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Quote:
Originally posted by blairl:
"War is never the answer. The answer is to not have any enemies."
if you do not understand this quote, it is because you are too engrossed in the zero sum game that the world currently participates.

Quote:
In our current system, people in power use their resources and intelligence to defend their position and survive. They look after their own interests shortsightedly, without taking a longer view of the impact their actions have on the greater world. Intelligent people, who should know better, sling mud, confuse issues, attack, criticize and blame others.

Many participants in our system seem to believe it's a "zero-sum game." In game theory, a "zero-sum game" is one in which someone must be defeated in order for someone to win. In other words, the winner takes all, and all other players lose. Another way to look at it is as if the "prizes" in the game are finite, and so what is gained by the winner is lost by the loser. Life is not like this; win-win solutions and compromises are possible, and usually preferable.

Our Western system is like two people in a tug of war: both sides are expending a lot of energy, but nobody is accomplishing or producing much.

The common current way of solving problems and differences is through the use of opposing forces in conflict. Force is applied to an enemy with a goal of overthrowing it by using overwhelming power in direct confrontation. This system requires two polarized "sides" which attack each other head-on.

[Synergy] is a new paradigm of the use of a variety of forces to go around the enemy and solve problems in new ways. The focus is not on vanquishing the enemy, but on building a better structure. The energy is directed toward construction rather than destruction.

maybe you could grasp this quote better?
Quote:

there
are
no
righteous
wars

-ezra pound


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This is what voters think in OZ as specified by our national broadcaster.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/poll1/vote/total.htm

cheers
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The deadline for debate on further deregulation of the airwaves is January 18. The current plan is to overturn the rule that now makes it illegal for any one company to own a TV station, a Radio station, and Newspaper in the same market.

The reason this has been illegal in the past is that one company controlling all of the media in a given market, in effect, controls the news.

This is a huge freedom of speech issue.

If more deregulation occurs we will be getting even less of the truth on the news than we are now.

If this alarms you, contact your representative and let them know that you think this issue needs more discussion.
Quote:
Of particular concern is the NAB's campaign for further deregulation of the telecommunications industry. Having successfully lobbied to eliminate rules that prohibited a network from owning two stations in the same city, broadcasters are now pushing the FCC for an end to cross-ownership rules, which are all that prevent newspapers from being absorbed by the broadcast industry. The industry is also lobbying against regulations that would guarantee open access to the Internet over broadband cable lines, raising concerns that the Internet may grow to resemble cable television, where content is controlled by a handful of interconnected firms.
Here is the link: http://www.fair.org/activism/nab-letter.html


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Quote:
Originally posted by blairl:
If the Florida recount were to have continued, GW still would have won. This was reported several months ago, but was not widely circulated for some reason. Here's some links of the results of independent recounts.

Bush Still Wins

Recount Favored Bush
Hi Blair -

These reports are from almost 2 years ago, and some of the conclusions have been retracted by the original sources. You'd be very hard-pressed to find a cite for those retractions. But I've seen them...

In fact your CNN cite includes an alternate conclusion deep in the article - wherein a complete recount of all of Florida might have returned a result favorable to Gore after all.

I did find this quote on fair.org (done verbatim here because it is directly from AP)

Quote:
The story should also have noted that some scenarios showed Gore coming out ahead. For example, a vote-by-vote review of untallied ballots by The Associated Press and seven other news organizations found Bush would have narrowly prevailed in the partial recounts sought by Gore, but that Gore would have finished ahead by the barest of margins had he pursued and gained a complete statewide recount.
It still depends who you ask.

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I'm sick of seeing Republicans and war-hawk "commentators" trying unsuccessfully to hide their grin. They just can't WAIT for the "fun" to begin, I've seen so many appear to be almost giddy when speculating about what could happen. Disgusting.

Music - check out the cover of the new issue of _Wired_ magazine: "The Death of the Music Industry". Haven't had a chance to read it yet, have a sneaking suspicion it's going to echo some things here.

BOTH: if King George does attack, it's not going to be like last time. No coalition. It's also going to NEGATIVELY impact the economy.

