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Quote:
Originally posted by popstar:
Lee, perhaps you haven't been reading my earlier posts, explaining why I post the data...to give any interested party who doesn't have easy access to Billboard the chance to see what Billboard is reporting in their Production Charts.
Yes I know... I've been following the discussion from the beginning and I remember when you started posting the charts and your stated reasons. I still don't get it.

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Again, with all the opinionated loudmouths all over the Internet spouting off about this and that, slandering each other and any format that they choose to, I believe it important to present some factual data which is not generated by biased opinions.
Well... except the points that some of us are making are:

1) it IS biased data, because there is a lot of information missing that is just as relevant, if not more so, than the software used. I'm not suggesting that it's a DigiDesign conspiracy because I really have no way of knowing whether it is or not. As the saying goes, there's no need for conspiracy when stupidity will do the job just as well. \:D And I feel that Billboard's reporting tactics are not very competent in describing the formats, that's all. Whether they are getting paid by Digi to name their products or they're just being lame, I couldn't say.

And 2) I think we all know that Pro Tools is currently more popular in studios than any other DAW, or analog tape. Anybody involved with audio who doesn't know that has been living under a rock. So why the obsession with demonstrating it? And even though it is the most popular, that doesn't necessarily invalidate the opinions of those who don't like it. Methinks thou doth protect too much.

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On your suggestion, I will consider putting on the next post a small word of caution to readers that this data only presents exactly what it presents...the recording medium used.
That might be helpful, though it still really represents only a small part of the recording medium. The converters really have more to do with the actual sound. Software interface preferences are a matter of personal taste and you can get the same results sonically out of any DAW, given the same converters, if you are only using it as the tracking/editing medium.

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Quote:
Originally posted by Lee Flier:
[QUOTE]Whether they are getting paid by Digi to name their products or they're just being lame, I couldn't say.

And 2) I think we all know that Pro Tools is currently more popular in studios than any other DAW, or analog tape. Anybody involved with audio who doesn't know that has been living under a rock. So why the obsession with demonstrating it? And even though it is the most popular, that doesn't necessarily invalidate the opinions of those who don't like it. Methinks thou doth protect too much.
Lee, I absolutely concur with you that any format being the most popular does NOT in any way, shape or form invalidate the opinions of those who don't like it. I hope that I have never given the impression in any of these posts that it would. I would also concur that the opposite is true...that the most popular format won't necessarily validate the opinions of those who do like it. (McDonald's may be one of the most consumed foods on the planet, but I'm not sure it's all that good).

And on the conspiracy issue, if I'm not mistaken, the Production Charts were started by Billboard in roughly 1996, and this was at a time when, say, ProTools was in its infancy in terms of popularity within the professional industry. Also at that time, Nuendo didn't exist (not sure about RADAR). Since the Production charts show all sorts of things (engineer's names, producers, studios, mastering, consoles, etc), I'm relatively certain that in its beginning, it wasn't meant to be any sort of Digi "ad". But I know that over the last 4 years, it is true that, for better or for worse, ProTools has become firmly entrenched in the music industry at least here in Los Angeles. That it shows up so much in the Production Chart does seem to tweak so many of the guys here, but, after all, reality is reality.

In lieu of having had the chance to A/B all the DAW's out there under strict circumstances, I am happy that one of them seems to be moving out in front of the others...not because I think it is the best sounding (I don't know the answer to that), but simply because standards that are spoken by everyone do have their advantages for what I do. It does make things one heck of a lot easier...just like the old days, when 2" tape was THE medium. I'm much more interested in dealing with the music than I am with figuring out how to convert your file format into mine.

Anyway, Saturday's almost here for the next installment of this series. We're closing in on our first six months. We can really start discussing our interpretations of the data very soon...I know you all can't wait!

Best,

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popstar, when you hit town, the lou's or wherever is on me.

also, just for the record, i think protools is a format. our previous debates over protools were weather or not it has become an industry standard. which as of now, your postings of the charts have basiclly proved it to be.
or at the very least, a consistantly popular FORMAT. the argument that it is just a program that is pcm based is week at best.

i think every project hits protools at some point
or another. maybe it is not mixed in the box, maybe it only recorded and edited a lead vox.
point is, it was there and it is not going away.

