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Quote:
Originally posted by Nika:
...I'd love to see the test done on an analog console...

Nika.
Yea. I bet you wouldn't see .01 dB summing errors on an analog console. And you certainly wouldn't see .01 dB discrepancies on an analog machine.

Signed,

Someone who has aligned lots of analog machines.....


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Quote:
Originally posted by PeeTee:
Quote:
Originally posted by Rog:
Does PT really have a pan law of 0 which cannot be changed?
It's -2.5dBFS at centre.
Shouldn't it be -3dBFS?


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Quote:
Originally posted by 3D Audio:
Quote:
Originally posted by Nika:
...I'd love to see the test done on an analog console...

Nika.
Yea. I bet you wouldn't see .01 dB summing errors on an analog console. And you certainly wouldn't see .01 dB discrepancies on an analog machine.

Signed,

Someone who has aligned lots of analog machines.....
So, wait...you are saying that you can run a signal in and out of 8 or so cascaded busses or aux send/returns on an Analog console and get an output that is within a couple thousandths of a dB of what you put into it? It boggles the mind - maybe I misunderstood.


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Quote:
Originally posted by = stevepow =:
Quote:
Originally posted by 3D Audio:
Quote:
Originally posted by Nika:
...I'd love to see the test done on an analog console...

Nika.
Yea. I bet you wouldn't see .01 dB summing errors on an analog console. And you certainly wouldn't see .01 dB discrepancies on an analog machine.

Signed,

Someone who has aligned lots of analog machines.....
So, wait...you are saying that you can run a signal in and out of 8 or so cascaded busses or aux send/returns on an Analog console and get an output that is within a couple thousandths of a dB of what you put into it? It boggles the mind - maybe I misunderstood.
I think I left off the emoticon. What's that typographical symbol that means "yea right!"

I dare say anyone running a signal through an analog console, say 16 faders in a row (boost, cut, boost, cut, etc.), would find it difficult to calibrate to within .01 dB, much less .001 dB. And I'm doubt the noise floor at the end would be the same as at the beginning as well.


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Quote:
Originally posted by Henchman:
Quote:
Originally posted by PeeTee:
Quote:
Originally posted by Rog:
Does PT really have a pan law of 0 which cannot be changed?
It's -2.5dBFS at centre.
Shouldn't it be -3dBFS?
Absolutely. Without a shadow of a doubt for the stereo mix case.

Hey, who said they were perfect?

George


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Man, for a minute there, I thought I had been wrong all these years. Whew!!


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Quote:
Originally posted by gm:
Quote:
Originally posted by Henchman:
Quote:
Originally posted by PeeTee:
quote:
Originally posted by Rog:
Does PT really have a pan law of 0 which cannot be changed?
It's -2.5dBFS at centre.
Shouldn't it be -3dBFS?
Absolutely. Without a shadow of a doubt for the stereo mix case.

Hey, who said they were perfect?

George

Does this explain why a stereo track in PT ( eg drum overheads ) sounds more mono than the same track dragged into two mono tracks which are then routed to the same two channels as before on the ( hardware ) desk? ( If this seems a little unclear, imagine stereo overheads track routed in PT to outputs 1/2, coming up channels 1 & 2 on desk, which are hard panned. Overheads than dragged to two mono tracks, routed in PT, first track to output 1, second to output 2, then brought up respective channels on desk.)

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Quote:
Originally posted by fourk:
Does this explain why a stereo track in PT ( eg drum overheads ) sounds more mono than the same track dragged into two mono tracks which are then routed to the same two channels as before on the ( hardware ) desk? ( If this seems a little unclear, imagine stereo overheads track routed in PT to outputs 1/2, coming up channels 1 & 2 on desk, which are hard panned. Overheads than dragged to two mono tracks, routed in PT, first track to output 1, second to output 2, then brought up respective channels on desk.)
A stereo track should be just that - stereo. If the image sounds narrower then there is something serous wrong inside PT. Pan law shouldn't affect stereo tracks at all (as long as you leave the stereo pan alone)

It should be easy to test though ... just do a mix of some stuff with hard left and right material in it or use something like Eleanor Rigby which contains hard-panned tracks. Do the two mixes to an external recorder, compare and contrast.


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Good advice I tell ya! Good advice.

And that's all I gotta say about that.


