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Someone over at the RNC needs to tell Robert Novak what time it is ..... he's still criticizing Bush ...... here's an excerpt from today's Sun-Times column:

Quote:
During more than eight months before Election Day, Bush will have many opportunities for recuperation. For now, however, the president is in political retreat, with Democrats unimpeded in challenging his competency and credibility.
entire article

...c'mon -- can we please keep the Republicans off the president?

Miroslav -- if this is just "tennis," then why is Bush getting attacked by his own team? Isn't Novak just calling it like he sees it? Why can't you see it too?

You have to understand that for every Republican article I post (and there have been many), I pass up 20 articles from MoveOn.org, TomPaine.com, AntiWar.com, let alone reputable leftos like The New Republic, The Nation, Mother Jones, Atlantic Monthly, Harpers Magazine, The New Yorker, etc.. It's not just the left that's attacking the guy.....

Bush's ebb in credibility is the state of the union -- deal with it. It's his own fault....he fostered a culture of deceit and now he's reaping what he's sown.

BTW, Miro -- did you read that Pat Buchanan piece? Is that not the most horrific breach of sanity? The Office of Special Plans .... 10 times worse than anything Oliver North ever dreamed up!

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Quote:
Originally posted by dtobocman:
The Republicans' trouble is a lot more substantive than you're willing to admit. Bush and the Republicans are in a big hole right now and they'll be playing catch up for a while, if not right up until the election. If it's tennis, then they're down a couple sets right now.....
I think I already stated that I don't see the Bush Admin as being perfect a couple of posts back when you said:

Quote:
Quote:
Oh, and if you think everything's hunky dory with Bush, you're totally in denial.
No...I'm not that much of a fanatic. ;\)
Also...the real political tennis match only begins when the Dems…pick a candidate…and…he lays out his campaign platform.
So far...neither has happened.
They're just warming up now...hitting a few balls back and forth over the net... \:D

Unless something very substantial (other than innuendo, speculation and proposed investigation)...pops up...like...
...that Bush really was AWOL...or...
...the economy does another major dive...or...
...someone coughs up some hard proof that Bush out-and-out lied about many thing WRT the Iraq war...
...you will be in for a surprise when Bush and the Dem candidate (Kerry I guess) finally DO go head-to-head.
And...I think it will be a very close race either way...
…even if Kerry wins, it will not prove that most of the country is against Bush...

I think the way some things are being presented by the Bush opposition...it's as though "most" people are against Bush...and only some die-hard fanatics still support him...
…but I think it's pretty much still a 50/50 thing...just like in 2000.


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Quote:
Originally posted by dtobocman:
...did you read that Pat Buchanan piece?
Eh...Buchanan... :rolleyes: \:D


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If I were an American I'd be hopping mad right now. After being attacked by a bunch of Saudi fanatics, my government goes on a wild goose chase in Iraq because Saddam might have "weapons of mass destruction" and may be likely to give them to terrorists at the slightest provocation. All this at a cost of 500+ American lives, 10,000+ Iraqi lives (about half of that number, civilians) and God-alone-knows how many billions of taxpayers' hard-earned dollars.

Meanwhile, in nearby Pakistan, where some of those Saudi fanatics and their leader probably fled to, it turns out that the head of the security services was one of the main financiers of 9/11 and the father of their nuclear bomb program was busy selling those same "weapons of mass destruction" to the whole "Axis of Evil" with the exception of, you guessed it, Iraq.

Maybe he was selling them to terrorists as well, but we will never know. Why? Because our good buddy Perverse Musharef says Qadeer Khan is forgiven, there was no one else involved, there's no need for an investigation, it's an "internal matter", and by the way, "No, you can't come into Pakistan to look for Bin Laden".

WTF???!!!!!??????

With friends like these who needs Saddam??????

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Miroslav -- you are trying to paint this as merely Democrats attacking Bush. It ain't.

I've posted about 10 different articles that proves this to be true. You just keep intoning the same shit over and over.

Whatever.....