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Quote:
Originally posted by popstar:
That it shows up so much in the Production Chart does seem to tweak so many of the guys here, but, after all, reality is reality.
Well, when you first started posting it, I thought you were working for Billboard and you were just making sure the info was correct. when I sent you the corrections but they weren't posted and/or applied, then I started thinking that you may be working for greedydesign instead. I still think this is part of an endorsement or agreement between you and digi and that this corporative look of your compilation can't come out just of nowhere.


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Quote:
Originally posted by Loco:
[QUOTE]Well, when you first started posting it, I thought you were working for Billboard and you were just making sure the info was correct. when I sent you the corrections but they weren't posted and/or applied, then I started thinking that you may be working for greedydesign instead. I still think this is part of an endorsement or agreement between you and digi and that this corporative look of your compilation can't come out just of nowhere.
Loco, just for the record...I presume you are referring to your earlier post which (in edited form) reads:

Well, they (Billboard) don't list the actual thing most of the time. For "Work It" i...it doesn't mention...the tape machine used for the Instruments part... As for erykah... most of the stuff was initially recorded with Logic. Aaliyah... not 2" absolutely.

And to which I replied:

You mentioned Eryka's track being done on Logic. My guess is that at some point it was transferred into ProTools. Perhaps this was done immediately preceding the mix, in which case Billboard should have listed Logic as the medium of recording. Or perhaps it was transferred into PT once the initial sequencing (and/or some recording) had been handled in Logic...Billboard should have listed both Logic and PT. However, when Billboard called the studio(s) to confirm formats, people, etc., someone mentioned ProTools as being the recording format and I'm sure there is a reason why. I doubt that that record was mixed using Logic as a tape machine. As to Aaliyah, I'll bet the project started on 2". If it was then transferred into PT to continue recording, then Billboard should have listed both formats as the recording format. However, if it was all recorded on 2", then assembled into PT for the mix, Billboard got it right.

Either way, you can see that the inaccuracies, over a long period of time, should balance themselves out and not upset the general balance of formats that they list.

-----

Back to today:

The point being that in those cases, Logic, 2" and ProTools were all 'slighted' one time...the inaccuracies should even themselves out over time, which was why these were never 'corrected'. If you'd really like me to, I'll revise it in the next installment, but given that each format was slighted once, the result will turn out the same.

Once again, I have never, nor probably will ever, work for Digi or Billboard. Nor do I in any way, shape or form have an endorsement deal with them. Every Digi product I've ever owned has been bought from a dealer, just like every other normal person. I am a working engineer, among other things and do happen to own a ProTools rig. That's my only affiliation.

This thread started as a quest to find which formats were becoming "standards" (thanks for the reminder, Robo), in an effort to provide a truthful oasis in the sea of highly opinionated misinformation. I went into it knowing that, while Billboard really does try to get the info properly (they've called here in the appropriate cases), they are sure to make mistakes. And I have always maintained, if you find no value in the data, no problem. It's all good.

Keep up your good work, Under Construction kicks ass.

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Originally posted by Imagine:
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You're absolutely right! I personally, have no use for this information. What I find funny, is that Billboard doesn't list the kind of converters, mics, consoles, cables, word clocks, preamps, fx units, headphones, DIs, patchbay, monitors, compressors, bla, bla, bla...in conjunction with whatever DAW was used. Now, that would be informative.

I wonder if Billboard would list that information if Digi stopped paying them!!! \:D

Imagine
But they never have listed any of that info, even before Digi stuff was used to any great degree. It has always simply said 2" or SSL or Neve. The chart was simply a quick way for Billboard readers to see who worked on the hit singles, at what studios, and on what gear. SSL uses it in their promotional literature as well, do you think they're paying off Billboard too ?

Rob


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And Yamaha pays Mix Magazine to have their NS10m's featured on the console for Mix's magazine cover.
Lexicon has the same deal with Mix Magazine. They pay the magazine to show their LARC on the cover as well.

:rolleyes:

Like somebody else mentioned above, if the Billboard charts showed that Logic, Nuendo or DP was at the top, the Pro Tools bashers would be praising Billboards charts as the new holy bible of DAW usage.

:rolleyes:

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Quote:
Originally posted by popstar:
If you'd really like me to, I'll revise it in the next installment, but given that each format was slighted once, the result will turn out the same.
I just thought that it would be useful to list it as Alsihad when instead of a choice it was used because you had to. But then, you'll have to contact a lot of people trying to find out what was the case (I would say 75% of the cases, but I may be wrong). So hard to do and precise that the whole point of making it would render the results unuseable or irrelevant.