I think we're *right now* beginning to "feel" the adjustment in the economy from the impact of what happend on 9/11. Now isn't the time for these shenanigans... Meanwhile, North Korea....


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Oh, and can we talk about the various George W Shrub appointees, and the news coverage they've gotten? That's a great story right there.

Here's a nice left wing analysis of some of Mr Shrub's appointments and their political implications.

You wanna know my current "round-the-dinner-table" theory? The US administration is not going after Iraq. They're going after the UN.

What do you think those 6 aircraft carriers and their task forces will do when the security council returns only 2 votes in favor of a US invasion? Go fishing? Nope. They're goin' in, whether anyone agrees or not.

I guess you could say Saddam don't surf.
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ah good. I'm sure everyone here voted?

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Truths that once were held to be self-evident are
not so self-evident anymore.
Well, it's very hearthening to see there are many sensible U.S.citizens, who condemn their governments egotistical policies.
As one of the few countries where one has to register to vote, I'd advise any of you to make people registering for the next elections to create that landslide victory, so the real America can make itself heard again.
Not every mayor will be supportive of your rally though
(see Frank Zappa (auto-)biographies).

Good luck,

ISPdeRuiter


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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisgraff:
Quote:
Originally posted by blairl:
He hates the music we make. He hates the movies we make. He hates the clothes we wear (or lack of). He wants to kill us because of the things we believe in.
You're right, except what he really hates is the decline of Muslim faith/culture. The world is becoming more secular; Western society is slowly creeping into his world.

He doesn't mind that we have those things. He just minds us thrusting the stuff on his society.

Oh, that and we've kept Isreal in power for 60 years.[/QB]
You almost hit the nail on the head. "They" don't hate us, they hate our GOVERNMENT. They hate our GOVERNMENT's policies, especially in Muslim countries. If you read the London Times article on this thread, you will get a glimpse of how the world is seeing this Iraq situation, and America.

The majority of the world does not trust our president, and they are more alarmed at our loss of liberty than most US citizens are. This liberty lost since 9-11, not lost by Bin Ladin's attack, but by our own governments policies.

I am not a liberal, a conspiracy theorist, or paranoid, but we are living in strange times indeed. We are losing rights and freedoms every day, and it isn't a democrat vs republican thing, it is a big money vs the world thing.

Our president clearly represents the interests of big oil, and big money, and not the interest of the vast majority of American people. Why the American people choose to put their heads in the sand is the big question.

We may all wake up in a couple of years with sand in our ears, and barely be able to recognize the world we now live in.

Now that my friends is scary.


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Quote:

In our current system, people in power use their resources and intelligence to defend their position and survive.
Hey a.j., this is good. Where did you get it?

George


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Well - may I offer somewhat of an alternative view.

Firstly, Im not in support of a war at this point.
I consider our support for totalitarian regimes to be shameful. I see a great weakness in our failure to build goodwill amongst the good Muslim people throughout the Muslim world.

However, I do beleive that , if Saddam got da bomb he'd not be shy about sharing it with whomever might share his hatred of us. I dont beleive he was diretly involved with 9 11. But, Post 9/11, I do see an issue of self defense here. Furthermore, if you want the UN rather than a crazy lone state to deal wtih such problems, then you should agree that the failure of Saddam to adhere to agreements made post the gulf war must be dealt with effectively. Otherwise the UN is a farce and will be unable to serve any mediating role on behalf of peace in the future.

Im hoping that Bushes sabre rattling has the effect of pushing the arab world to push Saddam out. If not for his war talk the UN would have remained completely ineffective in its role in this by now. Movement of this sort was reporeted just this AM as the Saudis and other arabs are reportedly encouraging a coup in Iraq. Without demonstrating the sabre rattling this would not happen.

Even if you beleive GW is an idiot perhaps you can give folks like Condi and Powell credit for the ability to devise such a strategy.

Yes at some point the danger exists that this may end up in military action- if so, Im hopin its after the UN confirms Saddams BS. However, getting the forces in place now may be the best way to cause things to resolve in a non military mode.

