Advice for string gauge on 2 baritones tuned to "A" and "B"

[Mark Schmieder]

I was going to put D'addario 13's on my Hagstrom Viking Baritone, that currently has GHS 13's, but someone said that GHS Boomers have much higher tension than D'addario EXL's.

 

If that's so, then I'm probably better off with D'addario 14's, but it's hard to find detailed info on GHS strings vs. D'addario's well-documented site.

 

The hope was that I wouldn't need setup work when making the switch, as I figured the tension would be about the same except for the low "B" string.

 

I definitely don't want any lower tension than the instrument has already. But I'd hate to have to tune it up to "C".

[Larryz]

+1 on D'Addario, I wish all string makers would list the tensions and gauges like they do for each set of strings on the package and on their sites. You can check out Round, Stainless, Flat, Acoustic, plain, wound, etc., at a glance. I did a study a long time ago and posted the results on the forum comparing flat wounds to acoustic sets. The flat wounds in the same gauge had less tension than the acoustic sets (which really surprised me). Who would put flat wounds on an acoustic anyway? Well, someone who likes to experiment and not wreck a guitar...

 

Right now I'm running the nickel 10-50 GHS Rollerwound on two acoustics, a solid body, an archtop and a semi. All have different necks, scale lengths, feel, tension, etc., using the exact same set of strings. Even the acoustics sound great (maybe a tad less volume unplugged), and they don't turn your fingers black or need any coating. Playing them reminds me of playing my Nylon guitars where the 3 plain strings have no squeak. The 3 wound strings are similar to flats (or polished recording strings on a Nylon) having a little less squeak which most jazzers prefer.

 

 

Anyway, I think you can change 13's from one brand to another without much change in tension depending on how close the gauges are and the windings. You may have to adjust the intonation if there are minor gauge changes on one or more strings...it cost money to experiment, but it's fun and it can be rewarding. Each guitar will feel a little different even with the same exact set of strings. Go for what you like and what feels best...going to heavier or lighter sets may also involve a truss rod adjustment. My tech does it all for me when I have mine set up (i.e. intonation and truss rod adjustments, fret cleaning, fretboard oil, changing strings, pickup adjustments, jack repairs, etc.). I just have fun with it and supply the strings!

[Mark Schmieder]

I just got back my Danelectro Baritone with the 14's. Haven't plugged it in yet, but acoustically, it does feel in between the 13's at "B" vs. "A", which is what I had hoped for. We'll see how it sings once plugged in.

[Mark Schmieder]

With the 14's and the setup, the Danelectro sounds and feels very consistent across the neck and up and down its full length. It doesn't handle bends all that well, which is what you would think a Danelectro would excel at, but the Hagstrom does, so that's fine. It just doesn't have enough sheen for the bends to cut through and make a difference.

 

With the restringing, I have reinforced my opinion that the Danelectro is best for single-line work overall, as it's a bit dark sounding -- almost like a Telecaster Baritone. The Hagstrom is a bit better at chords, which surprised me earlier but is still the case -- maybe due to the hollow body.

 

These two instruments complement each other very well as they have almost no overlap in their sound, other than similar range. Both are bargains too. And I imagine the Danelectro will sound better on other amps -- I have only tried it on the Fender Deluxe Reverb so far. I suspect it will like my Vox.

[Mark Schmieder]

Wow, COVID sure interrupted a lot of things, as it took 4-½ years for me to get back to this baritone guitar project!

 

I don’t think I’ve changed as many strings at once, these past few days, at any point in my life! I’m exhausted! Bass strings are easy, as is anything from Fender, but some brands make it hard! Especially the Hagstrom Baritone Arch Top Hollow Body Guitar.

 

Interestingly, the comparison I did before the string changes concluded that the Danelectro is the best baritone, despite having a plastic (masonite) body! But after all, they invented the instrument, back in the 50’s. The one I bought while stuff was in storage, was a “for sure” up for sale item, until I changed the strings. That’s the Squier Cabronita Telecaster Baritone.

 

After the string change, the Telecaster Baritone came out on top, followed by the Danelectro. The Hagstrom, though the first one whose strings I changed and briefly atop the pack, is the most likely to get sold. But I really need to record these instruments to make final decisions, as well as try bigger amps thasn the 8” Fender Champ that has nothing more than a volume knob.

 

What stayed consistent, is that the Hagstrom MUST be tuned to B as it is too flabby tuned to A, regardless of strings, and the Danelectro MUST be tuned to A (as it was designed to do) as it loses all character if tuned up to B. The Hagstrom sucks finger-style, whereas the long scale Danelectro is great with fingers or plectrums. The Tele Bari is in the middle on all accounts.