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Once again, I have never, nor probably will ever, work for Digi or Billboard. Nor do I in any way, shape or form have an endorsement deal with them. Every Digi product I've ever owned has been bought from a dealer, just like every other normal person. I am a working engineer, among other things and do happen to own a ProTools rig. That's my only affiliation.
Maybe that explains why it is about PT and not SSL or Neve or...

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Keep up your good work, Under Construction kicks ass.
Thanks! Did you hear the Leak already?


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Quote:
Originally posted by Loco:
[QUOTE]Maybe that explains why it is about PT and not SSL or Neve or...
Loco,

Well, no, it's not that because I own both of those, too. It's simply because I happen to believe that too much bullshit floats around these newsgroups every day of the week. And much of it is hatred aimed at Digidesign. Now, don't get me wrong, I've got a laundry list of complaints about them, too. But overall, even though I came up firmly in the "golden age of analog", I'm frickin' thrilled to have software that enables us to do what we do every day. To me, this is heaven.

For a long, long time, I was VERY skeptical about the sonics of ProTools, especially in the 888 days. No depth, weird tonal qualities, all this midrange and pinched, closed hi end, flat bottom. But I feel much better about the 192's. And I, like everyone else, am always up for some external convertors. And although I know I still have a LOT to learn about making it sound even better, I'm feeling like this can work for me sonically. Quite nicely, thank you.

Being one of the whining, sniveling Digi-bashers is SO played out at this point. Do these people actually make records or are they just spending time trying to let the world know that they think they've got some magic fucking fairy dust in their methodry? These losers up here complaining about DAW's not sounding like analog. Well, gee, do you think there's a chance that that's because we haven't had forty fucking years to perfect our approach to digital audio?

On the real, if you can't make a great sounding record in ProTools, Nuendo, RADAR, or anything else, you have to do one of two things...either upgrade your skills to 2.0, or shut the fuck up. If you hate the DAW lifestyle, then go make an entire album on 2" from start to finish. I guarantee, there's a real good chance that you'll be happy to get back to your ProTools HD setup.

So, the charts are there simply to see who is using what. If the data serves you, cool.

Loco, what's the Leak? I don't even know about that...

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Quote:
Originally posted by popstar:
On the real, if you can't make a great sounding record in ProTools, Nuendo, RADAR, or anything else, you have to do one of two things...either upgrade your skills to 2.0, or shut the fuck up. If you hate the DAW lifestyle, then go make an entire album on 2" from start to finish. I guarantee, there's a real good chance that you'll be happy to get back to your ProTools HD setup.
You know I'm a DAW guy. I haven't touched a tape in years.

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Loco, what's the Leak? I don't even know about that...
Memorial Weekend at SoBe. Unauthorized leak (as funny as it sounds). You'll see the video soon.


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Quote:
Originally posted by Loco:
[QUOTE]You know I'm a DAW guy. I haven't touched a tape in years.
Loco,

By the way, that rant was not directed at you. But if you've never done a full album on 2" (and only 2")...well, you just might find that enlightening. It's one thing to load up a 2" reel with 24 tracks for a couple of songs, then dump into ProTools for the rest of the work...and it's another entirely to do the whole album in 2". Believe me, it will have you running back to your HD rig so fast it will make your head spin.

Loco, you never miss a chance to put forth your "greedydesign" theory. Dude, with all due respect...as an engineer, what are you thinking? Can you imagine where we'd be had Digidesign never existed? Well, for one, you might be in the (even worse) money grabbing hands of Synclavier, who developed very excellent DAW's costing $250,000.00 a pop. (Of course, Digidesign's introduction of their Sound Tools and SampleCell apps doing much of what Synclav offered for 1/10 the price rid the world of the 250K products). Or, we might be on those thin sounding and latency riddled MOTU boxes still waiting for them to release a version of DP that's compatible with even yesterday's Mac system software. Or we might be working in Logic, reading the manual how to take your audio playback out of the Mac's headphone jack for your audio monitoring in the SSL. Oh, and let's not forget how to tweak the internal crystal of our Mac. The good Logic users are always slagging on Digi, yet they can't wait for the next revision of Digi's interface boxes. Without them, it's "Hey, can I plug my Lucid convertor right into this Mac somehow?" RADAR is really nice sounding, but, to be fair, how lame in its file management. It's intended to be the best damn recorder you've ever heard, and they might be right about that. But we engineers are not content with just having the best sounding recorder. GIVE US THE POWER! Nuendo might be nice (never tried it), but with all due respect to them, they've had ProTools to copy and learn from. Had ProTools never ever existed, do you think that the Nuendo inventors would be where they are today? Hell, it's sure a lot easier creating something when you've already watched one company do the groundbreaking work. Fairlight has been at this as long (or maybe longer) than Digi, but for whatever reason (maybe because it was priced closer to Synclav back in the day), it wasn't the company which attracted the masses.

