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#464863 05/12/02 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by d gauss:
unfortunately, i couldn't justify the ADAMS as having enough "bang for the buck." so my $4000 dollars ended up buying 40 pairs of auratones. talk about a wall of sound.......

-d. gauss
in mono right? \:D


alphajerk
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#464864 05/12/02 01:22 PM
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Hey Alpha, I really don't like to dissapoint you, but I prefer the rough mix over the Adams mix.

It has a better balance, the bass is better, it doesn't have that annoying reverb and it sounds more 'pure'.

I asked my wife -who has very good ears- which version she likes most, without telling her about any difference, just asked her which one she likes most, and her choice was the rough mix too.

Very nice song nonetheless


The alchemy of the masters moving molecules of air, we capture by moving particles of iron, so that the poetry of the ancients will echo into the future.
#464865 05/12/02 03:12 PM
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I thought the ADAM mix was a more full range - "contemporary sound", the second was more of a "tinny" no bass, retro sound ala Exile on Main St by the Stones or the Black Crows etc..

I bet $5 Lee & Fletcher (experts in the genre) dig the 2nd mix more!

\:D

And all this from hearing it on a mono computer speaker under my desk somewhere!

I found the production outshined the content. Good job!



Alpha got space for one song on your web hosting? I can email you one of my S4A-C rock mixes to put up here. (I am too dumb to figure out how to do it in a hurry)

\:o


Jules
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#464866 05/12/02 05:02 PM
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ugh, that reveal mix is horrible.... especially in comparision. the bass is SO MUCH better on the ADAMs.

jules, you can try and send it but i dont know if it will come through my email.


alphajerk
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#464867 05/12/02 07:31 PM
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Well NYC Drew nailed my concerns.
How long do drivers last, for critical listening purposes? And what do they cost to replace?
I can't really be looking at these (or other speakers) as the long term investment I'd like them to be, without considering that aspect of upkeep.
For that amount of cash I'd hope to be using the things in twenty years, but of course a little upkeep is inevitable.
Ted


A WOP BOP A LU BOP, A LOP BAM BOOM!

"There is nothing I regret so much as my good behavior. What demon possessed me that I behaved so well?" -Henry David Thoreau
#464868 05/12/02 08:36 PM
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hey, Julian, I will host your mix if you want.

If its to big to email, you can send it to me via MSN if you have msn.

I thought the ADAM mix killed the reveal mix. One thing I noticed (on my nasties, my radioshack phones, and a pair of optimus phones that really pronounce the midrange) was that the adam mix was very spicy in the midrange.

#464869 05/12/02 09:28 PM
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First off: Happy Mothers' Day to all to whom that appellation applies.

Gotta' say AJ I liked the first mix better myself. Maybe it was the vibe or maybe its just 'cuz I listened to it first but it seemed to have a bit more of that rock and roll magic. So there you go (that and a nickel will get us both a nice hot cup of jack squat).

After a meeting with my partners that almost descended into a brawl -- I was contending for the 35khz headlights but they wanted the 20hz caboose -- it looks like I'm going with the Blue Sky's. I'm really curious to post a mix once I get them and see how it translates to the Adams'

Cheers all!

#464870 05/13/02 01:14 AM
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So after more detail listening on my computer speaker.. I prefer the one that is NOT the "allnight mix" - is that the ADAMS mix?!

\:D

The track kinda grows on ya, don't it?


Jules
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#464871 05/13/02 02:25 AM
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Hi All -

Had the S3-As in a recent session, sitting next to the KRK E8s. No contest, however, it was "apples and oranges".

The E8s exemplify KRKs efforts to appease the guys who need the NS10 "frown" turned up real loud. We thought that the E8s were easily able to out SPL the S3s.

(We've also had the S3s next to the Gen 1031s and it was the first time I've personally ever heard the Gens sound "box-y", as in poor depth of soundstage.)

Without exception, everyone there agreed that the S3s had a superior bottom end, depth of soundstage and "air" next to the E8s.

The problem for me personally is that there are basically 2 camps -

Rock (E8s) and MOR (Genelec).

To me the A.D.A.Ms are slightly to the Rock side of centre (Canadian spelling).

Nothing compares with the S3s frequency extention (32 - 35k). This alone makes their cost a great value.

The question is -

(It appears that the guys with the Label track records are not changing, becuase they need to stay with what they know works for them.)

Do the A.D.A.M.s translate? What CDs can I purchase that you A.D.A.M. users have out there?

Thanks.

#464872 05/13/02 03:53 AM
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Following all this. I like the scared.mp3 mix better than the allnight_scared.mp3 mix.


Dan Richards
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#464873 05/13/02 05:10 AM
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the band wants more low mids than the scared.mp3 mix has. but i keep listening to the two sitting here on my reveals [this machine] and the ADAM mix bLOWs it out of the water everytime i switch between the two. its even more apparent on my ADAMs.

and whats wrong with the verb on the ADAM mix? i think its bad ass.


alphajerk
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#464874 05/13/02 06:27 AM
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Well... I agree the bass on the ADAM mix definitely blows away the old one, and some of the low end in the drums too. Very cool sounds! I like the verb, too. But there are some other things I like better about the first mix, notably the lead vocal... it sounds a little more vulnerable, less "slammin'" in the first mix which seems to fit the tune better... but that's a subjective call.