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Quote:
Originally posted by dtobocman:
...you are trying to paint this as merely Democrats attacking Bush. It ain't.
"Bush opposition"...who ever they are... \:\)

Quote:
You just keep intoning the same shit over and over.
Ahhh...you tend to drone a bit too, Dave! \:D

Hey...here's one for you on Kerry (don't know how true it is...I'm just passing it on).

http://www.drudgereport.com/mattjk1.htm


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Quote:
Originally posted by mars:
All this at a cost of 500+ American lives, 10,000+ Iraqi lives (about half of that number, civilians) and God-alone-knows how many billions of taxpayers' hard-earned dollars.
Oops! My bad - latest figures (courtesy Reuters) are:

537 American troops
30,000 Iraqi troops
'up to' 10,000 Iraqi civilians

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Miroslav -- THEDRUDGEREPORT??

You're totally missing the point. Anyone can post "opposition research"....that's not hard. There's no end to negative stuff you can find put forward by the opposite party.

I've been posting criticism of Bush by his own party .... George Will, Bill O'Reilly, Peggy Noonan, Pat Buchanan, Bob Novak, Dennis Hastart, Business Week, The Wall Street Journal......hardly "the opposition." Not exactly what you'd expect to find as a kickoff for "election season."

You're going to great lengths to distort the truth and deny facts. Not surprising -- it's well-known by now what you're made of. It's well-known how high of tolerance you have for disinformation and outright lies.......anything for "the cause," huh, Miroslav?

Is there any source more straight up the center than Time Magazine?



THEDRUDGEREPORT????

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Here's a compendium of the articles I've recently posted......fuck me, that's a lot of criticism coming from the center and especially the right.....at some point you've got to be worried about negative coattails if you're a Republican -- right?

Serves Bush right for fostering a culture of deceit -- he's getting exactly what he deserves -- a growing "credibility gap." How appropriate for him to have an incorrectable problem with credibility when he played around so much with "plausible deniability" regarding facts in making his case for war. I call it justice.

Hmmm .... looks to me a lot more substantial than re-posting a single rumor from off of the proudly rabid and salacious DRUDGEREPORT......

from the left:

Paul Krugman/Office of Special Plans

from the center:

Christian Science Monitor Article/US security re:North Korea

New York Times/Bush\'s base support softens, incl. Bill O\'Reilly

Time Magazine/Bush\'s lack of credibility

International Herald Tribune/US security suffers with credibility at low ebb

Knight-Ridder op-ed/Office of Special Plans

from the right:

Reuters/Peggy Noonan on Bush Meet the Press Appearance (yikes!)

George Will op-ed/Bush\'s lack of credibility

Robert Novak #1/Bush\'s lack of credibility

Robert Novak #2/Bush\'s weakness due to lack of credibility

Pat Buchanan/Pentagon Office of Special Plans, Bush credibility

Dennis Hastert/Official press release denouncing Bush\'s outsourcing plan

Business Week/Bush\'s lack of credibility re: 2005 budget

Wall Street Joural/Bush credibility re:2005 budget (quoted directly in Slate)

just for yucks:

Cato Institute/Bush Doctrine is an ineffective sham

Eternally Yours,

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Quote:
Originally posted by dtobocman:
Miroslav -- THEDRUDGEREPORT??
I knew you'd like that! \:\)

Dave, Dave, Dave....you are too serious!

I know some of the issues here ARE serious...but that doesn't mean we can't have some fun discussing them...right?
I've mentioned several times already that many of my posts are done with tongue-in-cheek.

Look...if you go back 40-50-60 years...there wasn't a single President that was a “perfect prince”.
OK...some were/are more radical/polarizing/controversial...but you know, we survived them all!!!
I can't recall any one of them being a total tyrant, or completely screwing up the USA...and that is also the case with our current Pres...Bush.

I know he's made some screw-ups, and says/does things that sometimes make even his supporters go..."huh?"...
…but it's not as extreme as you and many others are making out to be. Not any more than some past Presidents.

You have this way of implying/suggesting with many of your posts, that just about every Dem/Lib political approach/idea/plan is somehow unquestionable in it's wisdom and intent…
…while the Rep/Con stuff is wrong/suspect/bad… :rolleyes:

Be a little more of a realist and less of an idealist...and I bet we could meet somewhere toward the middle.

Quote:
Eternally Yours,

--------------------
David Tobocman
Eternally...huh?