It's very easy to sit and take potshots at the big guy on the block. But I'm damn happy to be using my Digi gear day in and day out. Fuck the Digi-bashers...they're obviously not the ones making the #1 records these days, now are they?

Memorial Day in SoBe? Still not getting it, bro...was it a leak of new Missy stuff?

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Quote:
Originally posted by popstar:
But if you've never done a full album on 2" (and only 2")...well, you just might find that enlightening. It's one thing to load up a 2" reel with 24 tracks for a couple of songs, then dump into ProTools for the rest of the work...and it's another entirely to do the whole album in 2". Believe me, it will have you running back to your HD rig so fast it will make your head spin.
Gee, I used to do recordings on nuthin but 2" all the time, and I just did a record like that a couple of months ago in fact. Didn't miss the HD rig at all, even though it was sitting right next to the console. \:\)

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Quote:
Originally posted by Lee Flier:
[QUOTE]Gee, I used to do recordings on nuthin but 2" all the time, and I just did a record like that a couple of months ago in fact. Didn't miss the HD rig at all, even though it was sitting right next to the console. \:\)
Lee, why the hell did you buy an HD rig if you're totally happy with 2"? I mean, we all made wonderful records on 2" for decades...it's not like you can't do it. So, tell the class, why did you buy an HD rig in the first place?

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I didn't buy one, I do a lot of work out of a studio that has a hybrid analog/HD setup.

Oh, and the owner bought the HD rig so he could take on all the prospective clients who called up asking "Do you have Pro Tools?" The extra business allows him to buy more analog gear. \:D

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Quote:
But they never have listed any of that info, even before Digi stuff was used to any great degree. It has always simply said 2" or SSL or Neve.
True, but even then I thought the information was inconclusive.

Quote:
The chart was simply a quick way for Billboard readers to see who worked on the hit singles, at what studios, and on what gear.
They should only include the hits, and studios. If they want to list the "gear", list the gear. What's the point in only listing the DAW? Why not specify the converters as well. Wouldn't that make more sense? Protools with Benchmark converters, Protools with HD192, DP with HD192, DP/Logic with Apogee AD8000se, etc...

Wouldn't that paint a better picture? I think it would.

If I remember correctly, in the past, Billboard would list the console and recorder used in a session. That was pretty much it. Now we have a plethora of DAWs, converters, etc... Knowing the type of converters used, would certainly help Popstar's continuing educational series. I know I'd appreciate it!

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Quote:
Originally posted by Lee Flier:
I didn't buy one, I do a lot of work out of a studio that has a hybrid analog/HD setup.

Oh, and the owner bought the HD rig so he could take on all the prospective clients who called up asking "Do you have Pro Tools?" The extra business allows him to buy more analog gear. \:D
Oh, I see, Lee, your buddy seems like the smart one. Too bad you're missing out on all that rental money, because it sure does come in handy when you're wanting even more analog gear...

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Hey pop...

You say that this thread was NOT for anything other than to educate people on current format use...
...but then you finally come out of the closet and do this major rant on how all the other DAW's suck and wouldn't be anywhere without Digi paving the way.
I guess I was right...that's all you ever intended this thread to be...a place where you and other PT users could come and gloat about the numbers Billboard is putting up, so you could feel good about your equipment choices…???
Sheeeesh...and then you wonder why some of the “pure-PT bashers” came out to play....? \:D

Oh, by the way…Steinberg was working the digital audio angle back in '92…just about the same time PT started making it's name known…and PT was shit in it's early days…I don't think anyone was out copying that. The rest of the PT story is just good marketing, which lead to increased market share, which lead to more marketing…well…you know how that goes…
…and all of a sudden, PT was the main player…
…but they are only now staring to put out something that is sounding…almost right.