I know people that died 9/11 and my nephew was a volunteer on the bucket brigade on 9/12. I dont ever want to experience that again. We are up against people that have declared their hostile intentions against us and have demonstratee their willingness to execute. If you dont think Saddam would support this in the future - I disagree.

OK - can I still post around here?


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Quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by StoneinaPond:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, what can make it all better?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Man, are you serious?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Of course I was serious! It seems that on the topics of politics and digital audio workstations that is way more complaining and name calling then there is real progress towards something better. I asked the question simply to see what the very fine minds on this forum had to say about the soultion, not just the problem.
Sorry Atticus.

My response to your question was not nice. I read your question in a manner that perhaps you did not mean.

I should have posted my reply without the exclamation.

Peace,

Yorik


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Quote:
Originally posted by gm:

As Clinton put it, "When people feel uncertain, they'd rather have someone who is strong and wrong than someone who is weak and right."
Yeah...and he sure followed that thought when he bombed the shit out of Serbia...
...strong and...real fucking...wrong!!!
Not to mention a few of his other maybe smaller...but still stupid..."military" decisions.

I know, the Serbs are just a small nation...we didn't really have to worry about pissing them off...
...but the Muslims...OH NO!!!...we have to be VERY careful we don't push them any more...there's so many of them...!!!

No...sorry...I don't buy that.

Almost all the terrorists are M-U-S-L-I-M-S.

And as much as many keep trying to say how the Muslim religion is a religion of peace...blah, blah, blah...
...if the Muslims were able to follow their "true path" to its end...then they would like to get rid of all Christians...and non-Muslims...PERIOD.

I am NOT a religious person...my ethnic/family background is Christian...but I am not a practicing Christian...or anything else for that matter.
And that is because I believe that most all religions are just a form of self induced hypnosis...and that much of the worst periods in Man's existence were and are the direct cause of...religion.

So...should we attack Iraq?

Well...if the majority of Muslims and Muslim nations are against terrorism...blah, blah, blah...
...then they should REALLY step up to the plate...take care of your madmen...stop the terrorism and animosity toward non-Muslims.

But...most of them are full of shit...they say that they "support" the US (they really just want our $$$) but at the same time they don’t want to go against other Muslims...even if they are mad terrorists.
If the Muslims are really peace loving people...then they need to be in the lead against the radical Muslims...but they are not.

So...I'm not crazy about having a war...but I really think that if we don't...we will regret it a little later down the road. Those people HATE US...and the want to see all of us dead.
That's as simple is it gets.

As far as the commercialization of the inevitable war…I just avoid watching that crap…I only check the news once in awhile to see if anything new is happening…but I don’t sit and watch the stupid 24/7 media blitz day after day…

You have the remote control…change the channel! \:D


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Quote:
Those people HATE US...and the want to see all of us dead.
Why do you think that is? If we can honestly answer that question, then perhaps we can start looking for solutions.

I await your reply.


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Quote:
Originally posted by miroslav:
Almost all the terrorists are M-U-S-L-I-M-S.
are you fucking kidding me? there are just as many C-H-R-I-S-T-I-A-N-S who are terrorists im sure. how is blowing up a disco any different than blowing up a PLANNED PARENTHOOD? [which is not JUST a place where women get abortions] or a sniper killing a doctor at his home?


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Quote:
Originally posted by gm:
Quote:

In our current system, people in power use their resources and intelligence to defend their position and survive.
Hey a.j., this is good. Where did you get it?

George
ever read Robert Anton Wilson? pick up Cosmic Trigger trilogy [or any of his books]. easy read with lots of thought provoking material. number 2 in the series is VERY weird to read right now with whats happening. it was written after Dubya Sr was in office but is almost like he is talking about the current regime.

you can also search 'Robert Anton Wilson' and 'zero sum' on the web and find a lot of information dealing with the current problems in the way the world currently functions. all based on what RAW calls Synergy or non-zero sum actions benefiting human existance.

funny chapter in Cosmic Trigger 2 is the chapter called 'The World Game... I Become the Middle-East' where he talks about playing Bucky Fullers World Game and running the middle east in a Synergistic manner and end up "proving" the theory.


