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Quote:
Originally posted by popstar:
Lee, of course it is somewhat difficult to communicate solely through postings like this or email, so perhaps I'm coming across in some manner that is not intended. My statement was that:

part of our desire of the "one knob per function" method is simply habit.

And quite often our sense of habit prevents us from opening our minds to alternate thinking.
LOL... well, now that you elaborate, I see that I understood your point perfectly well the first time, and you were saying exactly what I thought you were saying. Do you just not get how arrogant it is?

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Let's take the example of a guy who moves from PC to Mac or from Mac to PC. He's been a long time PC user, for instance. His job forces him to use a Mac. For quite some time, he simply can't get with the Mac's approach, and he compares the entire experience to his loving old PC days. But, once he has spent equal time on the Mac, he comes to discover that he actually likes it. In fact, he actually prefers it. Had he quit in the first week, saying "I simply prefer PC's", he would forever miss his new-found preference for Macs. Now, of course, this would not ALWAYS happen (that he would end up preferring the new approach), but still...sometimes it DOES happen. It is hard for us to now our TRUE feelings until we have given both roads equal chance. That's all. Would Lee Flier prefer a center section if she ended up spending as much time as she has on analog consoles? Heck, how could we possibly know? But, if she already makes up her mind before giving both approaches equal air time, I think she MIGHT be jumping to conclusions. But then again, MAYBE NOT.
Well gee, if I've been using Pro Tools since 1998 and I still prefer mixing on a console, is that long enough for you? Have I given it enough of a chance? :rolleyes: I've been working on analog consoles for about 25 years - does that mean I have to work in PT or on some other control surface for another 25 years in order for you to be satisfied that I really have made an honest decision and it's not "just habit?"

I'll ask you again, would you tell me as a guitar player that my instrument of choice was simply "habit" and I really ought to try other instruments and spend years mastering them before I made up my mind that I really wanted to play guitar? I get the feeling that if you were trying to hit on me, and I'd been married for 25 years, you'd be telling me "Your husband is just habit. If you'd only open your mind to other guys..." \:D

I also get the feeling once again that you really haven't been listening, since you seem to feel that my mind is made up about everything and I never try anything new. I like to try new things, and often I even like them. Sometimes I like the new thing better, other times not. There are some things that I think are perfect the way they are. Is that all right with you? Is it fathomable that you and somebody else might try the same thing, give it a fair chance and you might like it and the other person doesn't? Would you still respect that person, or would you continue to dismiss their choice as "habit?"

In a nutshell, I don't take such a dim view of "habit" as you do. It takes years to really master ANYthing, and spending those years requires commitment to it and yes, forming habits. Things change so fast today that commitment to anything is practically laughed at, but I'm not going to let that kind of thinking (which is pretty much driven by marketing) dictate my decisions. I'll commit to a new control surface or anything else if and when I find one that inspires me enough to want to put the time in. In fact that's why I originally learned Pro Tools - I was inspired by the possibilities of what could be done with it. 6 years later though, I'm still not satisfied with the actual sonics of it, so I haven't really committed to it. Doesn't mean I don't use it, am not still intrigued by the possibilities, or have made up my mind that it sucks. For some reason this seems unfathomable to you.

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In regards to your second statement above, you state "I route the group I'm working on to the center channels of the console". Hmmm...how do you do this on analog console? Sounds to me like you're describing a process which could only take place on some sort of a digital surface...
Analog consoles still have busses and patch bays.

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Lee,

Well, I'm still not sure about the arrogance part...just making an observation about us as humans...including myself. I don't think I've ever said that everyone "SHOULD" prefer my way...I've only said that if everyone spent the same amount of time on both approaches, some feelings may be different. Either yours or mine. Heck, I've changed my mind on about a million things in my life and I think that as a result of that, I try not to commit myself too strongly on anything, knowing that over time, my opinion may change.

As far as mixing in PT vs analog...I've only said (over and over again) that it is my belief that many people will change their preferences if and when the proper work surface is introduced and once those surfaces are properly installed in control rooms. I still totally stand by that. I don't even look at it as opinion...I see it as fact. If and when that day comes, Lee, we're all going to see a massive change in the industry. If you're not sure about it, let's touch bases in a year, at which time, I will gladly allow you to buy me lunch!

In regards to your statement about analog consoles still having busses, etc...still, you can't really accomplish anything by temporarily bussing the group you're working on to the center. If you're bringing it to faders in the center and make adjustment on those master group faders (such as adding a stereo compressor, eq, etc.), it has to be destroyed when you want to bring the next group you're working on to those same faders. Surely, I must not be understanding what you were saying.