Oh...if you re-read all my posts...I never came here to bash any brand...but only to discover your purpose for this thread...and now I have.
I think you Digidisciples LIKE starting shit with non-Digi users...and especially with the pure-analog tape crowd. \:\)

And just for reference...analog tape was not really under development for over forty years...it pretty much hit its peak and then just stayed there as-is until the digital 90's kicked in. The tape used back in the early 70's…is pretty much the same as it is today.

Will digital be improved over time...ABSOLUTELY! Will it sound real good one day...I'm SURE!
Will it ever sound like analog tape...I doubt it.
And please, no cliche “hiss/tape flutter” jokes... :rolleyes:
…because even with the "bad" side of analog tape...it seems that so many digital types keep striving to imitate it with their DAW's!!!

I think right now...the hybrid, analog/digital approach,…is the ticket, and my personal preference.
But, if you like staying all inside a DAW...or all analog tape...who fucking cares...as long as it makes you happy and the music sounds good.

Which brings me back to the beginning...
Billboards "format list" is bullshit.
It tells you very little, and at this point is just allowing the Digidisciples an opportunity to gloat...based on these stupid Billboard numbers that you so “innocently” are posting for “educational” purposes… ;\)


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Quote:
Originally posted by miroslav:
Hey pop...

You say that this thread was NOT for anything other than to educate people on current format use...
...but then you finally come out of the closet and do this major rant on how all the other DAW's suck and wouldn't be anywhere without Digi paving the way.
This thread is for the Billboard Production Chart listings, and, as you have illustrated in your many earlier posts here trying to slant the charts, everything that goes along with that.

These charts do accurately reflect the Billboard data. Take it or leave it as you please. If you'd like to throw your opinions in on whether or not the charts have merit, and/or whether or not you are liking the results of the charts, then be prepared to defend your position, as we all have up here.

I have said many times in the past that this thread is meant to determine which formats are truly becoming standards. It is no coincidence that I, as an active worker in the music business, would be gravitating to the system which does, by the chart's listings, seem to be easily becoming a "standard". Those who follow this thread do so for one of two reasons...a) to flame it (that's where you fit in) or b) to learn from it. I choose to do the latter.

Guys like you just love to find the "ulterior" motive of Digi users. In my case, there is no ulterior motive other than to put to rest through factual data, which formats are becoming standards. If you're not happy with the results, as Dr. Evil so delicately put it "boo-fricity-hoo".

Best,

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Quote:
Originally posted by popstar:
Those who follow this thread do so for one of two reasons...a) to flame it (that's where you fit in) or b) to learn from it. I choose to do the latter.
Hey pop, in my last post...did I hit a nerve...or just the nail on the head?
I think the latter! :p

But...if you look over most of my posts...they're peppered with icons and intended mostly to poke fun...
…they flame no one...just question motives.

But...something like this:

Quote:
Originally posted by popstar:
Loco, you never miss a chance to put forth your "greedydesign" theory. Dude, with all due respect...as an engineer, what are you thinking? Can you imagine where we'd be had Digidesign never existed? Well, for one, you might be in the (even worse) money grabbing hands of Synclavier, who developed very excellent DAW's costing $250,000.00 a pop. (Of course, Digidesign's introduction of their Sound Tools and SampleCell apps doing much of what Synclav offered for 1/10 the price rid the world of the 250K products). Or, we might be on those thin sounding and latency riddled MOTU boxes still waiting for them to release a version of DP that's compatible with even yesterday's Mac system software. Or we might be working in Logic, reading the manual how to take your audio playback out of the Mac's headphone jack for your audio monitoring in the SSL. Oh, and let's not forget how to tweak the internal crystal of our Mac. The good Logic users are always slagging on Digi, yet they can't wait for the next revision of Digi's interface boxes. Without them, it's "Hey, can I plug my Lucid convertor right into this Mac somehow?" RADAR is really nice sounding, but, to be fair, how lame in its file management. It's intended to be the best damn recorder you've ever heard, and they might be right about that. But we engineers are not content with just having the best sounding recorder. GIVE US THE POWER! Nuendo might be nice (never tried it), but with all due respect to them, they've had ProTools to copy and learn from. Had ProTools never ever existed, do you think that the Nuendo inventors would be where they are today? Hell, it's sure a lot easier creating something when you've already watched one company do the groundbreaking work. Fairlight has been at this as long (or maybe longer) than Digi, but for whatever reason (maybe because it was priced closer to Synclav back in the day), it wasn't the company which attracted the masses.
Now if that's not a bit of flaming...well, I can sure see the smoke!!! \:D

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Guys like you just love to find the "ulterior" motive of Digi users.
Sorry pop...that was nothing that I needed to find...you did a great job of laying it out for me!