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Quote:
Originally posted by StoneinaPond:
Quote:
Those people HATE US...and the want to see all of us dead.
Why do you think that is? If we can honestly answer that question, then perhaps we can start looking for solutions.

I await your reply.
I think you are already implying that it is OUR fault somehow...that WE have to figure out whay they hate us. I've heard this reverse-psychology argument enough times already...and I don't buy that bullshit.

That's like saying...

"Well Miss...we know you were assaulted and raped...but did you ever stop and ask why the rapist assaulted you in the first place?"

DUH!!!

You know, I don't give a shit about trying to reason/understand why madmenare terrorizing us...it is because they are madmen...religious fanatics, driven by a warped interpretation of a religion.

But still ...the Muslim religion...right at it's core...would if it could...have nothing but a Muslim world…it’s all there in the writings.

I know that there are Muslims who would/could live peacefully with the rest of us non-Muslims...and who would not try and interpret their religion in such an extreme way. They need to be the lead against terrorism...and not just with words, but with actions.

And then the US might no longer see a need to step in and take action.


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I know that the powers that be are trying to turn this into another "good vs. evil," or a Neo Judeo-Christian Crusade. Pleeeeeaaase don't let them brainwash you. Keep your eyes on the ball, this is about money and power.

For the record, I have no problem with going to war to protect US interests abroad. Whether it be oil, or otherwise. My problem is with politicians trading in hate and fear to incite the populace to war.

I'd like to think that we (U.S. citizens) know and value our ideals and interests enough to fight for them. I don't think we need some dirtbag-fear-mongering-politico telling us that it's about something as base and stupid as "good vs. evil."

p.s. If you follow Barrett's mention of Robert Anton Wilson to the source, you will understand my avatar.


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Quote:
Originally posted by alphajerk:
Quote:
Originally posted by miroslav:
Almost all the terrorists are M-U-S-L-I-M-S.
are you fucking kidding me? there are just as many C-H-R-I-S-T-I-A-N-S who are terrorists im sure. how is blowing up a disco any different than blowing up a PLANNED PARENTHOOD? [which is not JUST a place where women get abortions] or a sniper killing a doctor at his home?
alpha...you are now throwing other issues into the mix.

I agree that the Christians who are targeting abortion clinics are also terrorists. That's why I stated that most all religions have a very negative side to them.

But it is my understanding that in this thread we were specifically discussing the war with Iraq, and the Muslim-based acts of terrorism against the US and others.

We can discuss abortion clinics in another thread so as not to have to many unrelated issues floating all in the same place…cuz’ it gets a bit crazy trying to follow a thread with multiple personalities… \:D

So...from the original focus of this thread...I stand by my statement...almost all the terrorists are M-U-S-L-I-M-S.


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Quote:
I think you are already implying that it is OUR fault somehow...that WE have to figure out whay they hate us. I've heard this reverse-psychology argument enough times already...and I don;t buy that bullshit.
You are not answering the question. You are merely extrapolating how you think I might answer the question. I didn't make the original statement. So I ask you again, why do you think they hate us? Because they are madmen? Is that your answer?


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Quote:
Originally posted by alphajerk:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by blairl:
"War is never the answer. The answer is to not have any enemies."
if you do not understand this quote, it is because you are too engrossed in the zero sum game that the world currently participates.

Quote:
In our current system, people in power use their resources and intelligence to defend their position and survive. They look after their own interests shortsightedly, without taking a longer view of the impact their actions have on the greater world. Intelligent people, who should know better, sling mud, confuse issues, attack, criticize and blame others.

Many participants in our system seem to believe it's a "zero-sum game." In game theory, a "zero-sum game" is one in which someone must be defeated in order for someone to win. In other words, the winner takes all, and all other players lose. Another way to look at it is as if the "prizes" in the game are finite, and so what is gained by the winner is lost by the loser. Life is not like this; win-win solutions and compromises are possible, and usually preferable.

Our Western system is like two people in a tug of war: both sides are expending a lot of energy, but nobody is accomplishing or producing much.

The common current way of solving problems and differences is through the use of opposing forces in conflict. Force is applied to an enemy with a goal of overthrowing it by using overwhelming power in direct confrontation. This system requires two polarized "sides" which attack each other head-on.

