rig 5 loads a tone of amps they don't let you use but they mark them with red so you don't bother opening them.

Most of the plugins are for TrackS 5 and they do all work as stand alones so I may just delete the TrackS from my DAW plugin list and build my own patches for now. I'll come up with a way to make them work.
Anyway, here is my final list. The asterisks were how I marked that I downloaded them.

*Fender Collection 2
*Ampeg SVX 2
*TRacks 5
Included Mater Match
Dyna Mu
EQual
One
Meter
CTR Compressor
Ctr Multi-Band Limiter
CTR Clipper
CTR EQ

*TRackS Leslie
*Saturator X
*Stealth Limiter
*Master EQ 432
Precision Comp/ Limit
*De-Esser
*Tape Machine 80 (Studer 2" 30ips model).
*CSR Reverb


There is never enough time to be in a hurry...
Re: Which DAW Has the Best Bundled Plug-Ins? [Re: KuruPrionz] #3010236 09/29/19 01:21 PM
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Mike Rivers Offline
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Originally Posted by KuruPrionz
I made choices and jumped in. Looking for a way to delete all the plugins that I do not own, I am now I am seeing the apparently endless forum complaints about IK Multimedia loading all their options in user's plug-in hosts (TrackS 5 and Amplitube 4).


This just in from IK - If you're using a Mac, be careful what you update and delete:

"Apple recently announced plans to release macOS 10.15 Catalina. This update to their operating system brings features, fixes, and updates, but will also affect your use of IK and other audio software that you rely on.

We urge all IK users not to install macOS 10.15. Our team is currently working on full compatibility for our products. "

As far as loading options that you haven't bought, one approach used by several software companies is to give you everything and then sell you authorizations that enable selected options/plug-ins. It lets you demo a program on your own system before purchasing it. Every now and then I get an e-mail from MixBus offering a free plug-in. The instructions are that the plug-in is already installed, just put the (free or bought, whatever) authorization code where it's expected and the plug-in will appear on the list of what's available.

Re: Which DAW Has the Best Bundled Plug-Ins? [Re: Mike Rivers] #3010252 09/29/19 03:54 PM
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Thank Mike, they sent all customers an email with the quoted warning.

2 days ago I made a bootable copy of my hard drive. I will re-copy it with the new plug-ins. That BU drive and my internet connection (I use cable for a reason, you can disconnect easily!!!) will never coincide. I've set my preferences both in the App Store and on System preferences to prevent automatic updates. Apple is sneaky and persistent so it may get updated against my will.

If so, I can try two things.
1. Boot off the BU drive and copy it all back to the internal drive (2014 Macbook Pro). Reset all settings and hope they go away.
2. As part of my recording preparation, unplug the internet connection and boot off the BU. It has all my software on it, fully functional.

Eventually there will be updates for the problems. IKM is not the only affected vendor, Native Instruments sent me a similar notice.

My brother wrote code for decades, he used to say "On the cutting edge, there will be blood." So true!!!


There is never enough time to be in a hurry...
Re: Which DAW Has the Best Bundled Plug-Ins? [Re: Anderton] #3010255 09/29/19 04:06 PM
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In other news, I have the guitar amp plugins up and running in Amplitube. All is well.

And yes, I do like the sound of Fender amps. I like the simple rawness of the Tweed amps and the Fender Collection 2 also has a BFSR with nice tremolo and reverb.
It's retro but there s no reason it can't be part of a more modern sound.

Guitar is my primary instrument, it's nice to have these tools.
I also play bass, haven't explored the Ampeg stuff but I'm sure that will be nice as well.

Waveform did not ask for a rescan after I deleted plugins from the plugins list. So I've cleaned up the mess for the most part. I only have a very few amps in Amplitube, I don't need more. I don't use the clones of cheesy pedals, not my thing. So it's easy to keep track there.

TrackS is another story, out of some 38 plugins available I have 19. Keeping my list on the desktop for reference. I'll figure it out and make presets as I go, using only authorized plugins. Once that's done I can just surf presets and tweak as needed. That should keep the plugin barrage at bay.


There is never enough time to be in a hurry...
Re: Which DAW Has the Best Bundled Plug-Ins? [Re: Anderton] #3010258 09/29/19 05:21 PM
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I'm not sure where IK installs plug-ins on the Mac, but in Windows, you can just delete the DLLs for plug-ins you don't use. Universal Audio is another company that installs everything; after downloading their software, I delete all the plug-ins that aren't authorized.

Re: Which DAW Has the Best Bundled Plug-Ins? [Re: Anderton] #3010279 09/29/19 09:06 PM
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Forum searches on deleting, my own searches (including for .dll) have all proven futile.
Amplitube plugins appear to be housed in the host plug-in and TRackS the same although they also appear as .vst, .vst3 and/or .au files depending on creation date.
I did delete quite a few of those. I don't have to use TRackS to use the plugins, I can just drop them in and go.
I do like some of the features in TRackS though and have a second screen to keep the palette off the DAW.

In the end, as long as I create my own presets using only the stuff I own I should be able to avoid dealing with the mess.

The point I really want to clean up is the pop up menu that appears when you drag/drop a plugin into a track on Waveform.
I have LOTS of stuff I don't use, including Apple .au files (that they will not allow you to delete!!!). I LOVE the Apple NewPitch tool, I can go to decimal points in pitch shifting with single digits representing one cent. So it is more precise than most of us could ever hear - myself included. Love some well pitched detuning, in stereo and animated in and out as needed it can really liven up a track. Some of the other Apple plugins are not really special and I won't miss ignoring them.

Since Waveform remembers that I deleted stuff and does not ask to rescan it, that should work pretty well. I'm sure I'll have to re-do it at some point although I am reaching the "too many similar plugin, choose a favorite or two and get rid of the extras" point. Less is more.

A few hours now deciding what is what will save many hours moving forward.


There is never enough time to be in a hurry...

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