OK...unless you wanna' go another set...I'll get off the court now... ;\)


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Originally posted by popstar:
Oh, I see, Lee, your buddy seems like the smart one. Too bad you're missing out on all that rental money, because it sure does come in handy when you're wanting even more analog gear...
No, I'm the smart one because I don't own a studio in the first place! ;\) Nor do I care to - I prefer to work at other people's places and let THEM worry about paying for the gear.

I just have a little project studio at home, and that's fine for what I do with it. If I need something more, I can go elsewhere.

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Originally posted by miroslav:
[QUOTE]OK...unless you wanna' go another set...I'll get off the court now... ;\)
Miro,

First off, I was not flaming Loco. He's a nice guy working on some great records. He claims to be a "reluctant" PT user, and I was just reminding him how nice it is to know that the damn software was even invented...which it is.

I also have nothing but good things to say about the guys at Steinberg. Great bunch of people.

As far as seeing the Billboard charts through biased eyes, well, that's difficult to do when all I am doing is reprinting what they have published., word for word. I have never claimed that ProTools is "the best". I have claimed that it is, for all intents and purposes, a new standard. And I have claimed that I firmly believe that you can make great records on it. I loved the sound of RADAR, I have worked for years in the 2" analog domain, I have never used Nuendo, so I can't comment on that.

No, actually, there are many others on these groups who have totally got their heads stuck in the sand. The best way to see this is to post a new thread entitled "ProTools, a New Standard" and watch the flamers come a-runnin'. Heck, for all I know, you'd be right in there with them. But the reality is, it IS a new standard, something which Radar, Nuendo and a gang of others haven't become yet. That's not biased thinking, it is reality based thinking. When many, if not most, of the most in-demand mixers out there are demanding ProTools files be submitted, when many of the mastering engineers are asking for a 24/96 HD file to be sent along with the 1/2", when the record companies are asking that files be turned in as ProTools files, well then, you know you've got something. Regardless of how you feel about ProTools, it is a new standard...

Nice chatting with you...

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*for now*

agreed, it is the standard for now.

but very good things are comin with logic/apple in the works.

i'm talkin with my good buddy eric vincent in Rog's forum about this...

most pt is fronted by logic anyhow.

pt's time is limited, mate. greedydesign wants too much fucking money and they will collapse for it.

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Net ball... ;\)


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Quote:
Originally posted by All About the Geer:
*for now*

agreed, it is the standard for now.

but very good things are comin with logic/apple in the works.

pt's time is limited, mate. greedydesign wants too much fucking money and they will collapse for it.
AATG,

Good post. You are definitely preaching to the choir here, as I am a huge fan of Apple. And a former, very happy user of Logic (I stopped using it because I prefer simply working in one format).

It will be interesting to see what comes of the Apple/Logic marriage. My question is whether they'll ever come out with a true professional solution. After all, Logic has relied on Digi's hardware to serve the high end of their market for many years. And Apple has NEVER come through for the professionals by issuing a rack mount Mac with 8 PCI slots or something like that. They have always seemed to be stuck in that "you can do it all in software" stuff which, until computers are MUCH more powerful than they are today, will not serve the professional market. And for better or for worse, Digi is quite firmly entrenched in the professional market, and that won't be easy to change.

I can easily see Apple/Logic releasing a kick ass product that is a native system. Surely you'll be able to make great records on it, and some (perhaps many) will do so. But, for the most part, the real professional market will not go for this without it being a very open system, allowing engineers, for instance, to use their clocking of choice and their convertors of choice and their plug-ins of choice. And even if Apple/Logic released the total kick ass product of all time, it's not like the professionals are going to stage a mass migration. After all, the music industry is still adjusting to the change from tape-based recording to hard drive.

And, of course, we are not even bringing up the fact that Digi is certainly at work just like Apple/Logic to bring more exciting things to that platform. The Massive Pack promotion they have going on now, offering 13 excellent plugs from GM, Sony, Waves, etc is a GREAT offer...something they need to do more often to keep people "happy" rather than have people continually slagging on the company.