[Synergy] is a new paradigm of the use of a variety of forces to go around the enemy and solve problems in new ways. The focus is not on vanquishing the enemy, but on building a better structure. The energy is directed toward construction rather than destruction.


This is a great model to live by and I try to do it everyday in my personal and business relationships. It coincides in a lot of ways with one of my favorite books, "The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People". I personally try to avoid the "zero sum game" mentioned here.

In order for this model to work perfectly, people on both sides of the coin have to abide by these principles. Unfortunately a win win situation isn't always going to happen because sometimes one or more persons in the process don't want the other person to win. In the end, if someone still wants to be my enemy, they will be my enemy despite my best efforts.

There is also the issue of "absolutes" in life. Any human being with any kind of ideals has absolutes that are not up for negotiation. You can't nor should you appease everyone that crosses your path. You can't get me to do or say certain things because I have absolutes that I'm not willing to compromise. As an extreme example, you can't negotiate me into murdering someone in cold blood, I won't do it. This is an absolute in my life. Whether it's something as simple as not giving into someone's ideas in audio production because the results would be unacceptable, or whether it's something more complex like defense of freedom, everyone has an absolute in their life where there is no room for compromise, where there is no room for appeasement. Even the most open minded people have a limit. What that absolute is varies from person to person.

Taking these things into consideration I don't think it's always possible to control who decides to be our enemy.

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Quote:
Originally posted by cram:

For the record, I have no problem with going to war to protect US interests abroad. Whether it be oil, or otherwise. My problem is with politicians trading in hate and fear to incite the populace to war.
Hmmm..."hate and fear to incite the populace to war"...hmmmmm.

Well...I hate to say it...but then maybe some people just don't want to face things head on...and they are waitng to see some more "9/11's" happen before it hits them and they realixe that someone out there hates us and is trying to create fear in our society with acts of terrorism.

We are too quick to forget in this country...we just want to get back to our lifestyles...to our business.

Maybe if we just look the other way...the bad madmen will disappear on their own.

Not about evil???

What do you call those Muslim fanatics that are willing to kill themselves as long as they can kill a lot of us non-Muslims...

...good?

No...THEY are evil...and we are good.
I know that's a bit too simplified...but sometimes that's as simple as it needs to get in order to have a sense of direction...otherwise, while you are trying to rationalize why some madman is out to kill you...
...he's just doing it...and then you are dead!

Yes…it is about money and power.
They want to take it away from us…but they are still trying to do it behind the veil of the Muslim religion…that’s pretty plain and obvious.

I say again…IF the majority of Muslims claim that theirs I really a peaceful religion and that they do not support the acts of terrorism…well then…they need to take the lead in stopping it.

But in stead, while claiming “peaceful” intentions…they are also supporting the terrorists…some directly…and most others indirectly.


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I'm saying that reducing it to a "good vs. evil" level allows you to turn your brain off.


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Quote:
That's like saying...

"Well Miss...we know you were assaulted and raped...but did you ever stop and ask why the rapist assaulted you in the first place?"
Obviously, that would not be my first statement to, or thought concerning a rape victim. Rape is a horrific crime.

But you know what? As the victim you will at some point ask yourself, why me?

The answer you come up with will be determined in some fashion by your beliefs about life and existence in general. So you might conclude that it was random. Evil exists and I was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Life is full of perils and I just stepped into one.

Or you might looked at it from a broader perspective and again, based on your beliefs, you might say that at some point something is returning to me that I caused to happen at some other time.

Or you could just stay angry or depressed, lashing out at life and those around you while the pain of the experience just eats away at you day after day. In fact you might want to extract vengeance for what occurred to you that day and you find the perpetrator and you injure or kill them in return.

Each of these choices has consequences.


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Quote:
Originally posted by StoneinaPond:

So I ask you again, why do you think they hate us? Because they are madmen? Is that your answer?
I answered it very clearly..but you don't like my answer so you are going to just keep asking until I give you something you can pick apart.

But OK...I guess you seem to think that you DO have the answer...so let's hear it?