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Quote:
Originally posted by 3D Audio:
Quote:
Originally posted by RKrizman:
[I did a test as well, which anyone can easily do for himself. I took a vocal track recorded in PT and bussed it through a series of 16 aux inputs, alternately raising and lowering the faders, with a net change of zero. I compared this with the same vocal track left at zero.

I wouldn't post them but would be interested in hearing them. And DL'ing would be faster than setting up the test myself. Send them to 3daudio@comcast.net.
]
Lynn,
I sent you those files today. I had also mailed them to Jon Atack over on the Gearslutz forum, as it was his comment to the effect that he clearly heard how a fader move in Protools had ruined a female vocal track which prompted me to check it out. I look forward to his comments and yours.

If you think this might have any universal interest EveAnna said I could upload the snippets to her site, but I don't want to trouble her with it if nobody's all that interested.
-Rick

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I'm wondering why digi made the pan law -2.5 when on pretty much everything else it's -3.


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Quote:
Originally posted by Henchman:
I'm wondering why digi made the pan law -2.5 when on pretty much everything else it's -3.
This smells funny Mark.

If the pan Law says -3 (which I assume to mean: any signal routed hard left or right is reduced -3dB when center panned...and/or any signal routed center pan is reduced by -3dB if sent to only one side of the bus - ie hard pan)

then having a "pan law" setting of -2.5dB in Pro Tools would be

a) wrong
b) easily discernable

I can't imagine it's that way...never used/use Pro Tools though, so no expert talking here.

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All of this "pan law" agita is a bunch of fucking bullshit.

1) Pan your tracks.

2) Adjust the levels so the tracks sit right in your mix.

3) Don't expect your gear to scratch your ass for you.

4) Use your gotdammed ears, you queers.

5) What the fuck is the problem here??


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Quote:
Originally posted by Curve Dominant:
All of this "pan law" agita is a bunch of fucking bullshit.

1) Pan your tracks.

2) Adjust the levels so the tracks sit right in your mix.

3) Don't expect your gear to scratch your ass for you.

4) Use your gotdammed ears, you queers.

5) What the fuck is the problem here??
There's nothing like an intemperate diatribe laced with casual homophobia to change my mind.

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Oh that's just Eric, ignore him.


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Quote:
Originally posted by Curve Dominant:
All of this "pan law" agita is a bunch of fucking bullshit.

1) Pan your tracks.

2) Adjust the levels so the tracks sit right in your mix.

3) Don't expect your gear to scratch your ass for you.

4) Use your gotdammed ears, you queers.

5) What the fuck is the problem here??
The problem is, that when you go from a stero spread to the center, if the panning law is correct, you don't have to worry about re-adjusting the levels of that particular pair. With a panning law of -2.5, your mix is fucked, becasue now, you stereo cahhnel is 1db louder than it should be. And this makes for a very bad situation, when deklivering stuff that will be summed to mono. IE, post-production, Where stuff still will get summed to mono all the time.

Also, AM Radio. You're mix will be fucked. And there are people who actually care about that stuff.

Especially a broadcaster, when their mono M+E is all fucked up because the panning law is fucked on thwe original mix.

Now, that being said, I would be a little suspicious of the -2.5 statement, especially considering it's source. Worth looking into.

Mark


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Funny, SSL have used 5dB down in the center for years.. haven't heard too many complaints about it.

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Quote:
Originally posted by Rail Jon Rogut:
Funny, SSL have used 5dB down in the center for years.. haven't heard too many complaints about it.

Rail
Interesteing. I did not know this. I was led to believe that the proper panning law used on all consoles was 3. So that when you panned from left to right, the signal would not get louder as it approached the center.


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Quote:
Originally posted by Henchman:
Now, that being said, I would be a little suspicious of the -2.5 statement, especially considering it's source. Worth looking into.

Mark
Send a 1kHz tone (mono channel) to a stereo master. Pan left then right. You'll see/measure a 2.5dB attenuation (that means less signal, in case you don't know, Henchie) when panning is dead centre.

Such a simple test, Henchie. I thought you'd be a smart enough to figure out how to do it all by your lonesome. I guess I gave you far too much credit in your engineering abilities. \:D

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Quote:
Originally posted by Henchman:
Interesteing. I did not know this. I was led to believe that the proper panning law used on all consoles was 3. So that when you panned from left to right, the signal would not get louder as it approached the center.
:rolleyes:

Somebody lend this guy a clue!!!