But hey, since this is my business, I'll be VERY interested to see what Apple/Logic comes up with. Supposedly at the Developer's Conference in late June, they may be releasing the G5's. If so, that will most likely play some role in whatever music stuff Logic introduces.

Interesting stuff indeed. The good thing is that it will only make for better options and hopefully better products offering even better audio quality and software capabilities.

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y'all are retards... dont you know that most of the time shit floats? just look at the entertainers on the list and not the medium... its a joke, pro-fools can have the most projects :rolleyes:

and who really gives a shit what is was recorded on? like the end listener gives a damn?


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Quote:
Originally posted by alphajerk:
y'all are retards... dont you know that most of the time shit floats? just look at the entertainers on the list and not the medium... its a joke, pro-fools can have the most projects :rolleyes:

and who really gives a shit what is was recorded on? like the end listener gives a damn?
Alpha,

There you are! I knew we'd draw you into the conversation at some point...like always, you've supplied us with another of your informative, upbeat contributions! Bravo! It's good to see you around...

Miro,

I was just reading the new Billboard (boy, Henchman is sure in for a happy surprise), and one of the Pro Audio stories concerned Ed Cherney recording the Rolling Stones live. Although I always thought otherwise, it turns out that Ed must be just another talentless, loser engineer recording an over-the-hill hack band, because the whole lot of them think they can make a great recording on ProTools HD. Isn't that a kicker! Gosh, you're right again, Alpha, shit floats.

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Quote:
Originally posted by popstar:
Quote:
Originally posted by All About the Geer:
*for now*

agreed, it is the standard for now.

but very good things are comin with logic/apple in the works.

pt's time is limited, mate. greedydesign wants too much fucking money and they will collapse for it.
AATG,

Good post. You are definitely preaching to the choir here, as I am a huge fan of Apple. And a former, very happy user of Logic (I stopped using it because I prefer simply working in one format).

It will be interesting to see what comes of the Apple/Logic marriage. My question is whether they'll ever come out with a true professional solution. After all, Logic has relied on Digi's hardware to serve the high end of their market for many years. And Apple has NEVER come through for the professionals by issuing a rack mount Mac with 8 PCI slots or something like that. They have always seemed to be stuck in that "you can do it all in software" stuff which, until computers are MUCH more powerful than they are today, will not serve the professional market. And for better or for worse, Digi is quite firmly entrenched in the professional market, and that won't be easy to change.

I can easily see Apple/Logic releasing a kick ass product that is a native system. Surely you'll be able to make great records on it, and some (perhaps many) will do so. But, for the most part, the real professional market will not go for this without it being a very open system, allowing engineers, for instance, to use their clocking of choice and their convertors of choice and their plug-ins of choice. And even if Apple/Logic released the total kick ass product of all time, it's not like the professionals are going to stage a mass migration. After all, the music industry is still adjusting to the change from tape-based recording to hard drive.

And, of course, we are not even bringing up the fact that Digi is certainly at work just like Apple/Logic to bring more exciting things to that platform. The Massive Pack promotion they have going on now, offering 13 excellent plugs from GM, Sony, Waves, etc is a GREAT offer...something they need to do more often to keep people "happy" rather than have people continually slagging on the company.

But hey, since this is my business, I'll be VERY interested to see what Apple/Logic comes up with. Supposedly at the Developer's Conference in late June, they may be releasing the G5's. If so, that will most likely play some role in whatever music stuff Logic introduces.

PoPStaR
i think the uad-1 is the very tip of the iceberg.

'native', so to speak, is the way things are going to go.

the phenoomenal success of the uad-1 is high incentive for other manufactureres to come with their own card (yamaha, anyone?)

a company to come out with a 'general' dsp card would be instant bestsellers. lets say a card that can process any type of plug in, without proprieteary bullshit politics dictating what can go where (rtas, tdm)

once killer cards hits the market, pt is headed for a downward spiral. lets face it, if it were not for mix/farm cards, no one would have bought their convertors as there are so many on the market that sound better and waaayy cheaper...

only a matter of time. digi is not gonna be able to give their shit away purty soon...

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i'd like to chime in here and go on the record saying that mirislob is a:

manipulative passive agressive shit head who is lacking in real world knowledge and skills.
his only purpose here was to get into a mind fuck game with popstar.

over what?

pop star and i have had our moments, i think we got a kick out of each others bullshit. mirislob and the others on his band wagon are just a bunch of obnoxious wannabes claiming to know about engineering.

if protools never existed, none of you would either. i question any of your experience in analog recording in general, beyond your knowledge of todays daws and the shit you could hook up to it .

digidesign created a great tool for pros to use. in doing so it also created a bunch of half ass "engineers" and "producers" who know absolutey shit about anything else.

