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Uh oh... CD has spoken....

Quote:
Originally posted by Curve Dominant:
I1) If it's good for GML, it's good for our industry.
Who said it's good? the most important assets at GML are the Good-will and the Know-how. Going to the PRC endangers directly them.

Quote:
2) The more the USA and the PRC are entwined in business relationships, the more incentive we both have to NOT go to war with each other.
And USA went to war with Iraq because?

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4) The Chinese are people, just like us, and so deserve a chance to work and compete in our global economy.
But they are playing different game rules. In the position they are, their last concern is quality. Their first concern is inmediate profit of the factory. A lot of things start with this premise. Check my previous post.

Quote:
6) As long as CEOs like GM care about the welfare of Chinese workers they employ, the welfare of those workers will steadily improve.
That factor is out of GM's reach.

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7) The more Chinese workers are connected with western standards of decency in the workplace, the more they will demand to be provided those standards - and this will fuel the engine of progress in their society.
Oh... my... god.... Their engine is fueled by a different type of gas. They are on a whole different level on the Maslow pyramid.

Quote:
8) The more informative Chinese workers become (as result of #7), the more they will demand higher wages and benefits - gradually bringing them into equillibrium with US workers' demands.
You're kidding. Right?

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9) ...which will result in evolution of cultures in both the PRC and the USA.
Right. You're kidding.


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Quote:
Originally posted by Johnny B:
It seem to me that underlying some people's arguments is the self-serving and selfish motive or getting a better deal on product. But the orginal question had to do with ethics.

Let me ask it this way:

"Is it ethical to contribute to making a cumulative negative impact resulting in a downfall of the American economy, causing hardships to families, in order to maximize the bottom line profit?"
What if it's not about bottom line profits but of being able to stay competitive and stay in business in a changing economy. I would think that with all the new gear available high-end manufacturers are feeling the pinch and with our economy in the toilet they're probably feeling the pressure more than most.

I don't know what I'd do. I think that Lee, dblmusic, and Phil have a good idea - make a less expensive line made in PRC while keeping the Made-in-the-USA line. On the other hand, I can see that it could risk diluting the prestige of the GML brand.

I would imagine that this is a tough decision, but it seems to me that waving the American flag and threatening the "downfall of the American economy" is a little short-sighted.

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I had originally written a long winded post full of subtlety and analysis... but my browser crashed and it's gone forever... all that wisdom, disappears so quickly. \:\)

OK, so the short version: Don't oursource. Period.

We've reached a time of crisis in our country and our continent.

Technical jobs are going to India and Pakistan, among others. THOSE are the ones we thought we would always have when we thought outsourcing all the entry level jobs would be OK.

It's certainly our current administration's fault in part, but not entirely... they haven't created a SINGLE net job. As a matter of fact, but the two Bushes together and they have lost far more jobs than they have created.

What does it mean for the US? What does it mean for Canada and Mexico? How many entry level jobs has Mexico lost, because they are trying to even SLIGHTLY tighten up their environmental regulations to prevent their citizens dying left and right?

Screw Walmart. Screw Macdonalds. Screw all the companies who are creating jobs that are, by design, unskilled... jobs where they encourage you NOT to stay, because they'll actually have to pay you more and give you benefits. Screw the meat packing industry.

Screw anyone who hasn't read "Fast Food Nation." Separate the political from the factual, and it's a good read for anyone, should be required reading.

Yes, we're all world players now... but we have to think long term about this, not sells ourselves out to the highest bidder.

The only people who are watching out for the citizens best interest are the citizens themselves. The leaders are decidedly NOT!

Truthfully, I'm a bottom feeder who couldn't afford a piece of GM's gear, even it were made in China. I think the point is for everyone who IS aware and who has a long term view to take action in our best long term interests... without legisiation to force them to do so.

Sorry if this is a little harsh... I'm just very worried about our current direction... where are we headed? Is it too late to change direction?


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Not entirely sure this is accurate evidence, but you can tell it's an issue people are well aware of. A situation like this: fake transistors would be a considerable pita to deal with on your doorstep, let alone if a line in Taiwan had already built a hundred units before realising...

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Someone seems to have the personal opinion that the expert economists at the world renowned Hoover Instituiton are "short sighted" in saying that current corporate policy encougages exporting jobs and is driving America in a "Race to the Bottom." These experts also say that if this continues, "America will soon be 3rd World Country."

