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Quote:
Originally posted by 3D Audio:

There are 22 others on the CD. I've probably said more already than I should. I don't want people to read. I want them to listen. So I won't say any more.
Why stop there?
You know everyone will push and prod until it all comes out. ;\)

No matter how hard you try and avoid it...your opinion WILL influence many who listen (or not) to the ADCD…that's unavoidable.
The smart folks will understand that just by first hearing some one else's opinion, their own judgment may be influenced….and they will work that into their equation.
Of course…it may(will) trigger debates on why you, or someone else thinks this or that…
…but that too is unavoidable.
So...just tell us what you think.
(And anyone else that has heard them all.)

I skimmed your 3D Audio board, and didn't notice where/how one could order a copy of the ADCD...?
Would you mind posting that for us to-lazy-to-search-the-whole-internet types? \:D
(If that's a no-no...could you PM me with that info?)
Thanks.

Anyway...since my A/D/A box was not part of your testing (Echo's Layla24)...I don't expect to be running out and switching to something else, especially since I really like, and have no complaints about their sound...
...and they were very affordable!!!
(I have three…I needed 24 channels of A/D/A).

But I would still like to get an idea of how different all those boxes sound from one to the next…and...WHAT OTHER PEOPLE THINK... ;\) ;\) ;\)

...especially of some of the...$$$...boutique boxes VS the inexpensive ones, like the Lynx II…

…so the ADCD would be good to have.


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Johhny B say: "After all is said and done, either you like to work with a specific A-to-D and D-to-A box or you don't. "

Oh, I thought you wanted to know what the "best" was, as per the topic heading.


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Only forum leaders can delete posts, so I'll just edit this and admit that I hit "send" before I had finished typing.

Sorry.


Lynn Fuston
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Quote:
Originally posted by miroslav:
I skimmed your 3D Audio board, and didn't notice where/how one could order a copy of the ADCD...?
Would you mind posting that for us to-lazy-to-search-the-whole-internet types? \:D
(If that's a no-no...could you PM me with that info?)
Thanks.

…so the ADCD would be good to have.
I'll be adding it to the
3D WebStore very soon. You can also get the DAWSUM Sampler and other CDs there as well.


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Ted

Yes, the original question had to do with the best implementations of A-to-D and D-to-A, either in a box or on a card. I guess some people are forced to work with less than the best. I was sort of assuming most people would be working with what they believed was the best, or at least had enough info and experience to cast a vote.

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One thing I've noticed about A to D converters is that digital signal processing sounds way better on audio recorded with some of the better ones. EQing the various tracks of Lynn's CD could be lots more revealing than just listening to them flat.


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Quote:
Originally posted by 3D Audio:

Lynx II-astounding that a sound card could sound so good. For 8 channels of DA and AD under $1000, this thing is a steal.

Ah, happy to hear that!!!!
I`m setting up a PC in my studio to go with the JH-24, and had recently bought a LynxOne for my home pc. Being impressed with the LynxOne, I have my mind set up for the LynxTwo for the studio....

Amund


'We`re going to ruin a lot of records before we figure out the best way to use Pro Tools'
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Lynn

Did you test the:

MOTU 192
Digi 192
Laravee

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Johnny B:
Lynn

Did you test the:

MOTU 192


No. MOTU chose not to participate, though I asked them several times.

Digi 192

Yes.

Laravee

I assume you mean Lavry, which previously was dB Technology. Yes, we auditioned the dB Tech Gold, which was donated by Dreamhire NY. Thanks to Alan Silverman for arranging that at the last minute.

Here is the list of the ADCs auditioned, in a completely meaningless sequence.

1) Waves L2
2) Sonifex
3) Lucid 9624
4) Presonus
5) Apogee AD 16
6) Apogee Trak 2
7) Apogee PSX-100
8) Digi 001
9) Digi 888|24
10) Digi HD 192
11) Weiss
12) Prism AD2
13) Drawmer
14) dB Tech Gold
15) Alesis ADAT HD24
16) Alesis ADAT XT
17) Alesis Masterlink
18) Delta 1010
19) Tascam MX2424
20) Mytek 8X96
21) Panasonic 3800
22) iZ RADAR 192 S-Nyquist
23) iZ RADAR 96K Nyquist
24) Cranesong HEDD 192-process
25) Cranesong HEDD 192
26) Lynx II
27) Troisi
28) dCS 904
29) Manley Labs SLAM
30) Manley Labs SLAM direct


Lynn Fuston
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Here's a picture.


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Quote:
No, there is no piece that is "colorless" other than standing in directly in front of the source and hearing it with one's ears. But even then the room is coloring the sound.
I'd even go further than that and say that your ears and brain are "coloring" the sound.

That may sound obvious, but in the end everything we perceive is being filtered by experience, anatomy (and past abuse/age,) surroundings, so that there is absolutely no way that I can be sure that you and I, even when standing together directly in front of the source, are having the same experience.

