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Quote:
Originally posted by Thermionic:

The '80s wasn't all bad. Off top of head I could suggest Peter Gabriel or Arif Mardin for production examples.

Justin[/QB]
So were the 80's better than now? Or is there a tendency to forget all the bad stuff compared to the not so bad stuff?

Was Kajagoogoo better than Radiohead? That chick who sang that song, Oh mickey your so fine, she was a great singer, way better than Pink. And of course Madonna. The production on her first album is so much warmer than today's dance music, and she's a far more accomplished musician. I can't believe she got signed, the labels must have had a far more artistic approach back then. And, of course, the drum machine, what a great sound on almost every song.

I think the 80's maybe had about the same percentage of what would be considered "crap" as any other time, maybe more (my persoanl opinion is
that is was pretty damn awful).

And as far as the labels pushing something weird or different, I think The White Stripes are pretty weird. Guitar and drums. That's pretty off, isn't it? No computers, no quantizing, sounds nothing like what everyone is constantly complaining about, and they got a huge push, on every magazine cover, and many mainstream tards are apparently buying it.

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Sure there was just as much crap out in the 80's or any other era (and believe me, I would know, because I spent several years in the 80's engineering mostly generic hair metal bands), but the difference is there was ALSO a lot of very good sounding stuff on the radio. Now it seems that because of the "new standards" in engineering almost everything sounds the same regardless of the actual musical content. Yes the White Stripes are an exception but they're a VERY rare exception. Whereas there was a lot of good, well produced stuff in the 80's in addition to the generic crap, and a lot of variety of sound. I think robmix's comments about everybody using the same plugins and such really ring true.

But don't get me wrong, I still bitched in the 80's about everybody wanting to use the same gated Linn drum and Yamaha Rev 7. \:D

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Quote:
Originally posted by SolipsismX:

I'm quite pleased that you took the time to actually download some of the songs to try and answer my questions. I'm also in greater relief that you can actually hear "that sound" because a lot of casual music listeners can't hear it, and you can see what happened in this thread when I asked more experienced people \:\) .
No problem. I'm curious about that sound, too. And I know what it's like to ask a question, only to have those who pretend to know go off on a tangent of vitriol and sour grapes ;\) . It's safe to say, that after 4 pages on this thread, no one here knows \:\( .

Wish I could help. My feeling is that it's something done in mastering or remixing. Some sort of major compression and use of exciters or something, and not so much in the tracking or original production, though maybe certain styles lend themselves more to this.

But, I, unlike many others, can admit readily, that I don't really know! \:\)

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Quote:
Originally posted by SolipsismX:
I was wondering if there were any engineers on this forum who did this kind of work, but I can't seem to find any. Anybody want to step up to the plate? \:D
Heheh... you know, there HAVE been engineers on this forum who've done that kind of work. Occasionally they do step up to the plate. However most of them won't take "the blame" per se for the way the record sounds. It's always that the mastering engineer screwed it up, and the ME says he didn't want to do it that way but the label made him, etc. Everybody's got to pay the bills and sometimes people accept work they're not proud of, in order to do that.

Which begs the question, who started "That Sound" and does anybody actually like it? I must say I've yet to run across many people who do. Maybe Charles Dye. \:D Most people I run into who've done that kind of work either apologize for it or they just do it that way because that's what they were taught or that's what they can afford.

Actually, if you do a search in David Frangioni's forum there was a huge discussion a couple of years ago about the recent Aerosmith record... which most people agreed was a great record song-wise and performance-wise but just sounded horrible, for all the reasons we've been discussing here. Everybody started trying to figure out why and we were joined by several of the engineers who worked on the record, none of whom would cop to being the one(s) responsible for "That Sound." So, draw your own conclusions.

Edit: Here is the link to the Frangioni thread on Aerosmith.

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Quote:
Originally posted by Lee Flier:
Yes the White Stripes are an exception but they're a VERY rare exception.
Yeah, but they prove it's possible, in this supposedly hopeless, pessimistic world, to change the ironclad rules, and do whatever you want.