You sure you want to go that far? ;\)

Hey...9 months to go.
When the time comes...we all go to the voting booth and make our selections.
Then the Electoral College makes theirs.
Then maybe we play around with some more hanging chads a bit... :p
...but eventually we will know who the Pres will be for the next 4 years.
And then...we get to do it all over again in 2008!!!

We ALL survived a lot of different personalities/characters in the White House...I'm sure that who EVER wins in 2004...we will survive that one too!!! \:D


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get a room

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Hey...this is an open forum/thread.
Many people can post...or only a few can post.

What's bothering you most...
...reading everyone else's posts...or not having anything of your own to add? ;\)

Come join us...and we'll make it a threesome!!! :p


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Quote:
Originally posted by miroslav:

Dave, Dave, Dave....you are too serious!

I know some of the issues here ARE serious...but that doesn't mean we can't have some fun discussing them...right?
I've mentioned several times already that many of my posts are done with tongue-in-cheek.
Miroslav, here's a tip -- when you're being humorous, try to be funny too.....

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Quote:
Originally posted by natpub:
get a room
...now that's funny!

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Quote:
Originally posted by dtobocman:
Quote:
Originally posted by miroslav:

Dave, Dave, Dave....you are too serious!

I know some of the issues here ARE serious...but that doesn't mean we can't have some fun discussing them...right?
I've mentioned several times already that many of my posts are done with tongue-in-cheek.
Miroslav, here's a tip -- when you're being humorous, try to be funny too.....
Oh...

...so your one of those people that needs a joke explained to them...

...and then...

...it's not funny any more! \:D

OK...pour vous, Dave...

...I'll try and make the humor a bit more obvious from now on! ;\)


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Allies of Bush Criticize Deficit

... more Republicans piling on!

Y'know, it's bad enough when the Democrats attack you, but your own team?

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Hard times for an honest man?

Excerpt:
Quote:
Most Americans surveyed said they believe President Bush either lied or deliberately exaggerated evidence that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction in order to justify war, according to a new Washington Post/ ABC News poll.
article


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Quote:
Originally posted by miroslav:
Quote:
Originally posted by dtobocman:
Quote:
Originally posted by miroslav:

Dave, Dave, Dave....you are too serious!

I know some of the issues here ARE serious...but that doesn't mean we can't have some fun discussing them...right?
I've mentioned several times already that many of my posts are done with tongue-in-cheek.
Miroslav, here's a tip -- when you're being humorous, try to be funny too.....
Oh...

...I'll try and make the humor a bit more obvious from now on! ;\)
Not necessary -- just make the humor funny from now on....

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Bush adviser backs off pro-outsourcing comment

This can't be helping the old credibility gap, can it?

It'll probably help to get Dennis Hastert to shut up....for now ;\)

Did anyone not see Bush just wink at his voting base of empowered Republicans and 1%-ers just then --- it goes something like this.....

Oh, outsourcing? That's very, very bad (wink, wink). We're going to try to keep jobs in this country (nudge, nudge). The American Worker is our top priority (tee-hee....).

SAY ONE THING!!!!

(do something different)

.... let's see how much this two-faced about-face will let him off the hook with working people .....

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Can it get more centrist than the Associated Press? Seems the nation is reaching a consensus -- George W. Bush has a problem with telling the truth......

excerpt:
Quote:
One of Bush's biggest problems concerns his credibility, the idea that he's a leader who speaks the truth and isn't afraid to level with people. It was one of the attributes he stressed four years ago in trying to distinguish himself from President Clinton. Now, Bush is getting the lowest ratings of his presidency on whether people view him as honest and trustworthy.

The credibility problems became noticeable last month when Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill asserted that Bush began laying the groundwork to invade Iraq just days after taking office in 2001. Then former weapons inspector David Kay came out with his headline-grabbing conclusion that Saddam Hussein did not have the weapons of mass destruction that Bush claimed he had as America went to war.

"Obviously there have been some severe jolts to his credibility and it's showing up in a bunch of polls," said Mark Schulman, who conducts national surveys and is not attached to any candidate.

Credibility questions are just one of Bush's headaches......
full article

This is what happens when you're response to a total lack of any evidence of WMDs after the war is ".....So? What's the difference...?"