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Originally posted by popstar:
I don't think I've ever said that everyone "SHOULD" prefer my way...I've only said that if everyone spent the same amount of time on both approaches, some feelings may be different. Either yours or mine.
Well sure... but that statement is totally meaningless and irrelevant to me because we'll really never know. I have no idea what my life would have been like if I'd spent the last 30 years playing piano instead of guitar, or if Pro Tools had been invented in the 70's and I'd learned on that instead of analog. And who cares? That isn't what happened. I might as well wonder what would have happened if I'd become a lion tamer instead of a musician or engineer. Maybe I'd like it just as much after spending many years as a lion tamer, but somehow I doubt it. I've made my commitments and developed my "habits" in life based on what inspires me, not the other way around.

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Heck, I've changed my mind on about a million things in my life and I think that as a result of that, I try not to commit myself too strongly on anything, knowing that over time, my opinion may change.
Well, again, other people might be different. I prefer to commit myself strongly to certain things and get as deep into them as I can. I find that otherwise I don't get the full enjoyment or potential out of anything I do.

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As far as mixing in PT vs analog...I've only said (over and over again) that it is my belief that many people will change their preferences if and when the proper work surface is introduced and once those surfaces are properly installed in control rooms. I still totally stand by that. I don't even look at it as opinion...I see it as fact.
Okey dokey... I'm sure you're right, "many" people will change their preferences. Others will not. Who cares? I don't bother trying to predict the direction of "the industry" anymore because 1) "the industry" does not all speak with one voice and I hope it never does, and 2) it's impossible anyway. Ribbon mics were supposed to be "dead" and now they're enjoying a total resurrection in digital recording. Ditto for vinyl, tubes, etc. There are all sorts of people making money doing all sorts of things they aren't "supposed" to be doing.

There also remains the very real point that Phil and Bob brought up, and that is whether any company is going to bother to invest a ton of R&D into a product (control surface) that is likely only going to make a certain percentage of an already very limited market happy. The only possible answer that I can see would be to make a control surface that's highly modular - if you want a great center section and not too much on the individual channels, you could buy the center section and as many "lite" strips as you wanted. If you want a big board a la the classic analog, get a bunch of the "deluxe" channel strips with individual EQ and panning, and a less complex center section. If you want both and have the money, you could get both in one board.

But that would get expensive to develop and probably more expensive to purchase than a lot of people in today's climate would be willing to pay... and really if I'm going to shell out even $60K for anything it had better do what I want. And I'd better be able to justify its existence economically too. Are there enough people who fit both of those targets for any company to consider developing such a thing? Seems to me that those who are comfortable with analog desks will mostly stick with those, and those who like mixing in the box will mostly mix with a mouse and maybe augment that with a relatively inexpensive digital desk. Somebody would have to come out with an absolute killer control surface for people to really want to adopt it and pay for it, and what company has the kind of resources right now to devote to that AND thinks it'd be worth it? I guess Sony tried with the Oxford, but that hasn't panned out to be a big enough seller to justify the cost of it, it doesn't appear.

So I'm not predicting anything except that mics and preamps are still probably a safe investment. \:D

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In regards to your statement about analog consoles still having busses, etc...still, you can't really accomplish anything by temporarily bussing the group you're working on to the center. If you're bringing it to faders in the center and make adjustment on those master group faders (such as adding a stereo compressor, eq, etc.), it has to be destroyed when you want to bring the next group you're working on to those same faders. Surely, I must not be understanding what you were saying.
No, I guess I didn't make myself very clear. What I mean is that I bus groups of faders (say, the drums, or guitars) to two channels near the center once I'm basically done mixing the group. That way I don't have to ever reach very far to turn the group up or down. I try to leave the stuff that's likely to have lots of level or panning moves (like vox or guitars or effects tracks) until the end, and put those on the center channels. So what I end up with is several groups on two faders each, with the groups at the far left and right of arm's reach, plus whatever individual tracks are going to need to be "ridden" the most, at the center. With the result that I'm very rarely running to the far end of the console during the last critical phases of a mix when it's most important to be in the sweet spot.

Like I said, this would be much less workable for somebody doing a lot of post work, surround mixes and other stuff that uses tons and tons of tracks - even if you subgrouped everything you'd probably still end up running around more than you'd like! For that type of thing, mixing in the box is probably a better option. But for somebody like me, it works great. And that's the reason I would never want to be limited to one way to work.

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Re: the sound quality issue of analog vs digital, I still think the A-to-D and D-to-A verters need some more improvements. YMMV.

Re: Control Surface--I like David Gibson's idea as shown in his book "The Art of Mixing." Headgear and gloves in a 3d environment...man what a way to do surround sound. And little wireless devices are appearing everywhere, why be tied to a console or control surface? John could have his lady on his lap on the couch and be doing a mix from there. Now, how's that sound? Cool, Aye?