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But don't get me wrong, I still bitched in the 80's about everybody wanting to use the same gated Linn drum and Yamaha Rev 7. \:D
Did the bitching work?

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Quote:
Originally posted by zzzzzzzzz:
Yeah, but they prove it's possible, in this supposedly hopeless, pessimistic world, to change the ironclad rules, and do whatever you want.
Sure. Which is pretty much what many of us are doing anyway, even if we don't aspire to the Billboard charts. Just because people complain doesn't mean we think the world is hopeless - that's your spin on it. Mine is quite the opposite.

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Did the bitching work?
In some cases, yes. As someone who has been a social activist as well as an engineer and musician, I've always felt that positive change begins with awareness, and "awareness" usually starts with people stating a problem, i.e. bitching. That often gets people re-thinking things and usually produces a better result than unquestioningly doing things the same as everybody else. I've found that to be the case in the studio, I say my piece and then if the client still decides to "go with the flow," well at least they've affirmed that that's what they really want. 'Course nowadays I don't take on projects that want "that sound" whereas in the 80's, I was doing it for most of my income so I sometimes had to.

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I don't believe that it's my spin on it. The only reason I'm posting is because of the overwhelming number of threads and posts that dwell completely on the negative, on what they hate about what other people are doing.

I also believe there is a difference between relentless bitching for change and sharing ideas for change.

What I see is much more a judgemental bitching, then a desire to make people aware, or to share without casting aspersions.

If someone wants to do music a certain way, they should be free to do so, without someone bitching at them. I noticed someone on another thread avoided this thread because of the "bashing" of the tools they use. To me, this is sad.

Some people want to line drums up to a grid. They like it, and they don't need someone bitching at them about why it's "wrong", because to them, it's not wrong. Do people like "that sound"? They must, or it wouldn't sell, and the labels would switch to the sound that's selling. (I'm not sure if that Aerosmith CD qualifies, btw.)

I don't believe music changes through social activism. It changes through music. The Beatles didn't change the world by writing posts about what's wrong with music. They just made music that changed the world.

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Quote:
Originally posted by zzzzzzzzz:
I don't believe that it's my spin on it. The only reason I'm posting is because of the overwhelming number of threads and posts that dwell completely on the negative, on what they hate about what other people are doing.

I also believe there is a difference between relentless bitching for change and sharing ideas for change.
I think you do put a spin on it, because in most of the threads that "bitch" there are posts or portions of posts that are sharing ideas for change. Sure there are some that don't. Hey, people gotta make a living and sometimes it's frustrating for them to work on the projects they work on and they have to vent. But there've been some really good things said too, in this thread. Several people have already said they thought it was a great thread so they're getting something positive from it.

Also, there ARE a lot of threads and posts that offer positive and helpful information, but I rarely seem to see you in any of those.

Quote:

If someone wants to do music a certain way, they should be free to do so, without someone bitching at them.
They ARE free to do so. But hey, if you're going to make music and put it out there in the world there are going to be people who don't like it. You think people are bad on here? Have you ever tried going to an artist "fan site?" You haven't seen "bashing" till you've done that. \:D

Quote:

Some people want to line drums up to a grid. They like it, and they don't need someone bitching at them about why it's "wrong", because to them, it's not wrong.
Then they don't need to read about it. Nobody's coming to their studio and telling them what to do.

Quote:

Do people like "that sound"? They must, or it wouldn't sell, and the labels would switch to the sound that's selling.
Actually, as we've mentioned already, sales are down. Sure there are people who like "that sound" but that doesn't mean EVERY RECORD on the radio has to have it. And the label's can't "switch to what's selling" because they really don't KNOW whether any other sound would sell - they're not releasing much else. Actually, like you said, the White Stripes have proven that THEY can sell so perhaps that will open a few eyes to the fact that there's more out there that will sell than that one sound. But who knows.