 

All three had D’addario round wounds before. Always a good place to start, to learn an instrument’s core characteristics. I tried SIT on the Hagstrom and it made as big of a difference there as it did last night on my Yamaha 5-string bass. Next up was the Tele Bari, which received expensive Pyramid strings, and wow did that ever solve ALL of its problems! The Dano got a Curt Mangan set.

 

This is my first time trying Curt Mangan strings. They are their own thing but are closer to D’addario than the other new ones, tonally, yet they are more focused and more consistent in production and have a better feel overall. Depending on how my way-overdue final cuts turn out (I did placeholder baritone parts on a dozen songs years ago), I may try Pyramid on the Dano next.

 

I’m not even sure I’ll end up playing in A when doing baritone parts, as I am no longer in a role of producing California metal bands who down-tune to D (making “A” a better baritone tuning), but it is the traditional tuning for 50’s/60’s country, western swing, surf, etc. And the Dano in A is by far the best with fingers, feeling almost like playing a bass.

 

Bass players tend to prefer baritones in B because it closely matches a five-string bass’s tuning, whereas guitarists find the A tuning easier because it’s like an octave-down guitar that loses its bottom E string. Interestingly, the baritone guitar is said to be an electric cousin to the Bajo Sexto/Quinto in Mexico (I have one), but those have octave-doubled string pairs. I'm putting mine up for sale tomorrow as I find the string spacing too uncomfortable and don't really feel it has a sound that I need even on high strings.

 

It’s just as well that the string changes are causing a delay in picking a baritone guitar to sell, as they are way less popular even than basses. Maybe soon I’ll have time to go through some percussion and guitars, where there’s a large enough market that I’m likely to have better luck selling things than the slow targets that are keyboards/synths, wind instruments, basses, baritones. I do have some acoustic guitars for sale now, but haven't gone through the electric yet. Those are of course the easiest sales!

[Scott Fraser]

Interesting observations all around. I have the Hagstrom baritone and, though I have no other baritones to compare with, I've always felt it to be interesting but not essential. I see Squier Tele baritones up for sale on Craigslist somewhat regularly, & it's good to know that's a contender.

A side note: Masonite isn't plastic, it's a hardboard made of wood fiber, which has been steam cooked & pressure molded into panels. Extremely hard & rather heavy, but with no grain orientation.

[CEB]

I can sure see that if the Hags today are like mine.  I play this early 70s model when I want want Les Paul like,  The break angle behind the bridge is so gradual everything feels slinky.  Almost like a trapeze bridge.

[Mark Schmieder]

11 hours ago, Scott Fraser said:

Interesting observations all around. I have the Hagstrom baritone and, though I have no other baritones to compare with, I've always felt it to be interesting but not essential. I see Squier Tele baritones up for sale on Craigslist somewhat regularly, & it's good to know that's a contender.

A side note: Masonite isn't plastic, it's a hardboard made of wood fiber, which has been steam cooked & pressure molded into panels. Extremely hard & rather heavy, but with no grain orientation.

 

Scott, that's what I thought until I saw an article that said otherwise, but we all know how trustworthy the internet is for facts! On the other hand, there's another instrument (not a rock instrument; I can't remember off-hand what it is) that I recently saw discussed as being mostly plastic with recycled wood fiber and possibly not being honestly marketed as such. My recollection is that Masonite is a trademark of Danelectro, so it's possible that the exact makeup is a "trade secret", at least at the level of details?

[Mark Schmieder]

10 hours ago, CEB said:

I can sure see that if the Hags today are like mine.  I play this early 70s model when I want want Les Paul like,  The break angle behind the bridge is so gradual everything feels slinky.  Almost like a trapeze bridge.

 

Completely different animal. I've never tried a Hagstrom solid body, except for my 8-string bass that I have up for sale. I know they get good reviews for everything they make, but I sold the 12-string archtop within a week of buying it as it sounded aggressive no matter what I did; whereas the baritone (theoretically the same spec-wise as the 12-string!) if anything seems a bit muted in its expressive range, even though one would expect otherwise from an archtop.