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Originally posted by Lee Flier:
[QUOTE]
There also remains the very real point that Phil and Bob brought up, and that is whether any company is going to bother to invest a ton of R&D into a product (control surface) that is likely only going to make a certain percentage of an already very limited market happy.

But that would get expensive to develop and probably more expensive to purchase than a lot of people in today's climate would be willing to pay... and really if I'm going to shell out even $60K for anything it had better do what I want. And I'd better be able to justify its existence economically too. Are there enough people who fit both of those targets for any company to consider developing such a thing? Seems to me that those who are comfortable with analog desks will mostly stick with those, and those who like mixing in the box will mostly mix with a mouse and maybe augment that with a relatively inexpensive digital desk. Somebody would have to come out with an absolute killer control surface for people to really want to adopt it and pay for it, and what company has the kind of resources right now to devote to that AND thinks it'd be worth it? I guess Sony tried with the Oxford, but that hasn't panned out to be a big enough seller to justify the cost of it, it doesn't appear.
Well, of course, the logical answer to your question about which company would be Digidesign. The ball is clearly in their court, and it they're smart and want to continue their march to domination, they absolutely have to come out with better control surfaces. I think there are other scenarios, however. What if SSL and Steinberg or Euphonix and Steinberg got together to present the total Nuendo package with professional control surface? Actually, isn't there something like that already in the works?

I think that when I first started up here two years ago, putting forth my "ProTools is taking over the pro market" sermon, many people were disbelieving and quite pissed. At this time, however, it seems to me that most have accepted that as a recording format, ProTools has taken over the pro market, to the point that many are trying to question how we as an industry could prevent one company from total domination. I'll admit that I almost feel a bit guilty for the fact that I spread that gospel so far and so wide, because I would actually feel a bit bad about one company having us in their grip. It's not a good scenario...not that I have anything against Digi, per se, but just the concept of having no choices is not good for any of us. Of course, kind of similarly, SSL and Neve have had us all in a bit of a grip for the last 10-15 years, and while I honestly rank them as FIRST RATE COMPANIES overall, I do still feel that they used their position as leaders to keep their console prices pretty high, thus putting the studios in a terrible position financially over the long term. At least the "buy-in" with Digi is much, much less in dollars.

Still, the only logical conclusion that anyone can come to at this point in time is that analog is truly a dead end path that will simply lose more and more ground as time goes on for the mainstream pro market. No matter about all of debating over this or that aspect of things, this result is simply inevitable. In every city around the world, studios are having a very, very tough time of it, and having $10,000.00 monthly console payments is simply too big a burden. The studios have no financial flexibility, because they are just barely surviving (or even less) once the console, mortgage/rent, payroll and insurance payments are made each month. And that will simply not be enough for the vast majority of them to continue in business. Successful businesses are ones that THRIVE, not ones that merely and barely squeak by each month. Honestly, Lee, life as we knew it is over in that regard. I don't take joy in saying that, but it IS the truth. Analog studios will most likely not "thrive" ever again. They will only maintain and will eventually be forced out by decliniing income and rising expenses. This is Business 101. Will some studios built around analog technologies survive? Well, surely some will for a bit. But overall as an industry, we're going to be moving further and further into the DAW approach to life, no matter what you or I think about that. It might happen over the next 24 months, or 36 or 60 months...but it is going to happen.

So if and when such a control surface is introduced, our path will be clear. That exact moment will be the first step of our walk on the yellow brick road...

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Originally posted by popstar:
Well, of course, the logical answer to your question about which company would be Digidesign. The ball is clearly in their court, and it they're smart and want to continue their march to domination, they absolutely have to come out with better control surfaces.
I dunno, do they? Who would buy it? I think those who mix with analog desks today would continue doing that, while others who prefer mixing with a mouse or other small hardware interface will continue doing THAT. Not saying it's impossible that they or somebody else would make the investment, but I'm not sure they HAVE to.

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I think there are other scenarios, however. What if SSL and Steinberg or Euphonix and Steinberg got together to present the total Nuendo package with professional control surface? Actually, isn't there something like that already in the works?
I dunno, is there? It'd be interesting to see how it does, if so.

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I think that when I first started up here two years ago, putting forth my "ProTools is taking over the pro market" sermon, many people were disbelieving and quite pissed. At this time, however, it seems to me that most have accepted that as a recording format, ProTools has taken over the pro market, to the point that many are trying to question how we as an industry could prevent one company from total domination.
Sorry but I think most of us knew that two years ago too. I think you misunderstand why people were pissed. If you recall, several of us were pissed because we misunderstood your use of the word "standard," believing you were talking about quality rather than popularity. Once it became obvious that you meant "standard" in terms of becoming a standardized format, many people weren't pissed anymore, while others were pissed just because you seem to waste so much time overstating the obvious. To the point where when a guy raved about how happy he was with his RADAR you had to piss on his parade and tell him it didn't matter how much he liked his RADAR, it was a 'dead end format' and Pro Tools was the thing. Well, DUH. We all know that Pro Tools dominates the industry at this time. Please don't think we know this because of you "spreading the gospel." Most of us just don't feel the need to go shouting the obvious from the rooftops the way you do. Also, as many people pointed out to you at the time, lots of people use Pro Tools in conjunction with other stuff.