Quote:
The Beatles didn't change the world by writing posts about what's wrong with music. They just made music that changed the world.
Actually the Internet didn't exist back then, so we don't know that the Beatles wouldn't have bitched on these forums. They certainly DID bitch though, about the state of pop music at the time. The Stones and the Who and other groups of the time were even more open about it, complaining about all the "bubblegum" on the charts (which was certainly the case in the early 60's). The Beatles were a bit less vocal in public because they were trying to maintain an image, but in subsequent interviews they certainly did talk about what an awful dearth of good music there was in the early 60's and how they had to get American blues records from visiting sailors in order to get anything good. Based on what they said later, I'm quite sure they constantly bitched about it in private.

It is quite possible to bitch about what's wrong AND make music that changes the world. \:D

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I just try to not be so fatalistic about the current state of musical affairs.

We are surely at a transitional point in the development of recorded music. It is hard to keep yourself oriented when you have to have one foot in the past, and one in the future.

Nevertheless: that is where we find ourselves.

Yes there are a lot of bad recordings being made, and yes a small group of mixing and mastering engineers are dominating the current aesthetic. That being said, there are more people, musicians and otherwise, who are having to develop their engineering skills. Perhaps more people than at any time in the history of recorded music.

Out the this veritable army will emerge the next George Massenburgs, Bob Clearmountains, and Bruce Swediens. Music technology has always been a dynamic and changing landscape. In the end how music sounds in any given era is determined by those making the music; for better or worse.

I hope that mine is for the better.


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A while ago I had a discussion about the latest 'Muse' CD (Absolution).

A number of young guys on a forum were discussing the fantastic sound of it.

My son had just bought that CD and complained about the sound of it, so we listened and recorded it in Wavelab.

It sounds as flat as a pancake and has zero dynamics and distorts like hell which you can see very good in Wavelab.

The discussion went on and one of the guys said,' you have a point, it sounds a bit fucked, it's almost always at zero'.

I'm an old fart and my favorite sound is the real thing, lots of dynamics and deepness and width, like in those great Bill Putnam recordings.

But those young guys don't even like this sound at all, they like that 'in your face' sound, as they call it, a lot more.

So what do you guys think of that?


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Well, we can go back and forth forever. If you and most everyone here feel that the bitching and bashing is useful, then that's fine.

And yes, i realize that this goes on all over the internet and everywhere, but I think it's draining and uninspiring.

As far as me not showing up on positive threads, like i said before, I only have so much time, and I felt compelled to address this (essentially a waste of my time and everyone elses, unfortunately, although I enjoyed some of the Britney stuff, and other things that were funny).

What the Beatles said in private, I have no idea. If you believe they bitched constantly in private, that's up to you. I'm going to go ahead and believe that they bitched occasionally for laughs, but didn't really dwell much on what they didn't like, but mainly focused on their own music and the music that moved them and that they enjoyed, and so that's what I'm going to do.

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quote Beppe Colli:
When it comes to the sound level that's present in our environment, I don't think that the problem is how noisy appliances are, but how much importance we attribute to "silence". Without quiet, I cannot read, write or concentrate on the task at hand. If there's no silence, I cannot really do justice to a CD I have to review. But this appears not to be important for most people who live in environments that are increasingly noisy by their own design/choosing. I've done the experiment of taking some of my favourite CDs into a public place I go to, and they are immediately swallowed by the ambience (too much dinamic range, too complex, too many chords). Try a Top 40 title and it shines.

Yes, Thank you for clarifying my poorly worded thoughts. While cars and appliances may be quieter than before, the total ambient noise floor is typically much louder than it used to be in most places (especially public areas). Silence is becoming a rare commodity. Much of today's pop music is squashed and mixed very upfront in order to cut through the ambient noise.

I think the way most people perceive music is changing also. Music is just a soundtrack for video or other activities. Very little time is spent focused on music alone. How often can you get someone to listen to JUST ONE SONG ALL THE WAY THROUGH without speaking, watching a video screen or doing something else? Try it sometime, and enjoy some silence if you can find any.