So one more vote for what pleases you, since that is your only reference. Your monitoring system, as mentioned earlier, will play a large roll in the amount and type of differences you will perceive.

Just for the record I am using a PSX100. When I first got it, I liked it but wasn't bowled over. It has since gone back to Apogee for a service and I worked on my room. Everything sounds a notch better.

I am also a year older. ;\)

JMHO.


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Lynn

The absence of the MOTU and several others is a serious shortcoming. Pity.

Are these tests purely subjective, or did you do some graphs and charts taken from some precision test equipment showing different behavior? For example, the specs claim it performs thus and so over this freq. range, but our tests show this.
Here's our graph of our test results.

In addition, did you only test a single channel? From what I can gather, when you start adding many channels together, there appears to be "noise buildup" or a "cumulative impact."

Did you provide information about the chips and components in each box or card?

Lastly, I talked to a man named Nika yesterday who has an interesting perspective on this area which should be detailed in his forthcoming book. It will likewise be interesting to watch the industry experts reactions to what he has to say.

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Motu and RME I have to suspect didn't care to have their product compared to the others as they were not anticipating selling so many boxes to better informed customers...

I suspect!

The CD is totally subjective, you listen and decide what YOU like!


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Quote:
Originally posted by Johnny B:
Lastly, I talked to a man named Nika yesterday who has an interesting perspective on this area which should be detailed in his forthcoming book. It will likewise be interesting to watch the industry experts reactions to what he has to say.
"A man named Nika"...hmmmm...I wonder who could he be...???
Anyone here ever heard of this guy...??? ;\)

Here we go!!! \:D


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...forthcoming book?


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Quote:
"A man named Nika"...hmmmm...I wonder who could he be...???
Anyone here ever heard of this guy...???
Time to run for cover.


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Okay. You know who he is. Did I do something wrong by mentioning him and his forthcoming book? Maybe someone can briefly fill me in. \:\)

Although I believe there is something to be said for subjective tests (just ask any guitar player about his favorite amps), there is also something to be said for having an adequate scientific basis for comparing who has the best A-to-D and D-to-A implementation in the market.

Whatever basis you decide to choose, you are still free to vote. \:\)

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Quote:
Did I do something wrong by mentioning him and his forthcoming book? Maybe someone can briefly fill me in.
No, nothing wrong. Nika is well loved here. Do a search under his name, read a little or a lot and you'll understand soon enough.

He certainly is a sharp cookie even if I don't agree with all the bits that I understand, and there are whole chunks that I don't.


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One thing I've noticed about A to D converters is that digital signal processing sounds way better on audio recorded with some of the better ones. EQing the various tracks of Lynn's CD could be lots more revealing than just listening to them flat.
----------------------------------------------

Oooh, good point. Could be VERY revealing.

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Don't forget in your subjective listening tests to compare Apples with Apples and Oranges with Oranges.

If you are comparing 96K convertors, then listen thru something that has at least 96k DACs

If you are comparing 192K convertors, then listen thru 192k DACS

Some folks say that audio source material tracked at the higher sample rates still sounds better even when it is put down to the CD format, I think it would be better to listen at the same sample rates as the original track. \:\)

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Quote:
posted by Johnny B:
Okay. You know who he is. Did I do something wrong by mentioning him and his forthcoming book?
No.

Nika's forthcoming book on digital audio should be required reading.


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Quote:
Originally posted by Johnny B:
Lynn

The absence of the MOTU and several others is a serious shortcoming. Pity.
Agreed. I have a list of all the ADC manufacturers that didn't want to be involved. One even vehemently so, threatening me when I got their unit from another source. Can you believe that? And why would MOTU not want to be involved? Who knows.

You should understand that I never even considered trying to include all the converters out there. The initial list of possible candidates was over 100 converters. As it turned out, there were about 40 selected. Several never showed up. Some that we had on hand we simply ran out of time or had technical problems that excluded them from the testing. So, yes, it is just a small sampling of what is available out there.

The underlying theme of this CD, like the others I've done, is "Can you hear the difference?" Whether the MOTU or the Nuendo are on there or not, you will be able to discover whether you can hear the difference between a $150 soundcard and a $6000 standalone. Between an ADAT and a RADAR. Between 1990 technology and 2002 technology.

Quote:


Are these tests purely subjective, or did you do some graphs and charts taken from some precision test equipment showing different behavior? For example, the specs claim it performs thus and so over this freq. range, but our tests show this.
Here's our graph of our test results.
It is purely a listening exercise. We took graphs and plots with an Audio Precision System Two. I've been so busy they have never been compiled though. I doubt I'll have the time to organize and post them.

Quote:
In addition, did you only test a single channel? From what I can gather, when you start adding many channels together, there appears to be "noise buildup" or a "cumulative impact."
You need to get a copy and read the liner notes. All the inputs were in stereo, sourced from three different sources: RADAR, 2", and an SACD sourced from Tom Jung's DSD master. So you won't hear any accumulation factor here at all. Get the ones you like in front of you and you'll be able to tell about that.