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I'll admit that I almost feel a bit guilty for the fact that I spread that gospel so far and so wide,...
Please don't feel so guilty, it's nothing we didn't already know. :rolleyes:

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It's not a good scenario...not that I have anything against Digi, per se, but just the concept of having no choices is not good for any of us. Of course, kind of similarly, SSL and Neve have had us all in a bit of a grip for the last 10-15 years, and while I honestly rank them as FIRST RATE COMPANIES overall, I do still feel that they used their position as leaders to keep their console prices pretty high, thus putting the studios in a terrible position financially over the long term.
I don't think they used their position at all, I think that's just what it costs to make a console of that quality (and other companies make them too in case you don't recall - API, Amek, Trident, et al). In fact, I had the pleasure to meet Rupert Neve a few years ago at the opening of a studio here in Atlanta where they'd installed a (Neve designed) Amek 9098i. I thought it was about the most beautiful sounding desk I'd ever heard as well as the most beautifully designed, and when I shook Mr. Neve's hand, I told him so. He got this kind of pained look on his face. "Now if we could only make it make sense in terms of the cost," he said. It was obvious that the economics were very much on his mind and I have no doubt that if he could have made it for less money and not compromised anything, he would have. I think SSL would too. GM's gear is priced quite high - is that because he's trying to take advantage of his position? Errhh, no. It is unfortunately still expensive to build really, really good gear, and if somebody'd figured out how to do it you can bet they would have, and blown Neve, SSL, GML et al out of the water. Instead, a lot of companies simply PRETEND they've done it, just look at their advertising. \:D

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At least the "buy-in" with Digi is much, much less in dollars.
Yeah, the dollars come in later, when you are practically forced to upgrade every year in order to make anything work. :rolleyes:

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Still, the only logical conclusion that anyone can come to at this point in time is that analog is truly a dead end path that will simply lose more and more ground as time goes on for the mainstream pro market. No matter about all of debating over this or that aspect of things, this result is simply inevitable.
Well, apart from the fact that I really don't care personally what "the mainstream pro market" is doing, I don't see that as so inevitable. I'd elaborate on why I think that is, but honestly I don't care enough to debate that with you. I'm perfectly content to just wait and see - while you SAY you don't "take any pleasure" in making such pronouncements, but it's pretty obvious that you must get SOME joy out of it because you keep saying it at every opportunity.

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So if and when such a control surface is introduced, our path will be clear. That exact moment will be the first step of our walk on the yellow brick road...
As far as YOU'RE concerned, maybe. For those of us who still aren't satisfied with the actual sound of DAW's, a better control surface won't help anything unless there are also improvements to the sound. And I'm certainly not going THERE with you anymore. \:D

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Quote:
Originally posted by Lee Flier:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by popstar:
[qb]1. Well, of course, the logical answer to your question about which company would be Digidesign.
I dunno, do they? Who would buy it?

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2. I think that when I first started up here two years ago, putting forth my "ProTools is taking over the pro market" sermon, many people were disbelieving and quite pissed.
Sorry but I think most of us knew that two years ago too.
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3. Of course, kind of similarly, SSL and Neve have had us all in a bit of a grip for the last 10-15 years.
I don't think they used their position at all, I think that's just what it costs to make a console of that quality. \:D

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4. Still, the only logical conclusion that anyone can come to at this point in time is that analog is truly a dead end path that will simply lose more and more ground as time goes on for the mainstream pro market.
Well, apart from the fact that I really don't care personally what "the mainstream pro market" is doing, I don't see that as so inevitable.
[QUOTE][qb]

Lee,

I can't seem to figure out how to do the quote thing as nicely as you, so I've just numbered the sections...

1) Who would buy it? Well, for starters there are a whole lot of high end producers who have put SSL's in at home, so I'd start there. Not that those guys will necessarily immediately get rid of the SSL they just dropped 400k on, but many, if not most, of the next high end guys who have to make a choice will surely be swayed by the lesser $$ investment. Secondarily, not-so-major producers and engineers who will be able to afford such an item will be awfully tempted. I mean, used SSL's bring another set of issues to the potential buyer...much more audio hookup involved, much greater air conditioning involved, must make sure that floor foundation will handle the weight of the SSL, a considerable amount of maintance when compared to the DAW, etc. Lastly, I would think that these items would be VERY popular with all sorts of studios, whether they are geared towards music, jingles, post, film, video, etc. I mean, could you imagine a studio that would not want to have such a product in-house?