Just stay the course here in America and do the right thing. That's the ethical thing to do.

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Quote:
Originally posted by Johnny B:
Someone seems to have the personal opinion that the expert economists at the world renowned Hoover Instituiton are "short sighted" in saying that current corporate policy encougages exporting jobs and is driving America in a "Race to the Bottom." These experts also say that if this continues, "America will soon be 3rd World Country."

Just stay the course here in America and do the right thing. That's the ethical thing to do.
That's a very pretty thought but it's not a very global thought. A company always has to find ways to stay profitable. It's not "Un-American" to keep your company in business and competative. Forget GML is an American based company, think of them as a global company because every other company outside the US thinks that way. Here's the real choice for American companies, respond to the new world market or go under. How have you proven anything when your out of business.


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Couple more irons to add to the fire...

- what impact on local economies would this have (not national...it would be microscopic)? Are we talking about 10 jobs or 100? I suspect there would not be many people involved; therefore the impact to a local economy would be nearly zilch (move to PRC)

- not everything coming from asia is junk...many many years ago folks used to slam any product made in Japan...now Japanese products seem to be as good as anyone else's...seems the location of manufacture is not nearly as important as design, construction, and components. (move to PRC)

- what impact would this move have on brand credibility? People bark about chinese Mackie and Peavey all day long, mostly without ever having heard any of it...Focusrite Platinums get a pretty bad rap on the 'net by a lot of people who have in many cases never heard them (stay in USA)

- Since nothing is made 100% in the USA anymore (components made offshore...try finding a tube made in the US, or a resistor, or a capicitor), even the "US" models are a mixture of nations' output; therefore perhaps moving the entire operation offshore is kind of moot...(move to PRC)

- I do not own any GML hardware, strictly because of cost...if the cost comes down and the quality is similar, then by all means move part of it to PRC, Mexico, wherever...

Regardless of what you decide, I'm confident it will be a worthwhile and quality product - would you put YOUR name on it if it weren't?


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Quote:
Originally posted by Curve Dominant:
I vote for GM doing business with the PRC, for many reasons:

1) If it's good for GML, it's good for our industry.
2) The more the USA and the PRC are entwined in business relationships, the more incentive we both have to NOT go to war with each other.
3) PRC factories, when well-run, produce damn good products.
4) The Chinese are people, just like us, and so deserve a chance to work and compete in our global economy.
5) If enough people have an alergic reaction to buying Chinese-made goods, markets will emerge to satisfy those needs.
6) As long as CEOs like GM care about the welfare of Chinese workers they employ, the welfare of those workers will steadily improve.
7) The more Chinese workers are connected with western standards of decency in the workplace, the more they will demand to be provided those standards - and this will fuel the engine of progress in their society.
8) The more informative Chinese workers become (as result of #7), the more they will demand higher wages and benefits - gradually bringing them into equillibrium with US workers' demands.
9) ...which will result in evolution of cultures in both the PRC and the USA.

World peace through business relationships. That's a win-win.

Go for it, George.
Yep I agree. The fact that we are considering the plight of the people we are providing employment for overseas, is an indicator of the widening of the circle of people we consider our 'kin'. There are very many good reasons therefore that we should cooperate rather than exclude. It is far far better to lead by example and act to include these peoples in our endeavours, to bring about their empowerment for change - rather than subjecting them to death, destruction and hatred of the West by bombing their regimes out of existence - IMVHO.

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Quote:
Originally posted by Pricey:
Quote:
Originally posted by Curve Dominant:
The more informative Chinese workers become (as result of #7), the more they will demand higher wages and benefits - gradually bringing them into equillibrium with US workers' demands.
That's pretty naive. Wages are determined by supply and demand. China has a huge labor surplus, and that's why wages are low. As more foreign companies invest in China to take advantage of the low wages, demand will rise and wages will rise with it. This will enable Chinese workers to accumulate capital and start their own businesses, further increasing the demand for labor.

At least, that what would happen in a free market. Under the current regime, it may not happen.
Actually, that's exactly what is happening. There is an emerging middle class in China that has money to spend. China is currently the hottest market in the world for new automobiles, and Beijing alone saw an additional 300,000 last year.

Also, it's too late for an embargo. As far as trade goes we're already irrevocably in bed with China, who buys, for instance, the bulk of the cotton grown in California. An embargo against China is very old thinking and wouldn't work at collapsing their regime any more than it did in Cuba or Iraq. I mean, they've to have a continuous civilization for 5,000 years without us.