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ok, some of this may be true, but in his defense, i gotta say... you can 'get by', make a lotta bread, be successful and never even touch anything remotely analogue.

the way it is today. the digital engineer far outnumber the analogue ones. lotsa music today (dare most?), the only thing even remotely 'organic' about it is the microphone > pre > compressor, but thats where it seems to end.

(not intended to u directly) and i'm so sick of people saying 'unless you've got 2", big desk experience, well, you're basically a piece a shit that should choose another profession, like plumbing or something'

its all about the quality of final product. if u can kick ass on your daw and make it sound great, then you've got just as much respect as one who can grace a 48 track and neve pres and etc.. (well ,maybe not *the same*, but you get my drift)

most kids today learn on daw, thats all they really know. it would be like an american one day deciding to speak only in german...

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Quote:
Originally posted by Robocop:
i'd like to chime in here and go on the record saying that mirislob is a:

manipulative passive agressive shit head who is lacking in real world knowledge and skills.
his only purpose here was to get into a mind fuck game with popstar.
Well, I knew it was only a matter of time before someone from the grammar school playground dropped in with some juvenile name-calling.
Yeah…I use to get that every so often back in 8th grade…and I see that every once in awhile it pops up here on the forums…I'm sure your fellow classmates are enjoying it.

And, I don't know who is playing “mind-fuck games”…???
I get the feeling some of you have been trying very hard to turn this into nothing more than a Pro Tools lovefest thread…right from the start.
All I've done is asked why and what is all that Billboard camouflage for…but of course, those questions didn't jive with the obvious agenda that that some of you have.

Quote:
mirislob and the others on his band wagon are just a bunch of obnoxious wannabes claiming to know about engineering.
OK…so please enthrall us with your recording acumen…???
So far, the only intelligence you've demonstrated is the ability to make new words out of someone's name…
…bravo…is that the “pro” part that you're alluding to???

Quote:
if protools never existed, none of you would either. i question any of your experience in analog recording in general, beyond your knowledge of todays daws and the shit you could hook up to it.
If Pro Tools never existed…?
Well…just for the record, back in the mid-70's when I got into recording…starting with the classic 4-track rig…Pro Tools didn't exist, and neither did anything else compared to today's DAW's.
That pre-DAW equipment required you to actually know something…to posses a little more skill than just how to use a mouse.

[QUOTE]digidesign created a great tool for pros to use. in doing so it also created a bunch of half ass "engineers" and "producers" who know absolutey shit about anything else[/QUOTE.

And finally you said something that I will agree with. Many that use Pro Tools:
“ know absolutely shit about anything else”.

But then, who's fault is that…mine, and anyone else's…that got into recording BEFORE DAWs became the norm???
Hey…I can click a mouse as good as anyone else. If you've seen one DAW, you've seen them all.
And, even though I am not specifically a PT user…I was into that technology when it first arrived in a big way 10 years ago.
And included with my DAW usage, is non-linear video editing…Avid (before they bought Digi)…Media 100…etc.

So…before you jump into the thread with your “as-a-matter-o-fact-you-don't-know-shit-about-anything” comments directed at people that YOU don't really know shit about…such as myself…
…you should consider the statement you made:

“digidesign created a great tool for pros to use. in doing so it also created a bunch of half ass "engineers" and "producers" who know absolutey shit about anything else.”

…and see where you fit into it.
I agree, it takes more to become a professional than just using a product that has the word “pro” in it.

I am not the one starting the mud-slinging…
…and this being an open forum…
…when someone throws up a thread, then it's only expected that it's there for common consumption.
If some of you just want to have a private forum where you dress alike, think alike, walk and talk alike…I don't think this the place for it.

OK…now go ahead… go back out to the playground and play with the other boys and girls. I'm sure there, you will find a big audience for whom to demonstrate your sophomoric communication skills.

Oh…and sorry if my responses are “mind-fucking” you.
It's difficult for me to regress all the way back to my childhood just so I can better communicate with the likes of you.

Thanks to folks like you...
This has become just ANOTHER boring...Pro Tools...analog VS digital...Pro Tools VS the world...thread. :rolleyes:


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