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Greetings,

I know that I am probably going to take a lot of flack because of this statement. But in my travels I have found that AWESOME MUSICIANS ARE RARELY GREAT WRITERS!!!! Not saying that top notch muscians can't write, it just seems that playing and writing are two separate art forms and its is rare to find someone that is highly gifted in both. In fact some of the best writers are only average musicians, if they can even be called that. It seems as if you spend most of your time playing and honing your chops, or most of your time writing and rewriting.

Second, I think we are in a period of technological overload. And it affects how musicians approach thier instruments and how engineers mix songs. The engineer has too many tools, with staggering levels of complexity to choose from, and not enough time to master them. How many engineers can say that they know the ins and outs of more than maybe 5 to 10 pieces of cutting edge gear, if that many. And when you truly endeavor to learn something new in its entirety, if your not careful the brain will start flushing something else that can be valuble to make room for all of these new discoveries.

The quality of the instruments, amps, effects, etc (technology) makes it much easier for a muscians to fake themselves into believing they are more talented than they are. And the technology itself can become a distraction because that is just something else you have to spend time learning.

In closing I think great songs are still being written today, unfortunately much of it just isn't seeing that light of day. The industry isnt the same as it was in the 50's 60's. If you had a good song you could be singing it on the street corner today and three weeks later hearing it on the radio. And the stuff that does make generally falls into the hands of the technology warriors whether its the musicians or engineers that are on gear overload!!!!

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Quote:
Originally posted by zzzzzzzzz:
And yes, i realize that this goes on all over the internet and everywhere, but I think it's draining and uninspiring.
Well then maybe you shouldn't get involved in these threads and instead only read and respond to the ones that are positive and inspire you (or start your own that are more in line with what you'd like to discuss).

Quote:

What the Beatles said in private, I have no idea. If you believe they bitched constantly in private, that's up to you. I'm going to go ahead and believe that they bitched occasionally for laughs, but didn't really dwell much on what they didn't like, but mainly focused on their own music and the music that moved them and that they enjoyed, and so that's what I'm going to do.
That's what I do too, and I think that's what I'm saying is that you seem to read these threads and get an impression that "that's all people do" but in reality it's only a tiny slice out of our lives. Some people get on here if they've had a frustrating day at work and they want to "vent" to some fellow enginers who understand what they're going through, and the whole rest of the week they've spent making music and being positive. And there's plenty of positive, helpful and inspiring stuff on these forums too, a lot of it posted by the same people who like to bitch. You should also check out some of the musical work of the people who post here and have links to their web sites and/or a discography you can see. There is some great music being made by folks on these forums and if you listen to it you'll see that there's NO WAY all they do is bitch.

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Having followed these kind of threads on many internet forums, I'm always struck by the same (to me) glaringly obvious point:

Who the fuck cares WHAT state mainstream pop is in at any given time?

I mean, this is the most glorious age EVER, in all of history, to be a music fan in! An astounding amount of music, from all areas and cultures is available to us. Even just 15-20 years ago, I had to comb through dusty record bins to find badly scratched used copies of the old blues and jazz records I coveted.

Now, you can walk into even the most generic music superstore and probably find a decent blues and jazz section. Same goes for most other genres you can think of.

And even talking of contemporary artists, there are more than I can even keep up with doing remarkable work. Most of them are far off the radar of the mainstream media of course. But great! When, occasionally, one of them does hit it big, well... good for them, but there goes my chances of seeing them in a reasonably small venue for under $60.

I mean, really people... it's never been better. But of course if your reference point continues to be top 40, then yeah... it sucks pretty bad. But I'm afraid the days when you could rely on the major media to alert you to quality are long gone (if indeed they were ever truly here).

You gotta do your own digging. And man, there's a lifetime of digging to do.