Clinton had the right idea that to change or enlighten somebody the best way is to do business with them. The Chinese have become lovers of all things western now. As we trade with them, do business in their country, our culture is riding in like a Trojan horse and they are finding it to be irrestible. I saw something astonishing on tv the other day. One of the government owned Chinese tv networks is CCTV-9, which is all in English and is broadcast throught China and increasingly to the world at large (I get it on Adelphia Cable in Santa Monica). They do a news program every 4 hours, and I watched while they covered Bush's state of the union address. They showed a bit of the speech, then had a Chinese analyst make a few surprisingly fair and inciteful comments by way of explanation. Then they showed Pelosi and whatsisname with segments of the Democratic rebuttal, followed by more commentary. The thing that shocked me was that they were showing to their entire country the USA process of democracy and how we criticize our leaders, and presenting it in a "fair and balanced" light. Ten years ago this would have been unheard of. Trojan horse.

China can certainly be condemned for many sins, but it is in fact changing and opening up, a process that has to happen in its own time frame. The danger is not that we will be militarily conquered by the evil Chinese Communists. The real danger is that as China becomes the world's largest capitalist force they will beat us at our own game.

Curve, I think everything you said was right on.

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Quote:
The real danger is that as China becomes the world's largest capitalist force they will beat us at our own game.

may I suggest they alredy have??

If you take the top 300 million Chinese (out of 1.4 billion)and compare their lifestyle with the total 300 million US citizens I suspect the chinese would be better off (judging by some of the poverty I've seen in the US) - There are some extremely wealthy Chinese, and lots of them - last year construction in Beijing alone was greater than ALL of Europe. It's been predicted that in five years they will equal your GNP.

Similarly in India with it's even greater population.

The top elite in China and India don't give a rats about the poor in their country. They exploit them as well.

cheers
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So - Why not do business with Cuba too!
Another example the the Americian double standard!

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I know one effect GML lowering prices would have...bigger international market. I mean, I don't use filipino compressors and mic preamps, know what I mean? As an example I get paid 2,000 in US dollars for the film I'm scoring now, pretty pathetic compared to someone from the US. Hans Zimmer scores one film and he can purchase an entire HD Accel complete with the full line of GML and David Hill outboard gear with mucho change to spare.

But for me to keep getting the good jobs I must invest in good gear, and that means buying it abroad, even though it's a huge chunk of my earnings. But many people like me , even tho we're from third world countries, are always looking to expand, and you can bet we will line up for quality gear like GML (even the chinese made ones) once prices come down from stratospheric heights.

Not sure what this has to do with anything, but I bought a Chevy Venture (great for the kids). Really happy with it. It's made in China. But Chevy is an American company. So who did this Filipino benefit, the chinese or the american? Also bought an Adam S3a from Dave Bryce. Who did this benefit? His american company or the german manufacturer?


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Quote:
Originally posted by Nika:
apparently all Communist dictatorships should be under embargo.

Whew! I feel wiser now and much more informed.
Damn, Nika! \:D

Yes, all Communist dictatorships should be under embargo. Would you trade with Nazi Germany?

I guess I should know better than to post common sense, given the political slant of these forums.


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Quote:
posted by RKrizman:
The real danger is that as China becomes the world's largest capitalist force they will beat us at our own game.
I don't see that as a "danger" necessarily. Remember: Competition is a good thing.

30-odd years ago, US auto manufacturers lapsed into complacent mediocrity because they lacked any serious overseas competition for awhile, a fact which the Japanese went on to exploit brilliantly. It forced Detroit to eventually step up in design and engineering. Lesson learned: American manufacturing needs competition.

Quote:
posted by RKrizman:
Clinton had the right idea that to change or enlighten somebody the best way is to do business with them. The Chinese have become lovers of all things western now.
Rick, I'm glad you mentioned that. I am a huge believer in that philosophy for both the reason you sighted and the one I sighted above. Isolationism is counterproductive on many levels.

In that regard...I've seen Islamic/Arab nations mentioned on this thread variously, and you know, the biggest beef I have with most Arab nations is NOT their views towards the state of Israel, but the fact that they cannot manufacture a lightbulb. That is the truly destructive legacy that Islamic regimes have left to their peoples with their isolationist policies.