2. Well, that's not exactly how I remember it, but hey, at my age, any memory slip is possible. yes, I recall the "standards" issue of definition, but as I also recall, many of the posters simply did not want to believe that PT was as widespread as it was even back then. That's why the Billboard postings always generated big debates. I was just providing a very basic service.

3. In my opinion, SSL and Neve made mistakes by not introducing boards in a lower price bracket. Perhaps these boards would have been smaller configs with fewer bells and whistles. The prospective studio owner was left with a tough decision...nothing at all OR $120,000.00 downpayment and $12,000.00/month payments for five years. Honestly, those are very tough choices, and had I been president of SSL, I probably would have given real thought to introducing lower priced consoles alongside the big guns.

4. Again, no pleasure in stating the obvious again. If the inevitability is not based on occupational preference, it will nonetheless be based on finances. Having kept a close eye on the studio business for the last many, many years, and seeing many of the popular L.A., NYC and Nashville having a real tough time of it, there aren't a lot of different conclusions to come to. Are Atlanta studios not feeling it?

popsTar

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Popstar.

A little along the lines of what John Sayer was saying about digital voice recognition transferring information.

What about Voice recognition to control WHERE the action is. A mic you talk into close up; also keyed from a transducer hanging around your neck. Picking up the physical vibration of your throat to make sure it would recognize properly the source of command. Even when you are listening to a loud mix for instance. The overall command circuit becomes active when you step on a foot pedal.

Using it for commands to screen layouts, routines shouldn't overtax current voice recognition software.

Example. Step on the activation footswitch talk into the mic and say Channel 32. Switches to channel 32. Visual lableing of Control Surface and Computer display updates instantly and automatically. Your hands never leaving the faders, etc.

Make custom assignments. You could train it (hold down a button) and say “Bass 3” for your current view.

I'm not passing any judgement on how big a control surface is; or even what's in it (Pre's optional). Only that size and cost could be reduced by automatically updating what is there. Also much easier to remain in the sweet spot.

The question might be how much of an SSL control surface would you now need if you could voice command the control surface to become what you need at the moment.

Possibly even a blind person could run it.

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Quote:
Originally posted by popstar:
I mean, could you imagine a studio that would not want to have such a product in-house?
Sure, a lot of studios would WANT them - the question is would enough people pay for them? I have no idea.

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2. Well, that's not exactly how I remember it, but hey, at my age, any memory slip is possible. yes, I recall the "standards" issue of definition, but as I also recall, many of the posters simply did not want to believe that PT was as widespread as it was even back then. That's why the Billboard postings always generated big debates. I was just providing a very basic service.
No, the Billboard postings generated big debates because a lot of people thought you would being disingenuous in posting them (e.g. you worked for Digi or had some other ulterior motive, because nobody could figure out why in the world you were so obsessed with this issue), and/or simply considered them irrelevant because we understand that most stuff ends up passing through PT at some point, that says nothing about what other platforms were used as well.

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3. In my opinion, SSL and Neve made mistakes by not introducing boards in a lower price bracket. Perhaps these boards would have been smaller configs with fewer bells and whistles. The prospective studio owner was left with a tough decision...nothing at all OR $120,000.00 downpayment and $12,000.00/month payments for five years. Honestly, those are very tough choices, and had I been president of SSL, I probably would have given real thought to introducing lower priced consoles alongside the big guns.
Well there are other companies who did so quite successfully - like Amek, API, and Trident. Many studios I worked at in L.A. had these mid level consoles and I was very happy to use any of them. Still am.

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4. Again, no pleasure in stating the obvious again. If the inevitability is not based on occupational preference, it will nonetheless be based on finances. Having kept a close eye on the studio business for the last many, many years, and seeing many of the popular L.A., NYC and Nashville having a real tough time of it, there aren't a lot of different conclusions to come to. Are Atlanta studios not feeling it?
Sure we're feeling it. I am less certain than you that we'll always be feeing it, though, or probably more to the point, that there won't be a lot of different niche markets that could do well in the future.

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PS. I'm already thinking about restaurants for when you buy me lunch!
Well sorry, I ain't buying you lunch nor would I ask you to buy me lunch if you're wrong. You're the one who's obsessed with predicting the future, not me. I can think of a lot of scenarios that could happen (including yours of course), some of which might be great for me personally and some of wish would suck for me personally. And I may not care by the time it all shakes out - like I've said several times, if DAW's improve to the point where I'm happy with the sound and the interface, I'll be perfectly happy to use them exclusively. But for me that's gonna take more than just a control surface.

Meanwhile, it's a beautiful first day of spring here in Atlanta, and I'm gonna go out and enjoy it.