Chris

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Quote:
Originally posted by Lee Flier:
There is some great music being made by folks on these forums and if you listen to it you'll see that there's NO WAY all they do is bitch.
I never said ALL they do is bitch, and i'm sure there are plenty of fine people here who are good at what they do. I don't know, I've tried making my point (it's a very simple one) in sarcastic ways, in trollish ways, and in calm, and what I think, are clear ways, so I don't know what else to say on it. It doesn't matter, because I have as much chance of changing the way people here think about these things as you all do of changing the way people make music ;\) . That's a happy bit of pessimism for you!

Okay, now back to making music. Let's see, I've got my autotune and a cracked copy of Acid and a $50 chinese condensor, now all I need is a hot young slut who can lip sync...

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((I think the 80's sound was much generally more horrendous in terms of pop music production than what we hear nowadays.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry. Gotta disagree there. There was alot of really cool stuff going on. Even LAurie Anderson had a hit with "oh superman". That would never happen today with the generic formula's and tightly controlled radioplay.))

You raise an excellent point which is that its impossible nowadays, thanks to Clear Channel & Clear Channel like media conglomerates for oddball tracks like this to sweep out of nowhere & get tons of airplay.
This also doesn't help music much I think as $ does not filter to indie operations who would be producing the new cutting edge sounds of tomorrow.

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some replies to various comments:

All this thread is false and nonsense.
Today there is NO perfect sound around.
The squashed, no dynamic, shrill sound is not due to DAWs (apart Pro Tools and some other which actually destroy the sound) but to FALSE sound engineers who prefere a 3d button than a nice sound.


I think the "perfect" sound he was referring to was the lined up rhythms, the auto tune, the completely discreet instruments, and the lack of a live sound like no bad notes and acoutic instruments that sound almost looped. Also, I wasn't blaming pro tols, my tone SHOULD have come off more like, "It can't just be the DAWS and mastering, so what is it?"

Now it seems that because of the "new standards" in engineering almost everything sounds the same regardless of the actual musical content. Yes the White Stripes are an exception but they're a VERY rare exception

See, I consider the white stripes to be part of the problem. Maybe not in the engineering dept., but they definitely aren't pushing rock forward, they're just hanging back. Not only that, they are making classic blues rock really dumb. Their songs are way too simple and they lack good song writing skills IMO. And of course, a whole genre is created based off that style of music which has been done to death.

Quote:
What I see is much more a judgemental bitching, then a desire to make people aware, or to share without casting aspersions.
Do you feel that judgment should be left at the door only in these forums or in general? I can understand why we'd leave it at the door in the forums to prevent flamewars in a "professional forum," but not leaving them at the doors in general. If somebody is allowed to say, "Hey this is cool and this why," then somebody should be allowed to say, "Hey this sucks and this is why." An opinion isn't suddenly invald because it is a negative one.

Do people like "that sound"? They must, or it wouldn't sell, and the labels would switch to the sound that's selling. (I'm not sure if that Aerosmith CD qualifies, btw.)

Well records sold fine before "the sound" so I don't think people have to necessarily like it more than another. Maybe they can tolerate it or maybe they just don't notice it, but I wouldn't assume they like it. And also, I agree that Aerosmith doesn't fit "that sound" that I was referring to in the original post (but obviously, it's hard for people to know what sound I am referring to).

But those young guys don't even like this sound at all, they like that 'in your face' sound, as they call it, a lot more.

Are you sure that those guys who liked the sound in that Muse CD weren't referring to other things in the production other than the squashed mastering? Maybe if it was remastered with the dynamics put back in (assuming they were there to begin with), they'd still like it.

[B]I mean, really people... it's never been better. But of course if your reference point continues to be top 40, then yeah... it sucks pretty bad. But I'm afraid the days when you could rely on the major media to alert you to quality are long gone (if indeed they were ever truly here). B]

I disagree, I think it was perfect in the late 90's. Even though certain bands were beginning to take over, it wasn't unheard of to hear those "off the radar" bands on the radio or on mtv. Also, production was more original and the recording industry wasn't in the sad state it is in now.