When I look at China's 2 billion citizens, I would much rather see 2 billion potential customers, than 2 billion potential enemies. Which outlook seems more humane? I think the former.

Bringing this all back to GM's predicament in the "looking for dangers" regard, it would seem the biggest danger might be this: The same factory that manufactures his gear from 9am to 5pm might clandestinely go on the overnight shift, and that stuff would appear on the black market as GML knock-offs. This has been an issue in the apparel industries for some time.

But as anyone who was once heavily invested in Enron, Tyco, WorldCom, et al, will tell you, one need not go all the way to China to find such dangers.


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Quote:
posted by Pricey:
Yes, all Communist dictatorships should be under embargo. Would you trade with Nazi Germany?
Seeing how the current Bush administration achieved power, and how they've gone on to abuse that power, one could marvel at the potential ironies inherent in that statement.

Furthermore, describing today's China as a "Communist dictatorship" is not merely a vast over-simplification, but could easily be argued to be downright wrong. Officially, the PRC is governed by a "communist" party. But the nation itself is in fact one in which capitalism is widely practiced. Freedom of information, though not complete, is still not completely controlled. Most importantly, there is no "dictator" of the PRC. So, no, the PRC is most definitely NOT a "Communist dictatorship."

I believe there is only one "Communist dictatorship" in existence today: North Korea. Perhaps one or two former Soviet republics still resemble something akin to a "Communist dictatorship," but the fact I cannot recall their names off-hand tells you something about how much of an impact they have on current events.

The "Communist dictatorship" model of governance is dead, and anyone who invokes the "Red Scare" in a discussion such as this needs to recuse himself from the discussion, and go wake up and smell the new millenium.


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I'm semi-pro. Today, GML's equipment is out of my league due to price. I would dearly love to put it in my consideration set for new gear, though. Why? Because of GML's reputation for high quality and value as a tool.

My key gear-buying criteria are:
  • Can I afford it?
  • Is the cost-benefit in-line, or out of line?
  • Is it a quality-made item? (note - Chinese-made is not necessarily bad, nor is American - made necessarily good.)
  • Can I afford it? (yes, again)

I really don't have an axe to grind about where manufacturing is done. There is nothing inherently wrong with supporting a Chinese family vs. an American one by means of a job. As far as sub-standard working conditions, improvements in those evolve as a nation grows economically. As your basic needs are covered, you then begin to focus on quality of life issues - things like length of work week, working conditions, etc.
That's how the US did it. That's also how Japan has evolved. There are still gaps there, but as the society evolves and prospers, they are facing the same issues and cultural revolutions we faced starting in the late 1950's through today. If you really want people in the world to have a better life, give them an opportunity to advance economically. Over time, currency exchange rates will take care of the relative value of a living wage.

I suspect that with judicious choice of an overseas manufacturing partner, you can reasonably determine that your key assembler is not an 8 year old kid. If you can address your intellectual property concerns and your quality concerns adequately, I say go for it. I'd like to add your gear to my realistic wish list, George.

In some ways, this seems like a micrcosm of the entire audio industries dilemna. It used to be, there were 3 critical barriers to entry to the studio/production business - knowledge, salesmanship and capital. Nowadays, readily available low cost tools are forcing the industry to focus on the first two considerations. I don't see this as a bad thing. And George, there is nothing at all wrong with finding a way to put your designs in the hands of more would-be users.

A couple of weeks ago, I had to obtain a replacement card from American Express. I called their 800-number. After navigating the #%*%@$&# phone tree menu, I was speaking with an Indian customer service rep. My first reaction was - why? Upon reflection, I decided that the only thing that disturbed me was the cultural communications barrier - a quality of service issue. It does bother me a little that a company called American Express finds it expedient to export a critical customer service call halfway around the world. But I still have the card in my wallet.

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Quote:
Originally posted by John Sayers:
The top elite in China and India don't give a rats about the poor in their country. They exploit them as well.
This is different in America how?? :-) I don't know if anyone has noticed, but there isn't really much of a middle class in the USA any more and it's shrinking every day as current policy has the poor carry the tax burden and allows the wealth to shift towards the top 5%. Aristocrasy all over again. I doubt the corporate owned media will ever let us know that most of us are slaves.

This is a tremendously interesting discussion.