Why do YOU think they hate us?

Huh?

Come on...give me some deep, meaningful explanation as to why religious madmen strap bombs to themselves and blow up buildings and busses...
…and kill just for the pleasure of killing as many as they can.
Without any specific target other than...kill them all.

“There is a pleasure in being mad which none but the madman can see.”

Think about that…

I don’t know who that original author is…but MY answer to your question is in there.

So let’s have your answer now.
I wish to be enlightened…maybe there is something more behind all those fanatic eyes than I’m not seeing.


miroslav - miroslavmusic.com

"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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Quote:
Originally posted by cram:
I'm saying that reducing it to a "good vs. evil" level allows you to turn your brain off.[
Oh...well I think mine went off back in '69...or was it '73...

...can't remember.

I've been flying on impulse power ever since. :p


miroslav - miroslavmusic.com

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Quote:
Originally posted by StoneinaPond:

But you know what? As the victim you will at some point ask yourself, why me?
You are right...

Why me?

Quote:
Or you could just stay angry or depressed, lashing out at life and those around you while the pain of the experience just eats away at you day after day. In fact you might want to extract vengeance for what occurred to you that day and you find the perpetrator and you injure or kill them in return.
Is there something more you wish to tell us...something that you are holding back?

As for me...
There's no anger...no depression...nothing is eating away at me...no feelings of vengance.

But...
You come and throw stones in my pond...and there will be some rippples coming back your way...otherwise you'll think I'm just a patsy...a weakling...

...and then tomorrow you might be back to throw some more stones in my pond.


miroslav - miroslavmusic.com

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from cosmic trigger 2:
Quote:
In England, Cockroft and Walton split the atom [a feat defined as impossible in the science of the previous century] and in California E.O. Lawrence built the first cyclotron. These two achievements, 5000 miles apart in space, began the process that would destroy Hiroshima and Nagasaki 13 years later and plunge the world into Biblical "fear and trembling" ever since.
In the same year, 1932, Standard Oil struck oil in the British protectorate of Bahrain in the Persian Gulf and all the major powers began decades of covert and overt struggle to control that region, of which the current culmination, as I write, includes George Bush Jr. owning most of the oil in Bahrain and George Bush Sr. declaring that the U.S. has a "moral" imperative to police that area. Today, American missles are raining on Iraq and Iraqi missles are bombarding Isreal. [The American missles are "good" because they only kill "bad" people; the Iraqi missles are "bad" because they kill "good" people. Understand? I am writing about the Planet of the Apes.]
if you believe this is anything more than the powers stuggling for what is theirs and protecting their interest and actually buy into a war of "good" vs "evil"... then it is time to open your eyes.

as for comments regarding the election... there was no ELECTION. king dubya was PLACED into power by the same people who control the oil, the media, and all other worldly interest and had absolutely NOTHING to do with votes that were counted, hanging, or LOST in the swamps of florida.

furthermore, i wouldnt put sole blame on the "terrorists" for 9/11 and would contemplate about how HITLER came to power and the way he did that.... otherwise as Santayana said "those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it"

Quote:
Listen. You can hear those Hoodoo Voodoo zombie drums everytime President Bush opens his mouth. Dont read his lips: he lies. Listen closely, and you'll hear the beat-beat-beat of the tom-tom as the jungle shadows fall...


alphajerk
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Well, I am just one more voice in this whirlwind of debate but I would feel left out if I didn't chime in with some specific points.

While I agree that the government has many hidden agendas and special interests, I do not agree with all of the comments that have been posted so far. I do respect all of the opinions and the right to say them but it seems to me that most of them are rather "arm chair quarterback" in nature.

It is very easy to write things in a forum and complain to your neighbor about how corrupt the government is and how if they only did this or that, everything would be better. Well, I don't believe this. There was a time that I did, but now I don't. I'm not cynical; I just have a better sense of something now. It's called reality.