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Quote:
Originally posted by Henchman:
I use those green plastic scrubby pads from safeway to clean my pots.

I find the metal ones damage the Teflon coating.
But, you sure do know how to clean pots. :p

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It's not one of those tests I ever thought would be necessary. I was taught the "-3db" thing, and never bothered wasting time to see if it was true.
And didn't george say that this was supposed to be the case?


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Pan Law is important though there is no "correct" setting. Nuendo allows the user to set either 0, -3 (actually -2.5 as I found out, I think they are correcting this) and -6.


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Beg to differ. There is a correct setting for two channels (and 3, and 4, and 5 and whatever).

A signal is fed to the center 3dB down because it provides one-half-power to each speaker (voltage doubles every 6dB, power ever 3dB) thereby making a signal panned to the center between two speakers the same volume as that same signal panned to either one.

George


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I suppose that could be done with two logarithmic pots? Actually, that would be the natural tendency - with an analog console - as far as panning a signal. Watch how little I know:

If you split the signal between two pots (or a dual pot) and wire them opposite each other, then when the line is straight up, then your not completely opening either pot - so with a logarithmic pot, that could be set to be 3dB, I suppose.

I might be REALLY off, there. \:D
Just thinking out of my ass again...


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Quote:
Originally posted by soldierman adam:
I suppose that could be done with two logarithmic pots?
Adam,

Here's EXACTLY what you need: a dual pot, one element with a cosine taper, the other element with a sine taper. the closer the tapers are to the laws, the more accurately the signal "moves" with respect to rotation.

Now, most "log" pots have two breaks, are about 10% (or 20dB) at 50% rotation, and bear little resemblence to a true log taper. An accurate log pot would have at least twice that number of breaks (or 4) as would an accurate sin/cosine pot.

We build a mixer with custom-made pots once. Thought that folks would appreciate - and pay for - the 'feel' of a good pot. We couldn't have been more mistaken.

George

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Quote:
Originally posted by gm:
Beg to differ. There is a correct setting for two channels (and 3, and 4, and 5 and whatever).

For the two channel case, a signal being fed so as to come from the center is fed at approximately 3.0103dB down because it provides exactly one-half-power to each speaker (voltage doubles every 6.02059dB, power every 3.0103dB) thereby making a signal panned to the center between two speakers the same volume as that same signal panned to either one.

Multiple channels follow this as well. Amazing how many manufacturers get it wrong.

George
Whew. For a minute there I thought I was on crack, as that is exactly what I was taught.

BTW, PeeTee, instead of trying to convince us that the correct panning law is -2.5, why don't you join the mixfest on craig's forum, and show us what you've really got, as an engineer.


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Back to the original topic.

George, I know you mix on the sony. How do you find the mixes you have done (if any) entirely in Pro-Tools, compare to those done on the Sony?


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Quote:
Originally posted by gm:
Quote:
Originally posted by soldierman adam:
I suppose that could be done with two logarithmic pots?
Adam,

Here's EXACTLY what you need: a dual pot, one element with a cosine taper, the other element with a sine taper. the closer the tapers are to the laws, the more accurately the signal "moves" with respect to rotation.

Now, most "log" pots have two breaks, are about 10% (or 20dB) at 50% rotation, and bear little resemblence to a true log taper. An accurate log pot would have at least twice that number of breaks (or 4) as would an accurate sin/cosine pot.

We build a mixer with custom-made pots once. Thought that folks would appreciate - and pay for - the 'feel' of a good pot. We couldn't have been more mistaken.

George

George
Ugh. OK. I did some searches to find out the principles behind sine/cosine tapered pots. I came across nothing. Obviously, this is not in Pohlman's book and I can't find another reference.

Could you give me a brief explanation or refer me to some existing online resource? I think I could check LSU's library in the meantime...

I know that sine and cosine are 90 degrees off - but how does this represent a taper? Is it still log or what?

Have.....to.....find....out....ugh. Brain....rotting....quickly....


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Quote:
Originally posted by Rail Jon Rogut:
Funny, SSL have used 5dB down in the center for years.. haven't heard too many complaints about it.

Rail
Then you weren't listening to me, Rail, because I've always been relentlessly antagonistic about the shitty "slugged-linear" method of generating the sin/cosine curve required for a real pan pot. But then again, neither have SSL, until the debacle of the Axiom MT.

George


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