I would have to say the following things, even as a small time operator I think long and hard about buying anything made from PRC (regardless of whos name is on it) because of a lot of bad previous experience with PRC products. Manufacturing may very well be better, but the bad reputation is burned in my mind and my dollar is more likely to go to a similar, more expensive product that I can trust will work.

If the quality of the products didn't suffer, I think that the reputation would. Don't under estimate the power of a good name.

Nathan


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Quote:
Originally posted by Curve Dominant:
Officially, the PRC is governed by a "communist" party. But the nation itself is in fact one in which capitalism is widely practiced. Freedom of information, though not complete, is still not completely controlled. Most importantly, there is no "dictator" of the PRC.
The Party itself is the dictator. It's dictatorship by committee.

Communist China has done a very good job of hiding its nature. Foreign visitors are only allowed to see what the government wants them to see. They never see the forced-labor camps for dissidents, the orphanages where "excess" children are systematically starved, and the other atrocities that are hidden in the rural areas. Americans are shockingly ignorant about China, just like they were about Soviet Russia and Cuba. Western journalists don't want to rock the boat and get kicked out, so they end up colluding with these regimes and acting as their propagandists.


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Well I've heard this about China:

Big polluter of the world's environment
because there is no law

Big violator of human rights
because there is no law

Big source of theft of IP and illegal copies
because there is no law

Big source of counterfeit goods
because there is no law

Big exploiter of child and prison labor
because there is no law

As there are no laws comparable to American laws, no legal system comparable to the American legal system, it is unlikey that any form of agreement, be it a vain attempt at improving or controlling working conditions, stopping the gross environmental pollution, or simply stopping the illegal copying, would be difficult or impossible for a company the size of GML to enforce.

What will you do if you see a thinly-veiled copy show up in France? Uh...Uh...Uh...How about if it shows up the Philippines? Uh...Uh...Uh...Call the 500 dollar-an-hour lawyers who specialize in international law? Hey, now that's a black hole to fill with the green stuff. Add in the internationl flights, the endless depositions, the legal motions, and maybe some kind of hearing only to get....yup...zippo.

I know the Philippines (Girlfriend has a large family there and I also worked on some feature flicks) and let's just say that they have a way of ignoring these little illegal copying deals...I love all the people of the world, but I want them making things legally in America.

Let me ask this:

How many of you would rather have that name brand German mic over a mic made in China?

What would your top-paying clients think if you did not have that German mic and only offered them mics made in China?

How many of you who are telling this man to risk his reputation, and perhaps his health in the form of an ulcer, only have Chinese mics?

George, don't do it. Don't listen to the low ballers.

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Quote:
Americans are shockingly ignorant about China, just like they were about Soviet Russia and Cuba. Western journalists don't want to rock the boat and get kicked out, so they end up colluding with these regimes and acting as their propagandists.
yup \:\)

China makes Bush's Patriot Act look like an agenda for primary school attendance.

cheers
john

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Yup, but America is rapidly joining in that "Race to the Bottom."

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Yeah - but what's the alternative??

DEMOCRATS? \:D \:D

cheers
John

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John, that was great, but when her lips move she ain't lyin...

or is she? \:\)

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Wow, this simple question surly stirred things around here.. probably you got your answear already.. Jo public stil have problems with made anywhereelse but america stuff...

All has been said and it baiscly boil down to two issues :
1. Price / Quality
2. politics

1. I'm pretty sure Chiness factory can make stuff as good if not better then made in usa. if you simply invest a little more, work with the right people, you can easily keep the high quality your product is known for.
Hell, since manufacturing cost will go down so muchn you'll probably be able to invest more in search&development etc.. so that's not really an issue

2. there will always be people who think "made in my country is better" or "I most support my country so I'll only buy local goods" , but I do think vast majority of professional audio processors buyer are above that.
As for the expoliting side, I always though that what we are a little arrogent if we think we can dictate how they should live their lives anywhere else in the world.

what you can do is make sure your workers get paid a little better, get better conditions etc...

Good luck with your tough call. As you know, most of us will be always behind you (we got your back GM ) \:D

Danny


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First off, I say...define "kids". Are we talking 7, 8, 9 years old? Or are we talking 13, 14, 15? There's a huge difference. I doubt most people didn't work when they were 14, because I know I did. And let's not even count the "hard labor" our parents and grandparents "forced" upon us, depending on what part of the country we lived in (meaning, some basic rites of passage in the US are a lot more demanding than putting together a mic).