Quote:

Did you provide information about the chips and components in each box or card?
Never even considered attempting that. That sounds like a good project for someone else. I had my hands full just listening.

Quote:

Lastly, I talked to a man named Nika yesterday who has an interesting perspective on this area which should be detailed in his forthcoming book. It will likewise be interesting to watch the industry experts reactions to what he has to say.
If you've been following the DAWSUM thread over at 3dB, you've already heard what some industry experts have to say. Nika's a smart guy. Not everybody agrees with him, but we don't get into engineering because we lack opinions, now do we?


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Quote:
Originally posted by Johnny B:
Although I believe there is something to be said for subjective tests (just ask any guitar player about his favorite amps), there is also something to be said for having an adequate scientific basis for comparing who has the best A-to-D and D-to-A implementation in the market.

Whatever basis you decide to choose, you are still free to vote. \:\)
Science is fine. Just make sure you don't forget to listen first, and then read the numbers later.


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Lynn

Do you have a link to the other thread. I'll go read it.

I know several electronic engineers who would rather see things on a scope with their eyes instead of listening with their ears. They simply trust their eyes more than their ears.

My take on this is that a balanced approach using equal parts of both is best.

Whether we like it or not, science and technology is the foundation upon which the entire audio industry rests.

That's why I think it is sort of odd for there to be an complete absence from your publication of half your findings. You said you had the results from an AP test box but you failed to include them.

That's really too bad because that is extremely useful information and really should be there. Perhaps you could post it somewhere. It could really make a difference for those making decisions on which to box or card to use and could aid the design community as well in their effort to make improvements and advance the technology. \:\)

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Lynn

I'd also like to know which company or companies gave you a hard time about not wanting you to test their stuff. Name 'em. \:\)

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Prism, AD8000...faves for A/D/A. Benchmark surpisingly good for the price for D/A.

"Nuendo" in reference to converters is only semantically correct. Steinberg HW is re-branded RME, so you're really talking about those converters. Nuendo (the SW) can be used with much, much better converters.


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Quote:
Originally posted by Johnny B:
Lynn

Do you have a link to the other thread. I'll go read it.

I know several electronic engineers who would rather see things on a scope with their eyes instead of listening with their ears. They simply trust their eyes more than their ears.

My take on this is that a balanced approach using equal parts of both is best.

Whether we like it or not, science and technology is the foundation upon which the entire audio industry rests.

That's why I think it is sort of odd for there to be an complete absence from your publication of half your findings. You said you had the results from an AP test box but you failed to include them.

That's really too bad because that is extremely useful information and really should be there. Perhaps you could post it somewhere. It could really make a difference for those making decisions on which to box or card to use and could aid the design community as well in their effort to make improvements and advance the technology. \:\)
It's called Difference Signals at the 3dB Forum.

I'm sure there are many people who would rather see it on a scope instead of listening. I just doubt they make great sounding records.


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Lynn

First thanks for the link.

Now for the return comment:

Gee, I guess those guys who make great sounding records never ever looked at a VU meter either. Maybe the board/desk makers should just eliminate them to reduce the component count and get the price more competitive because, you seem to suggest, VU meters are totally useless since you can use your ears for everything.

I apologize in advance for my smart ass tone. Sorry.

No. Any test is wholly inadequate without the graphs and charts. Sorry. You ought to just post them. That is, if you really have them.

And you did not answer the question about which companies did not want you to test them. Are you afraid to name them?

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Quote:
Originally posted by Johnny B:
No. Any test is wholly inadequate without the graphs and charts. Sorry. You ought to just post them. That is, if you really have them.
eh...if the point of the test was to find the difference in the sound of different converters, how do graphs and charts help. the test, so far as i can tell, was only about the sound. perhaps you should get off your (smart) ass, do the tests yourself, and then postt the charts and graphs for us. don't have the time to do all that work? then don't demand it of other people.

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Quote:
Originally posted by Johnny B:
I apologize in advance for my smart ass tone. Sorry.

No. Any test is wholly inadequate without the graphs and charts. Sorry. You ought to just post them. That is, if you really have them.

And you did not answer the question about which companies did not want you to test them. Are you afraid to name them?
1) (smart *** answer deleted)

2) I have them. Haven't even looked at them.

3) Afraid? No.

Willing to name them in a public forum? No, I'm not. I don't see what possible good it would do.

Are you going to not buy their converter because of their attitude? Will you think better or less of the company because of it? What possible difference would it make if you are interested in sound?

Catch me when I have time and I can tell you all the Peyton Place of drama surrounding this ADCD event. The lies, the broken promises, the demands, the challenges, the tension, the long hours. It really was like a soap opera. Unbelievable.

Anything you want to find out from the ADCD will come from listening to the ADCD. Have you ordered a copy yet? Are you interested in hearing the converters at all?

Tell you what. You order a copy and get it, listen to it and post your opinions, and then we'll talk some more.

I'm off to Tape Op.


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