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Quote:
Originally posted by SolipsismX:

See, I consider the white stripes to be part of the problem. Maybe not in the engineering dept., but they definitely aren't pushing rock forward, they're just hanging back. Not only that, they are making classic blues rock really dumb. Their songs are way too simple and they lack good song writing skills IMO. And of course, a whole genre is created based off that style of music which has been done to death.
I agree actually, I'm not really a fan, but that's a commentary about the music itself, not the audio. I think from a production-only standpoint their stuff is much more listenable than most of what's out there... which unfortunately includes some artists that I would otherwise like.

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Quote:
Originally posted by bandini:
Having followed these kind of threads on many internet forums, I'm always struck by the same (to me) glaringly obvious point:

Who the fuck cares WHAT state mainstream pop is in at any given time?

I mean, this is the most glorious age EVER, in all of history, to be a music fan in! An astounding amount of music, from all areas and cultures is available to us. Even just 15-20 years ago, I had to comb through dusty record bins to find badly scratched used copies of the old blues and jazz records I coveted.

Now, you can walk into even the most generic music superstore and probably find a decent blues and jazz section. Same goes for most other genres you can think of.

And even talking of contemporary artists, there are more than I can even keep up with doing remarkable work. Most of them are far off the radar of the mainstream media of course. But great! When, occasionally, one of them does hit it big, well... good for them, but there goes my chances of seeing them in a reasonably small venue for under $60.

I mean, really people... it's never been better. But of course if your reference point continues to be top 40, then yeah... it sucks pretty bad. But I'm afraid the days when you could rely on the major media to alert you to quality are long gone (if indeed they were ever truly here).

You gotta do your own digging. And man, there's a lifetime of digging to do.

Chris
You're still going to have to listen to scratched up old LPs to hear a lot of things. Digging is a good word for it! Some things you will have to hear on 78, and of course many of the best things have never been recorded at all... some are still around and you can hear them in person.

The Portland OR Library sold all their LPs and replaced it all with CDs! Only most of what was on those LPs is *not* on the CDs... lots of ethnographic records that you simply will not be able to hear again without incredible sleuthing...

But yes, digging is what you need to do to learn what you need to learn about all the wonderful music that has gone on, and continues to go on, amidst the dreck...

I actually am happy to be as obscure as I am, so when someone hears something marvelous, which we are occasionally capable of, that sounds not quite like anything a given listener has heard of before, they know the place to look for more is not in any of the mass media outlets, but in another "who'd of thunk it?" type of place. I wouldn't care to function as an ad for the powers that be in any way...

...easy for me to say, I'm not likely to be offered that opportunity!

Hey zzzzz, if you're not bitching, who is? Complaining about complaining is still complaining, no?


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Isn't it our obligation to give the client the type of sound they want? I know my clients would be bummed if I gave them less than my best. I will always use the best tools I have at my disposal to get the job done. I think one of the biggest problems we as engineers have faced, has been the advent of plug ins. Everyone is using the same exact sounds for proccessing. This makes it hard to distinguish a modern and yet unique sound. Pro Tools, Auto Tune, Waves, Bomb Factory etc. The problem is many artists are either lip-sinking or using Auto Tuning and other proccessing live, so people expect more out of a record. Who's to stop them?

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Quote:
Originally posted by patrox247:
Isn't it our obligation to give the client the type of sound they want? I know my clients would be bummed if I gave them less than my best. I will always use the best tools I have at my disposal to get the job done. I think one of the biggest problems we as engineers have faced, has been the advent of plug ins. Everyone is using the same exact sounds for proccessing. This makes it hard to distinguish a modern and yet unique sound. Pro Tools, Auto Tune, Waves, Bomb Factory etc. The problem is many artists are either lip-sinking or using Auto Tuning and other proccessing live, so people expect more out of a record. Who's to stop them?
True, but you could say the same thing about everyone using the same hardware. U87's LA2's 1176's, Massive Passive, George's gear, etc. The difference is how the engineer uses the equipment. We all have different ears and have ideas on how we want things to sound.