Nonetheless, to me, it's all about upholding your name. If sending it to East Jabip sends your world class quality down to one-half-of the world-class quality, then screw that. I also think that if it were GML just starting out, and offered the same fantastic product, few would really care. But you're obviously already established.

I also agree that a separate line (a la, the Gibson/Epiphone example) would be ultra cool. You'd help support your primary line's wish stay in the US with sales to the average joe running a project studio. Also, as Joe profits from improved audio quality in his services, he'll die at the need to upgrade to top shelf GML gear.

Again, I think it's more about being you. If you can do what you do, and sell what you sell at current prices, it's all good. But if it's becoming taxing to stay in business and compete, then that's a whole 'nother thing, that may require some product to be manufactured elsewhere. The last thing anyone wants is to lose GML.

It's so easy to talk about what's right or wrong, ethical and unethical, thousands of miles away. It's also a cop out to talk about stealing jobs from America. Maybe it's not in their field, but there are plenty of jobs available in the US, if you don't consider them to be beneath you. I manage to squeeze in 80 hours Mon-Fri, and in the few hours between jobs and Saturday and Sunday, I record and also create.

It's about quality and staying alive. If you can get that quality and eat using US workers, GREAT. And if you can get that quality at a lesser cost to you, then that's something to think about. However, when a company goes down because they won't send work to East Jabip, Joe Online is not going to send you a care package.
Peace


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Nike sells shoes for $130 that cost probably 1/100th of that to produce so that they can pay Lebron James and Tiger Woods $50 million dollars a year. It's not their competition that drives their need for low cost labor, it's the ridiculous, over the top, bullshit like that. I'm sure Michael Jordan made more for one second of his Nike advertising campaign than an employee at that plant made for an entire year.

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Quote:
Originally posted by hollywood:
Nike sells shoes for $130 that cost probably 1/100th of that to produce so that they can pay Lebron James and Tiger Woods $50 million dollars a year. It's not their competition that drives their need for low cost labor, it's the ridiculous, over the top, bullshit like that. I'm sure Michael Jordan made more for one second of his Nike advertising campaign than an employee at that plant made for an entire year.
My uncle was stationed over in Korea over a decade ago. When he came home the first time, he had a closet full of top name sneakers and clothes. He said he bought most of the shoes for about $5, and some of the clothes for not much more. So now, he refuses to go over a certain dollar mark when buying shoes here.

The Nike/Big Sneaker Giant is another issue altogether. Can a big company like that stay in business by offering a "normal" price on something they are now making a ridiculous figure on? I'd say yes, and MJ will have to settle for 20 mil, instead of 40 mil. But we are talking about big business with them, right. Big Business also has a 400% markup on popcorn. But any smaller company suffers more from the scenario GM presented, than inflated prices the bigger ones put forth.
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pricey:
[QUOTE]
Yes, all Communist dictatorships should be under embargo. Would you trade with Nazi Germany?


If I did it would not be because of the style of government that they had nor because of the ruling party. It would be because of issues about how they chose to manifest their political and social ideologies.

Just because a government is communist does not, in my mind, warrant sanctions. Just because a government is a dictatorship does not, in my mind, warrant sanctions. A government can be communist or a dictatorship and still be of the consent of the people. A government does not have to be democratic in order to have consent of the people nor legitimacy by the people. The Nazi party in Germany, for example, had the people's consent - it was a democratically elected. I like the principles of John Locke in Two Treatises on Government with which our nation was founded. It does not call for democracy. It calls for consent. It is very possible to have a communist government or a dictatorship that happen with the people's consent, thus the style of government by itself does not, in my mind consititute reason to put an embargo in place. Their social practices do.

I think you may be on the right page with what you are saying but you are not saying it very well - tying communist dictatorships in with Nazi Germany, both different governmental structures, and the latter of which was a fine governmental style (I think we'd all agree) except we had disdain for their social practices. I think what you meant to say a page ago was that the real reason not to do business with China was because of their social practices, which are completely removed from the governmental structure. If you insist it is exclusively because they are communist I'm afraid I cannot agree.

Nika.

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Quote:
Originally posted by Nika:

Just because a government is communist does not, in my mind, warrant sanctions. Just because a government is a dictatorship does not, in my mind, warrant sanctions.
Nika.[/QB]
Gee Nika,

I can't think of a better reason.


David Glasser
Airshow Mastering
Boulder, CO

http://www.airshowmastering.com
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