[KuruPrionz]

On 8/19/2023 at 9:26 PM, Mark Schmieder said:

 

Scott, that's what I thought until I saw an article that said otherwise, but we all know how trustworthy the internet is for facts! On the other hand, there's another instrument (not a rock instrument; I can't remember off-hand what it is) that I recently saw discussed as being mostly plastic with recycled wood fiber and possibly not being honestly marketed as such. My recollection is that Masonite is a trademark of Danelectro, so it's possible that the exact makeup is a "trade secret", at least at the level of details?

Decades ago, we used Masonite for all sorts of things. Dad was a carpenter, he built the home I was raised in from the ground up and the siding was all Masonite. It's MUCH older than the Danelectro company and the all the newer Danos I've seen have plywood tops. The Danos from the 50's and 60's had Masonite tops and backs. I've owned a few of those. The first Masonite factory was built in 1925.

https://www.zippia.com/masonite-careers-7156/history/

[KuruPrionz]

I've got a Tele baritone that I built from parts. The neck is a Warmoth, scale length is 28 5/8", it has 24 frets and you can just screw it onto a Tele or a Strat body and intonation adjustments are well within the range of Fender bridges. I tune it to B, would have to go to a larger gauge string to do A but I am considering it because it seems to work better in A for how I play and my singing range. A "G shape" cowboy chord is C when it's tune to A, that's a great key for my voice. In B the same shape would be a D, just a bit on the high side. Pickups are an EMG SA neck and 85 bridge. Great baritone, solid as a rock!

[Mark Schmieder]

Ironically while checking the almost non-existent market for electric (vs. acoustic) 12-strings today, I discovered a new D'angelico thinline semi-hollowbody baritone guitar with P-90's and think it likely I'll buy one and then sell both the Hagstrom and the Tele. It's a short scale (26.75") baritone -- the Danelectro is long scale at 30".

 

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SSDxBaSH--dangelico-deluxe-ss-baritone-semi-hollowbody-electric-guitar-satin-honey

 

I had tried the earlier solid body D'angelico Atlantic baritone last year or the year before, with humbuckers, and despised it. It reminded me of the PRS model that I hate so much. I'm not a metal player and want my instruments to all have wide dynamic range and sensitivity to playing. I have a D'angelico EXL-1, so I trust this new SS Baritone.

[KuruPrionz]

On 8/23/2023 at 8:46 PM, KuruPrionz said:

I've got a Tele baritone that I built from parts. The neck is a Warmoth, scale length is 28 5/8", it has 24 frets and you can just screw it onto a Tele or a Strat body and intonation adjustments are well within the range of Fender bridges. I tune it to B, would have to go to a larger gauge string to do A but I am considering it because it seems to work better in A for how I play and my singing range. A "G shape" cowboy chord is C when it's tune to A, that's a great key for my voice. In B the same shape would be a D, just a bit on the high side. Pickups are an EMG SA neck and 85 bridge. Great baritone, solid as a rock!

Before I put new strings on it, I tried just tuning it down to A. I like that because a C chord is a "G" shape instead of an "F" shape and C is a good key for my vocal range. 

Bridge pickup is an EMG, I forget if its an 81 or and 85 and the color of the lettering is gone - maybe it's an HB since I think those just had the EMG stamped into the plastic cover and left black. Anyway, it's twangy!!! A baritone should not sound like a bass guitar, different instrument. 

[Mark Schmieder]

Yep, I used to think a baritone should sound like a "lead bass" when you may have two different low frequency contrapuntal lines, and though I may occasionally do that, I realize now that it's mostly about the twang. 🙂 I also prefer it in the role usually assigned to short scale tic-tac bass.

[KuruPrionz]

37 minutes ago, Mark Schmieder said:

Yep, I used to think a baritone should sound like a "lead bass" when you may have two different low frequency contrapuntal lines, and though I may occasionally do that, I realize now that it's mostly about the twang. 🙂 I also prefer it in the role usually assigned to short scale tic-tac bass.

Glen Campbell had it right all those decades ago, the solo on Wichita Lineman is a Fender 6 string bass with twangy pickups and round wound strings played with a pick. 

Other examples abound. Bass is bass, baritone is baritone. 

[Mark Schmieder]

36 minutes ago, KuruPrionz said:

Glen Campbell had it right all those decades ago, the solo on Wichita Lineman is a Fender 6 string bass with twangy pickups and round wound strings played with a pick. 

Other examples abound. Bass is bass, baritone is baritone. 

 

Can't argue with the Wrecking Crew!

[Caevan O’Shite]

1 hour ago, KuruPrionz said:

Glen Campbell had it right all those decades ago, the solo on Wichita Lineman is a Fender 6 string bass with twangy pickups and round wound strings played with a pick. 