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Originally posted by Lee Flier:
[QUOTE]You're the one who's obsessed with predicting the future, not me. I can think of a lot of scenarios that could happen (including yours of course), some of which might be great for me personally and some of wish would suck for me personally. And I may not care by the time it all shakes out - like I've said several times, if DAW's improve to the point where I'm happy with the sound and the interface, I'll be perfectly happy to use them exclusively. But for me that's gonna take more than just a control surface.

Meanwhile, it's a beautiful first day of spring here in Atlanta, and I'm gonna go out and enjoy it.
Lee, Lee....

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting the tone of your posts, but you seem so worked up all the time! I mean, hey, here we are on an audio newsgroup debating the issues. If you were working in the industry for a living (perhaps you do, I don't know), wouldn't you constantly be looking ahead to see what's coming? I mean, ESPECIALLY in these very, very tough times? Of course, I'm doing just that...it is my job to do so.

And no matter how it turns out...I think that you'll be just fine. Surely, massive industry changes do not happen overnight, and certainly there will be studios in Atlanta with analog consoles for years to come. Even if we assumed that the very last analog desk left Atlanta five years from now (and it would probably be more like 25), by that time, DAW technology would hopefully have advanced to the point that you'd be quite satisfied with it. I mean, if you're so opposed to DAW mixing currently (even assuming that a killer control surface were introduced), you will always have some analog consoles at your disposal. And/or perhaps if we saw the analog desks becoming extremely affordable on the used market, perhaps you'd entertain the notion of simply picking one up and installing it where you live (perhaps you already have one...I don't know).

By the way, you mentioned that you had worked in some LA studios...did you live here or were you visiting and working? May I ask where you worked? I know most of the studios in town and have good friends in so many of them....

Emperator,

Again, very cool stuff. Maybe someone's already working on such things?

best,

ps

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Perhaps I'm misinterpreting the tone of your posts
try this then

DIE THREAD DIE!!! \:\) \:\)

cheers
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Originally posted by John Sayers:
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Perhaps I'm misinterpreting the tone of your posts
try this then

DIE THREAD DIE!!! \:\) \:\)

cheers
john
John,

speaking of dead things, your links don't seem to work...

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LOL John, no kidding! \:D

popstar, nah I'm not worked up at all, I'm actually highly amused. And sure it's a smart thing to consider where the industry might be headed... I think you're just a little bit too, errhh, overzealous about preaching your "predictions" to others. I think it's pretty obvious to anyone with half a clue (which is really most of the folks on this forum) that Pro Tools is the dominant platform nowadays, has been headed that way for a long time and likely as not will continue to dominate even more. That doesn't mean anyone who still chooses to use something else is an idiot, or even that they can't continue to thrive as a niche market using something else.

And I agree that I'll probably do just fine, mainly because I haven't invested a whole lot personally in any particular platform cuz I'm waiting to see what tickles my spine. I doubt I'll be investing very much dough in my own studio for at least another couple of years, other than buying mics and pres which I'm sure I will always need. At that time, I can decide whether 1) somebody's come up with a DAW system that I like the sound of and like the interface enough to fork out the cash, 2) I say "screw it, I'm getting a used analog desk." \:D

I DO hope that it becomes safe to turn on the radio at some point without it hurting my ears.

About my background - I am originally from L.A. and mostly lived there until I moved to Atlanta in 1992. I worked out there throughout the 80's in a boatload of different rooms from the old Record Plant on 3rd St., to The Studio in Santa Monica (little 8 track place with a fantastic old API desk) and everything in between. I quit engineering full time in I think '85, as most of the money gigs I was getting were hair metal which was not my thing, and everyone also wanted to trigger Linn drums and use gated reverbs which I really didn't feel like listening to for 14 hours a day either. \:D I got pretty burned out after a few years of this; the last thing I felt like doing after that was picking up my guitar when I got home, which for me is not good. So, ever since then I make only part of my income from engineering, and only accept projects that I can enjoy musically. I have a project studio at home where I record my own band and occasional paying clients; other clients I record at various rooms throughout the city depending on their budget and what platform they want to use, etc.

And that's about as much as I wanna tell some anonymous guy on the Internet. \:D

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John,

speaking of dead things, your links don't seem to work...
yeah sorry mate - we are moving the site at the moment.

cheers
john

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"However, I submit to any and all that part of our desire for the "one knob per function" method is simply habit...we've been working that way for, what, 50 years?
"

Clueless, completely clueless

And this is coming from a guy who ENJOYS mixing in the box.

But this type of clueless attitude is holding us in the box mixers back years. One of my favorite software companies doesnt even understand the need for autoinput monitoring. People use the same clueless defense for that as well, auto input is just simply habit

clueless

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Originally posted by Aaron Carey:
"However, I submit to any and all that part of our desire for the "one knob per function" method is simply habit...we've been working that way for, what, 50 years?
"

Clueless, completely clueless

And this is coming from a guy who ENJOYS mixing in the box.