I don't mean this to sound too sarcastic. I really mean that that is the difference in my views now. You can't change the past or the big political machine that is in motion. You can complain about it or perhaps try to tweak it by pushing it in the right direction but you can't change its nature (like the Scorpion and the Frog). Short of a revolution, this is our system. I wish that we could "do the right thing" and everything would be better, but that's not how reality works. You have to try and "do the right thing" while dealing with the hidden agendas and special interests. No matter how "good" or "right" the President could be, there are other parties involved.

We not only have to contend with others inside the government but also the big machine of big business as well as other governments. You are never going to change everyone because everyone has there own agenda and it is not yours. That is what politics is. It is compromise and by its very nature we cannot always "do the right thing."

Please consider this. You can drive as cautiously and peacefully as you like down the road but people are going to die in auto accidents because not everyone shares your view about what is cautious and peaceful.

While I agree that we have created an environment that is coming back to haunt us, we cannot turn our backs on it now. We have to try and change things for the better but also realize that not everyone is going to play nice. People like Saddam want power and cannot be trusted. Even if we fight a war for some of the wrong reasons, we also fight it for some of the right reasons. Most complex systems are like this.

I'm not condoning war. My hope is always that it can be avoided, but sometimes it cannot and to make some of the comments that I have read implying that the Republicans can't wait for war sounds like "arm chair quarterbacking" again. I don't think that any President wants to send innocent men and women to there deaths.

Stop for just a minute and consider what that would be like if it were your decision to make. Don't just say, "Well, I wouldn't go to war." That's ignorant. Sometimes war comes to you or you must fight to preserve a peaceful future. A leader that does not consider these scenarios is a leader doomed to failure.

We live in a World Climate now and we can't just turn our backs and say, "Play nice." Even if we are part of the problem, there are times that demand action and this may be one of them.

People forget. They forget the devastation and death from 911. We have all gone back to our regular lives now. You are not going to make that go away by saying "sorry for our mistakes in the past, let's be friends now."

I'm not saying that we are always right. In fact, I'm rather Liberal by nature (and I didn’t vote for Bush) but the reasons don't matter anymore. You can't reverse these things overnight. Do we need change? Yes. In the midst of it, we need survival.

The war in the Middle East goes on and on because that is all they know. We have to try and make them know something else but we have to be prepared for people who seek our destruction. With great power comes great responsibility (I am sure that most of you know that this quote is much older than the recent Spiderman movie). The United States may not completely understand this idea but Saddam and others like him have no concept of its meaning. I do believe that if he had the means, he would deliver an atomic warhead here. Turn your back on that.

I have just one last point to make. Some people in this forum have pointed out that we went to war in the Gulf to protect our oil interests. While this probably is indeed part of the reason, what is wrong with that? It is a system that we setup and pay for. We didn't try and take over Kuwait for our own. If you examine the history, you will discover that Iraq was basically bankrupt and their move into Kuwait gives new meaning to the term “hostile takeover.” It is all about money for them as well, but they create their market through brute force alone. Do we turn our backs on that? What type of world will we have if that goes unchecked?

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unfortunately... this "reality" is not the best reality [kinda like microsoft and digidesign], and comments saying "i wouldnt go to war" isnt arm-chair quarterbacking... especially if reasons beyond this "reality" were sought out.

they are selling this war to the public... and apparently 88% are buying it. im not.

there are other "substances" that could relegate the middle east to just a bunch of people sitting on black sludge instead of black gold. the problem is that because this "reality" has gone the direction it has, no one wants to consider the alternatives.

as for saddam sending nuclear warheads here... that is a HUGE stretch of paranoia. just like Russia never pressed the "button" i think most countries are THAT stupid either. one nuclear warhead in america would do little damage compared to the outright assault that would happen to whatever country lofted that missle here. just look at what america did to afghanistan with REGULAR bombs.

as for "defending" america... i think better relations with the world would do more good than any homeland security or overseas war could ever accomplish. the problem again is the zero sum game that is currently being played. its just NOT an option right now.

so what happened to the 60's? all those people so against vietnam... so against "the man" became the man and have actually managed to make things worse.

its time for humanity to "wake up". in a famous story, the Buddha was asked, "Are you God?"; "No," he replied; "Are you a Saint?"; "No."; "Then what are you?"; "I am awake."


alphajerk
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