The difference is that people start to assume that you're probably bullshitting, no matter what the issue, no matter what you say. Not a problem if you're Bill Clinton -- probably devastating to Bush.....

Whatever you think, it really can't be said that only the Democratic opposition is questioning Bush's veracity and wondering if he has a tendancy to lie. It's been asserted that 33% of the American people are devout on either side of the aisle -- right now, 20% are also doubting the president -- and that figure is growing.....

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Republican, John McCain on the 2005 budget's lack of funding for Iraq and Afghanistan....

Quote:
But a senior administration official who works with the services on budgeting issues played down this concern after yesterday's hearing, noting that the Pentagon has considerable experience bridging its cash flows while waiting for supplemental funding.

The official rejected suggestions that the administration is trying to put off the supplemental to avoid another case of sticker shock just before the election.

Joshua B. Bolten, director of the Office of Management and Budget, "has already said publicly that the supplemental will probably be in the range of $50 billion," the official said. "We have enough money in the budget now to get through the fiscal year. We didn't see how the congressional schedule would permit consideration of a supplemental late in the year."

In questioning the chiefs, Sen. Jack Reed (D-R.I.) called the administration's supplemental strategy "a deceptive way to finance the operations of the military" and said: "I think it has practical ramifications also. . . . The most remarkable thing about this budget is what it leaves out, not what it includes."

Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) said the administration's decision to fund a temporary increase of 30,000 Army troops through the supplemental "deceives the American people about the size of the deficit."
Washington Post article

Okay, he didn't say "the president's full of shit."

He only said that his budget is deceptive.

.......another Republican not willing to go over Credibility Falls with George W. Bush.....

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More from principled Republican leader, John McCain....

McCain defends Kerry, New York Times

I guess this guy Sampley who sought out, bought, and disseminated the now famous Hanoi Jane - John Kerry cross-legged picture is a total scumbag, according to McCain.....

(excerpt)
Quote:
Mr. McCain, an Arizona Republican, called the man, Ted Sampley, "one of the most despicable people I have ever had the misfortune to encounter."
...and...

Quote:
"I consider him a fraud who preys on the hopes of family members of missing servicemen for his own profit. He is dishonorable, an enemy of the truth, and despite his claims, he does not speak for or represent the views of all but a few veterans."
Harsh!

.......psst.......Senator McCain........we're trying to win an election here.............

If only some of McCain's credibility could rub off on Bush -- not likely when McCain keeps referring to Bush's budget as "deceptive......"

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See what happens when your administration becomes known for playing around with facts?

excerpt:
Quote:
CBS said yesterday it has stopped airing a federally funded advertisement, placed by the Bush administration to promote the new Medicare prescription drug law, out of concern the content may be too political.

The network's decision adds to a controversy in which the administration and congressional Democrats are battling over the wisdom of the expanded Medicare program, which Congress approved in November. It comes days after the General Accounting Office agreed, at Democrats' request, to examine whether the $9.5 million in ads, airing on network and cable television through March, constitute political propaganda, rather than neutral public education about the new law......

......"Perhaps they went beyond educating people about the changes in Medicare," Franks said. "Whether it's about toothpaste or advertising about Medicare, the ads have to live up to our standards . . . about accuracy."
.......yeah, perhaps......doesn't it suck when people just start assuming that you're screwing around with facts, stretching the truth, or "lying for the cause"?

See what happens when you foster a culture of deceit?

Using the public's money, out of the national budget, to finance your party's election campaign? Isn't that dishonest?

full article

Is this normal?

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Isn't the president lying about the economy too?

US Trade Deficit Reaches a record $489.4 Billion

excerpt:
Quote:
WASHINGTON, Feb. 13 - The United States trade deficit soared to a record of $489.4 billion last year, according to a federal report released on Friday, raising concerns about the problems such a large gap could create.

The deficit, which is the difference between the value of foreign goods and services purchased in this country and the amount of American goods and services sold overseas, is now the largest in history.
Advertisement

As a percent of gross domestic product, the goods and services deficit increased to 4.5 percent from 4 percent in 2002.

Despite a variety of reactions to some of the underlying patterns in the trade report, concern about the size of the deficit was almost uniform.