Other examples abound. Bass is bass, baritone is baritone. 

 

1 hour ago, Mark Schmieder said:

 

Can't argue with the Wrecking Crew!

Indeed. I want a Baritone Guitar to sound like a big burly twangy low-down deep-tuned guitar. Not a Soprano or Piccolo bass.

[Mark Schmieder]

My D'angelico SS Baritone Semi-hollow Electric Guitar should arrive on Sunday. I expect I'll sell the Tele and the Hagstrom afterwards. The Dano is for traditional cowboy bari parts, and my other bari is for jazz, metal, other modern stuff. I don't like 7-string guitars for such purposes.

[Mark Schmieder]

 

Wow, the D'angelico Deluxe SS Baritone is killer, and the known crack in the P-90 cover ($400 discount!) can probably be ignored for now as it is very shallow and doesn’t affect the pickup’s sound at all.

 

I just spent 90 minutes playing every style imaginable, and am blown away. It works well finger-style or with a plectrum, single-note or chords, every genre.

 

The only thing I’m not sure about is the strings, as the D’angelico zinc-covered strings sound great but this might be a custom set not available for order. My caliper indicates these are 14’s, but they don’t sell anything thicker than 13’s on their website, so I’m confused.

 

Due to the short 26.75" scale, I’ll probably use 14’s. I'm going to compare to my other three baritones now and see if I'd want to use S.I.T., Pyramid, or Curt Mangan. Presumably the sound won't change significantly with standard nickel-wound strings.

[Caevan O’Shite]

6 hours ago, Mark Schmieder said:

The only thing I’m not sure about is the strings, as the D’angelico zinc-covered strings sound great but this might be a custom set not available for order. My caliper indicates these are 14’s, but they don’t sell anything thicker than 13’s on their website, so I’m confused.

 

Due to the short 26.75" scale, I’ll probably use 14’s. I'm going to compare to my other three baritones now and see if I'd want to use S.I.T., Pyramid, or Curt Mangan. Presumably the sound won't change significantly with standard nickel-wound strings.

Contact D’Addario, who makes those "Electrozinc" zinc-coated round-wound electric guitar string strings for D’Angelico. They must have made the strings that are on your guitar, if those are the original, stock strings that it came with...

[Mark Schmieder]

I'm fairly confident these are regular D'addario EXL157's. As mine is a demo model, it probably got re-strung. The strings feel the same to me as my last remaining EXL sets on standard guitars (I have moved away from EXL's recently). I'll probably slap my extra Pyramid set on this baby. But I might order more S.I.T. strings, as they're a bit smoother. The Curt Mangans on my Dano are the smoothest of all, but I like to have different strings on each instrument, to maximize the sonic palette.

[Mark Schmieder]

What an amazing instrument! The others don't come close, but out of caution I will hang on to the Danelectro a little longer, until I do some studio work, as it is tuned to "A" and also may do a better job on super-trebly sounds due to being a flat-top design (I hesitate to call it a solid body guitar as I think it is hollow inside).

 

I down-tuned the D'angelico to "A" but like it better in "B". Even so, it takes to "A" tuning fine, unlike the Telecaster or Hagstrom.

 

The articulateness of the D'angelico is amazing, but you can drive it hard as well and make it woofy if you like. I think there's slightly less difference between the two single-pickup positions than on the Danelectro, hence my caution in only putting the other two up for sale for now. I tried every style imaginable, and it's great with fingers as well.

[Scott Fraser]

Great that the D'Angelico is turning out to be a real winner in baritonia. Of course, at about 5 times the price of the others, it darn well ought to. I'm approximately happy with my Hagstrom baritone, but I can imagine selling it in a heartbeat if I got my hands on that D'Angelico.

[Mark Schmieder]

4 hours ago, Scott Fraser said:

Great that the D'Angelico is turning out to be a real winner in baritonia. Of course, at about 5 times the price of the others, it darn well ought to. I'm approximately happy with my Hagstrom baritone, but I can imagine selling it in a heartbeat if I got my hands on that D'Angelico.

 

You would; trust me. 🙂 Being an arch-top, the D'angelico comes closest to the Hagstrom in overall timbre and dimensionality of sound, but it is way more versatile, more detailed, organic, three-dimensional, even quacky if you want, and reacts well to finger-style playing when you need to go that route. Also much easier to barre.