But this type of clueless attitude is holding us in the box mixers back years. One of my favorite software companies doesnt even understand the need for autoinput monitoring. People use the same clueless defense for that as well, auto input is just simply habit

clueless
Yeah, well, don't agree. As I said...PART of the desire. Again. PART of the desire is habit. If you can keep an open mind, imagine this for a moment:

If our professional lives had started out mixing in the box and someone introduced a 20' analog console where every single control had a corresponding knob, and which required you to actually walk over a few feet out of the speaker range to do a tweak and it cost, like $500k and required that you install an air conditioner double the size of your current one, do you really think for a minute that the entire recording community would jump up and say YES! FINALLY! WHERE DO I SEND MY $100K DOWNPAYMENT?

So, I stand by my assessment that PART of our desire for the one knob one function is simply that we've done our work that way for the last half a century...

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Well, a lot of really good albums have their base or their existence from a live recording. I dont know about you, but on the few times I get to get out of the studio, and mix a live show, I shure as hell dont bring a PC with me, I need the immediacy and feedback of real knobs and faders. One function per knob. You can call it habit, but I would call an assignable control surface in that situation suicide. And as a side benefit, you get to play the knobs and faders like a musical instrument and then guess what? MUSIC comes out. Not the edited together created performances we have to make day in and day out in the studio.

Back in the studio, I mix with a mosue and a keyboard. Im so acclimated to it now that I have trouble mixing an album with faders. Does that mean I dont miss being able to grab a knob, and hearing the effect without latency and without worrying about something crashing ? nope

Hang around some studios sometime, or sit in on some sessions with seasoned engineers, and youll realize the my way or the highway attitude just wont hold water. You shure got the drive and ambition, and especially gumption but stick around the bizz long enough and youll see that an open mind wont hurt.

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Originally posted by popstar:
[QUOTEIf our professional lives had started out mixing in the box and someone introduced a 20' analog console where every single control had a corresponding knob, and which required you to actually walk over a few feet out of the speaker range to do a tweak and it cost, like $500k and required that you install an air conditioner double the size of your current one, do you really think for a minute that the entire recording community would jump up and say YES! FINALLY! WHERE DO I SEND MY $100K DOWNPAYMENT?
popStar
see, you, like most "in the box" guys, mistake having a knob to control every parameter for the need of a 20' console.

No, what is need is a multiple faders, 8-24 is fine. And a 2 channels that have full controls for all functions. so the channels you are working on have thier parameters appearon the "control" channles.
And 2, because it's nice to eb able to control a stereo pair, separately. that's wher mackie screwed up on the DXB, IMO,. Just like most othe digital console makers. You only get con trol ove r a single channel.

Stupid.


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Originally posted by Henchman:
[QUOTE]see, you, like most "in the box" guys, mistake having a knob to control every parameter for the need of a 20' console.

No, what is need is a multiple faders, 8-24 is fine. And a 2 channels that have full controls for all functions. so the channels you are working on have thier parameters appearon the "control" channles.
And 2, because it's nice to eb able to control a stereo pair, separately. that's wher mackie screwed up on the DXB, IMO,. Just like most othe digital console makers. You only get con trol ove r a single channel.

Stupid.
Henchman is right on the money here. Well said.

Aaron, sorry, you're an idiot, but I say that with all due respect.

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Originally posted by Henchman:

No, what is need is a multiple faders, 8-24 is fine. And a 2 channels that have full controls for all functions. so the channels you are working on have thier parameters appearon the "control" channles.
Actually I don't mind at all the idea of having a smaller number of faders and switchable banks. That way you can always sit in the sweet spot, and of course the size and cost savings is considerable. I just want panning and 4 band EQ on each of those channels.

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No disrespect taken, I AM an idiot. I chose this line of work for a career. I drive a 31 year old musclecar when parking lots are made for rollerskates. I set myslef up to work with "working bands" in an area where the job market is dominated by illegal immigration. I ride a 20" bike on big rickety halfpipes. I don't use protools by choice even tho kiddy bands see the "articles " in rolling stone and teen hairspray magazine about it. To make me an even bigger idiot, my choice in a DAW isnt even Nuendo!

So, idiot I am, but close minded I am not

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http://www.digidesign.com/news/credits/

The reason there hasn't been another "Dark Side of the Moon" is that prog rock is unfortunately just about dead.

On the other hand, the Outkast stuff is great and it looks like it was a PT project. Or do we have to stick to old white guys as a benchmark?


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Aaron, welcome to the club ;\)

But if I see this list with al songs made by protools I don't understand one thing.