"This is not only a record, it is a record by a great deal," said Richard J. DeKaser, an economist at National City Corporation.
I like this one too.......

Quote:
Robert E. Scott, director for trade studies at the Economic Policy Institute, said the human consequences of the rising trade deficit could be seen in the reconfiguration of the job market.

"As a consequence of the trade deficit," Mr. Scott said, "people are being pushed out of well-paying jobs with benefits in manufacturing and into the poor-paying service jobs, often with no benefits."
Can we believe the President when he says that the fate of American workers is a high priority for him and his team (wink, wink)? Can we believe him when he backpedals from his own economic report which recommends outsourcing as "good for the economy?"

Can we believe a word he says?

Lying for the cause. Situational ethics. ".....So? .......what's the difference?

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Is there a way for me to request moving the entirety of page 35 here to the political forum? I'd love to see GZ's response to some of this.

\:\)


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I second that motion.

I'm sure if this thread had more exposure...there would be more variety in the responses.

Dave...I'm sure you would love that bunch over there! ;\)


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I third the motion.

George (if you read this thread), it's your forum so ultimately the call is up to you. I'm guessing that Jim Quinn can move it pretty easily if you ask him to...

dB

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Why is Bush still allowing polls to be conducted?

CBS News Poll

tasty excerpt:
Quote:
Most Americans believe the Bush Administration exaggerated the pre-war intelligence about Iraqi weapons (57% vs. 35%), and that Bush's self-described status as a "war President" was brought on by his own choices, not forced upon him by world events (51% vs. 40%).
"Gimme a WAR"
"Gimme a PRESIDENT"
"What's that spell?"

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Becuse the polls are still on his side!!! \:D

From that same CBS Poll:

Quote:
Yet in the eyes of many Americans exaggerating may not be the same as lying in this case: asked if the Bush Administration was telling all that it knew about weapons before the war, only 16 percent described the Administration as lying about the weapons, fewer than in January and the same number as in December.

Many Americans believe there are still weapons of mass destruction in Iraq that the U.S. hasn’t found yet. This belief that Iraq possesses weapons of mass destruction has, however, declined sharply since last April, when U.S. troops took control of Baghdad: then, 81 percent believed Iraq probably had such weapons. In November, Americans still thought Iraq has weapons of mass destruction by almost a two to one margin.

DOES IRAQ HAVE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION?

Probably does
49%

Probably doesn't
41%

However, this issue may have lost some significance: most now say it does not matter whether or not the U.S. finds weapons in Iraq. In June, most Americans said it did matter. Today, majorities of Republicans and Independents say it doesn't matter, while Democrats are evenly split on this issue.

DOES IT MATTER WHETHER THE U.S. FINDS WEAPONS IN IRAQ?

Yes, it matters
44%

No, doesn't matter
53%


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touché....

In other words, ".....So?.....what's the difference?"

The difference is believability. Bush running with a credibility gap is like Seabiscuit running on one leg......

I was watching the "Fox News Report" last Saturday, which is a panel show about news reporting, and they all agreed that "script" of the 2000 election was "Bush is dumb, Gore lies." Stories that played into the script got a lot of repeated airings, stories that didn't sunk immediately. You can imagine the balance of opinions on this Fox News network, BTW.....

They all agreed (conservatives too) that the "script" of this election is "Bush lies" or "Bush has credibility problems with voters." Hence the recent preoccupations in the press over lack of WMD evidence, budgetary fudgings, and most recently, the persistent and intense flap over his National Guard service, which they all understood as part of this credibility story.....and so do I, BTW.

If anyone doubts that the media script on Bush is any different, type "bush +credibility" into Google News and see how many thousands of hits come up (Google News tracks only online newspaper and magazine articles).

I like this year's script......

BTW, there's lots of other stuff in that poll pertinent to our recent discussions here in this thread....

for instance....
Quote:
AS A RESULT OF WAR WITH IRAQ, THE U.S. IS NOW…

Safer from terrorism, 42%
Less safe or no difference, 55%

WAS IRAQ WAR WORTH THE COSTS?

Yes, 41%
No, 50%
What's that whirring sound I hear? The behemouth Republican smoke machine?

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