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Good point. But it seems to me that analog gear has a much larger spectrum of versatility to it than that of its digital counterparts. My Massive Passive for instance was designed with the soul purpose of performing its tasks at the highest possible level. Its job is to be a good tone/EQ proccessor not to emulate certain sonic traits which other gear exhibits. When I'm using plug ins, I seem "locked into" a sound. Where as the analog gear can be "pushed" hard for flavor or due a fairly transparent job depending on how I want to use it. Good analog is made perform. Plug ins (the majority anyhow) are made to emulate. It's the whole emulation thing that makes everything sound the same to me. Line 6, plug ins, Digi...You know what I'm getting at.

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I've read through this topic with great interest, as the subject of over compressed "masters" is one close to my heart.
You cannot blame the tools. The only people to blame are the operators and the record companies that demand this over compressed garbage.
There is a very simple answer - don't mix & master so god damned loud. You squash all the dynamics out in a way that was not possible with analogue. This does NOT make digital bad, it merely means there are a lot of people out there who simply do not know how to use their gear.

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I wish the answer really WAS that simple. The problem is that a lot of people who DO (or should) know how to use their gear, are squashing the life out of everything anyhow, often at the behest of labels or other parties who feel they have to compete with the "loudest." So long as the loudness wars continue, people seem willing to abuse their gear at the expense of fidelity so long as they are getting paid for it.

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Quote:
Originally posted by SolipsismX:
Do you feel that judgment should be left at the door only in these forums or in general? I can understand why we'd leave it at the door in the forums to prevent flamewars in a "professional forum," but not leaving them at the doors in general. If somebody is allowed to say, "Hey this is cool and this why," then somebody should be allowed to say, "Hey this sucks and this is why." An opinion isn't suddenly invald because it is a negative one.
Sure people should be allowed negative opinions. As has been pointed out a number of times, I'm being negative about the attitudes here (I love that argument, boy it shuts me right up :p ) .

I do feel that in a recording forum, there should be more respect for all kinds of music, and all kinds of approaches, whether you think they are good or bad. It's my opinion that this negativity has fallen down to a degree of childish bashing, to a relentless point of uselessness. (As you point out, this is a pro forum, but has your question been answered yet? No, because people are too busy listening to the sound of there own voices venting about the usual. And it's possible that this childish relentless bashing has driven away the people who could have answered your question.)

I feel that these discussions have become as cliche as the PS vs. Mac discussions that seem to annoy most people, but, this is about music, and music should be respected at least a little more, like the ocean or something :rolleyes: .

If I made the sort of nasty unconstructive comments, that are made daily about successful mainstream music and the people who make it, about the music made by people here, would that be good for anyone?

I made a generalistic crack about baby boomers, and someone got all upset, like what a prejudiced jerk I am, but daily, there are very nasty generalistic cracks made about young engineers, and young musicians and singers, none of whom apparently know what they're doing.

The case has been made countless times that today's music isn't any good, the sound isn't any good, the labels aren't any good, the tools are being abused, .....blah, blah, blah.
(and then the reply, "no, there's good music, it's just not on the radio, you have to search for it!")

Okay, so today's music sucks, and the sound sucks. Case closed already. So now what? If you just keep picking at a scab, it's not going to go away.

John Lennon said: People asking questions, lost in confusion, I tell them there's no problems, only solutions.

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Kaz Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by SolipsismX:
See, I consider the white stripes to be part of the problem.

Well records sold fine before "the sound" so I don't think people have to necessarily like it more than another.
The point regarding The white stripes is simply that they are different, good or bad, forward or backward, they don't have "that sound", and lots of other things about them are breaking all the cliches that people are going on about.

I'm not saying that people like that sound better than another sound. But maybe that sound is appealing right now. sounds come and go. Lo-fi, hi fi, lots of reverb, no reverb, in your face, big arrangements, dirty sound, clean sound. There have been lots of trends in "sounds", and that is the sound of now, good or bad. I'll bet a million dollars that it too will pass, and there will be a whole new sound to hate \:\) .

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