Why is everyone complaining more and more about the bad sound of popsongs today???


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My partner and I mixed and produced Eamon's single F**K it completely within Protools mix system with 1 mix card and 2 farm cards. It was the #1 selling single in the country for more than 10 weeks. If your goal is to sell records and have hits then just find great artists and great songs. The mix is important, but the differences in 24B or 16B, Protools or Nuendo or tape don't translate to record sales. That stuff is just for the engineers. Just use what ever you are comfortable with and can be creative with.

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My partner and I mixed and produced Eamon's single F**K it completely within Protools mix system with 1 mix card and 2 farm cards. It was the #1 selling single in the country for more than 10 weeks. If your goal is to sell records and have hits then just find great artists and great songs. The mix is important, but the differences in 24B or 16B, Protools or Nuendo or tape don't translate to record sales. That stuff is just for the engineers. Just use what ever you are comfortable with and can be creative with.

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thats an awfully nice list of smashed and squashed *crap*. Its like waiting for the hammer to drop. I deliver the client a nice breathing impactful dynamic, and hopefully(when it is metal) PAINFUL mix, in stereo no less. It comes back bassless, mono, squashed treble distorto-boosted and lifeless.

Why even have pan knobs on consoles (sorry, software) anymore?

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Originally posted by bat radar:
If your goal is to sell records and have hits then just find great artists and great songs.
Personally, my goal is not "to sell recordings and have hits," and having a great artist and a great song is no guarantee that something will be a hit even if it were. Nor are all hits made by great artists with great songs.

My goal is to work with great artists and great songs and present them in the best possible light, which will hopefully stand the test of time, whether or not it's ever a hit.

Quote:
The mix is important, but the differences in 24B or 16B, Protools or Nuendo or tape don't translate to record sales. That stuff is just for the engineers.
A lot of crap has translated to record sales over the years, so again, that's not my criterion. And I disagree that this stuff is "just for engineers." Listeners CAN tell the difference between good sound and great sound, even if they couldn't tell you in words what the difference is and usually aren't consciously aware of it. Being aware of it is OUR job.

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Just use what ever you are comfortable with and can be creative with.
On that we can agree.

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Originally posted by Philter:

The reason there hasn't been another "Dark Side of the Moon" is that prog rock is unfortunately just about dead.

On the other hand, the Outkast stuff is great and it looks like it was a PT project. Or do we have to stick to old white guys as a benchmark?
Huh? Apparently a lot of folks are misinterpreting the "DSOTM" reference. As I've said several times, I'm referring to the sonics alone, not the music. There are innumerable other records I could cite which I think most of us would agree were sonically excellent even if we didn't like the music (I am not a prog rock fan, incidentally and never have been). Hell, you could put on just about any top 40 disco record from the 70's and it will have been extremely well recorded, no matter what you think of the music.

And I agree that the latest Outkast record sounds really good, at least the tracks I've heard. I haven't had the chance to check out the whole record yet, and I presume when I hear it on the radio that it's been squashed by the broadcast limiter, so I'm trying to reserve judgement about that.

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Originally posted by Aaron Carey:
No disrespect taken, I AM an idiot. I chose this line of work for a career. I drive a 31 year old musclecar when parking lots are made for rollerskates. I set myslef up to work with "working bands" in an area where the job market is dominated by illegal immigration. I ride a 20" bike on big rickety halfpipes. I don't use protools by choice even tho kiddy bands see the "articles " in rolling stone and teen hairspray magazine about it. To make me an even bigger idiot, my choice in a DAW isnt even Nuendo!

So, idiot I am, but close minded I am not
Aaron, I suppose you think for some reason that I am close minded. Interestingly, I came from the analog era...you know the era with all the knobs and buttons and massive consoles. I've even owned a handful of them. But, like everyone else, I'm always trying to keep an eye open to where things are heading. And I think they're heading in the digital direction.

Many of our thoughts about our ways of working ARE based on habit. How could they not be? After all, it's been decades of work for us. That doesn't mean that our old way of working was better or worse...only that it has been the way that we've worked. Nor do I mean to say all the new stuff is better or worse. It's simply new to us, relatively speaking.

Being closed minded means getting used to one way of working and not being open to learning, understanding and/or appreciating new ways of working. Being closed minded also means working in a new method without having any appreciation for how past technologies can help us with our audio. I'm not accusing anyone up here of being closed minded, because typically close minded people are not up on audiogroups being interested enough to debate the issues. But there sure are plenty of people in our business who ARE closed minded, in both directions. I am not one of them. I just have a strong opinion on where I think things are heading...

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Sidebar:

When I see some of these very long debates with Lee, I sometimes wonder if it is because some of you guys want to get a hot date with her. \:\)

This gratuitous comment is in addition to the valuable intellectual exchange between the parties.

Carry on.

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