[KuruPrionz]

5 hours ago, Mark Schmieder said:

What an amazing instrument! The others don't come close, but out of caution I will hang on to the Danelectro a little longer, until I do some studio work, as it is tuned to "A" and also may do a better job on super-trebly sounds due to being a flat-top design (I hesitate to call it a solid body guitar as I think it is hollow inside).

 

I down-tuned the D'angelico to "A" but like it better in "B". Even so, it takes to "A" tuning fine, unlike the Telecaster or Hagstrom.

 

The articulateness of the D'angelico is amazing, but you can drive it hard as well and make it woofy if you like. I think there's slightly less difference between the two single-pickup positions than on the Danelectro, hence my caution in only putting the other two up for sale for now. I tried every style imaginable, and it's great with fingers as well.

I used to have an Alvarez acoustic electric 8 string baritone. It was tuned to A. The strings were bronze wound and the two low strings had large winds. I tried some other strings but the intonation was way off on those and the sound of sliding a finger on the original strings was horrendous. The body was bigger than I care for as well so I put the original strings back on it and sold it. 

 

I have a baritone Tele with a 24 fret Warmoth neck. The scale is a good bit over 28". I took a set of medium electric guitar strings, put them on one string higher and didn't use the first string. The local Guitar Center had a selection of Ernie Ball wound singles so I got a thick one - .072 or .068, something like that. Recently I tuned it down from B to A and it works fine. That has an EMG SA in the neck and an EMG 85 hum bucker in the bridge. The bridge is aftermarket and has enough "throw" to be able to fully intonate all six strings. It's twangy!!! That's the tone I associate with baritone guitar, a twang like the solo on Wichita Lineman (which is Glen Campbell playing a Fender 6 string bass with round wounds).

[Caevan O’Shite]

4 hours ago, KuruPrionz said:

 I have a baritone Tele with a 24 fret Warmoth neck. That has an EMG SA in the neck and an EMG 85 hum bucker in the bridge.

A great pickup combination! Do you also have the SPC on that guitar? What about their EXG?
 

 

4 hours ago, KuruPrionz said:

It's twangy!!! That's the tone I associate with baritone guitar...

Your thinking is spot-on correct there...
 

 

4 hours ago, KuruPrionz said:

...a twang like the solo on "Wichita Lineman" (which is Glen Campbell playing a Fender 6 string bass with round wounds).

Sooo CLASSIC and GREAT.   

[Scott Fraser]

11 hours ago, Mark Schmieder said:

 

You would; trust me. 🙂 Being an arch-top, the D'angelico comes closest to the Hagstrom in overall timbre and dimensionality of sound, but it is way more versatile, more detailed, organic, three-dimensional, even quacky if you want, and reacts well to finger-style playing when you need to go that route. Also much easier to barre.

Those are all the right descriptive words, in my book, and as an exclusive finger picker, this calls to me.

[KuruPrionz]

7 hours ago, Caevan O’Shite said:

A great pickup combination! Do you also have the SPC on that guitar? What about their EXG?
 

 

Your thinking is spot-on correct there...
 

 

Sooo CLASSIC and GREAT.   

No SPC, that rolls off trebles and boosts mids, I like the trebles. Great for a Strat or Tele for solo work (I have them in mine!) but maybe not so great for a baritone. 

EXG boosts bass and treble response, don't want a bass boost and it's easy to do anyway with amp EQ if you need it.

 

In my mind, the baritone lives in the mids and highs. 

The pitches are lower than guitar but not as low as a bass. It needs to occupy it's own territory. 

Here's some classic baritone tones - it cuts through the music by out=twanging everything else. 

 

[Mark Schmieder]

13 hours ago, Scott Fraser said:

Those are all the right descriptive words, in my book, and as an exclusive finger picker, this calls to me.

 

I'd still say the Danelectro long scale batritone is top of the pack for strictly finger-picking. The extra scale helps in that regard.

[Mark Schmieder]

12 hours ago, KuruPrionz said:

No SPC, that rolls off trebles and boosts mids, I like the trebles. Great for a Strat or Tele for solo work (I have them in mine!) but maybe not so great for a baritone. 

EXG boosts bass and treble response, don't want a bass boost and it's easy to do anyway with amp EQ if you need it.

 

In my mind, the baritone lives in the mids and highs. 

The pitches are lower than guitar but not as low as a bass. It needs to occupy it's own territory. 

Here's some classic baritone tones - it cuts through the music by out=twanging everything else. 

 

 

Yeah, that's got the twang down for sure! I think sometimes that is effected as much by the Fender Deluxe Reverb amp using the so-called Tremolo channel.