This might piss off a lot of mixing engineers but I think this is a prime example of "the best mixes happen during tracking". If you track something right, it's easy to mix. It sounds like alpha did a great job of capturing the sources and just letting the performance be what it is. Very cool.

alpha did you already have the ADAM's when you tracked this tune? That's another frequently overlooked use of monitors - you've gotta be able to hear what you just tracked, to know if it's a keeper. When I had the S2A's on loan I was, actually, having a particularly difficult time getting the right guitar sound on one tune during tracking. It was frustrating because my KRK's were lying to me and telling me the guitar was plenty bright enough when it was actually too dull and there was too much of the room in it. Once I had the ADAM's in here, I could hear that right away and changed a lot of stuff around until I got what I wanted.

It's always good to be able to hear what you're doing and trust what you hear.

--Lee

#464875 05/13/02 07:06 AM
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You took the words right out' my mouth, Lee.
More than mixes that translate, I'm concerned with being able to proceed quickly and most of all confidently when tracking.
If I can tell for sure right away what I got, after recording it, I can go on to the next thing.
To my mind mixing is a way better time to play Hamlet than tracking. I don't feel like I'm losing so much my mixing and remixing, but if I can't get the tracks down I have nothing to mix.
And mixing is a breeze if tracking goes right, especially with the kind of straight up natural stuff I'm up to most times.

Ted


A WOP BOP A LU BOP, A LOP BAM BOOM!

"There is nothing I regret so much as my good behavior. What demon possessed me that I behaved so well?" -Henry David Thoreau
#464876 05/13/02 07:08 AM
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It does seem like kind of a rock&roll crowd in hear.
Anybody using Adams doing obsessive high fidelity natural stuff like classical, acoustic, or whatever?
Ted


A WOP BOP A LU BOP, A LOP BAM BOOM!

"There is nothing I regret so much as my good behavior. What demon possessed me that I behaved so well?" -Henry David Thoreau
#464877 05/13/02 08:06 AM
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In the "allnight" mix, I hear some breaking up around 4:12. In the "scared" mix, I hear and experience a much smoother blend of everything in the mix.

It could be that individual instruments in the "allnight" mix sound "better" but everything doesn't necessarily have to sound better. It's suppose to be a "mix" right? Mixes have to have all sorts of flavors to blend into one nice taste.

The bass and where it sits in the mix in the "scared" version, works within the overall song.

The emotion that was there when the song was tracked seems to translate well in the "scared" mix and seems lost in the "allnight" mix. IMO, the "scared" mix is much more "musical" overall.

Nice work, BTW, Alpha.


Dan Richards
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#464878 05/13/02 08:13 AM
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lee, no i didnt have the ADAMs when i tracked this... but i did have a 102degree temperature. this was one of my most surreal sessions to date [not counting my many drug enduced recordings, as if this wasnt ;\) ] the flu medicine i was one basically made me feel like i was tripping. we [the band and i] were out the previous night [at their show] drinking and i was already sick at that point. so hungover, sick, and my head floating 5 feet above me, we did this recording [and 3 other songs] and they had to jet out of town that night.

i dont remember tracking the vox. i was basically trying not to pass out by this point.

i cant say the sounds i got were the best sounds on my part nor did i take much time at all setting them up [ive tracked way too many rock bands to think much about it anymore... i pretty much know what i want and where to stick it \:D ]

obviously in this recording you can hear the bass guitar full of static, from his cable or the jack inside the bass... we didnt bother to fix it. one of the guitars also has static in the line. but we kinda felt it was cool having it in there. i still think its really cool for it to be in the song.

one of the guitarists amp only had 2 working speakers out of 4, the other two were stuffed with foam so they wouldnt move but kept the load on the amp [maybe, i wonder how much that resistance played into it]

the kick drum is NOT the sound i wanted, but too sick to bother that day.... i would of put a resonator head on his kick and mic'd it with my U195 instead of the D112 shoved against the beater head.... i would of rather had an RE20 that day. i wont even bother to mention the state [poor mans touring] of the heads on the drums.

i think its all just character anyways. and being sick, the ADAMs wouldnt of made a damn bit of difference. but on the whole, tracking now i really rely on the monitors when setting up sounds. especially when im doing a genre thats not rock and im out of my element.

but i've got a whole hour invested in the mix of this song now making tweaks here and there from peoples comments. but having that rough mix for a while listening to it, i basically knew what i didnt like about that mix and did a new mix with all those thoughts in mind. for the most part though due to the session its pretty straight up anyways.

so the vox huh? that was one of the one things that i did battle with during the mix and tweakings. i ended up going the route of really bringing him up in the mix, some people seem to hate his singing but i REALLY like his singing. and i like the lyrics. i wanted that to be a main focal point of the track. that and the bass.

i think i have 5 mix variations of this song now t0 choose from [6 including the original]


alphajerk
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"if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson
#464879 05/13/02 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by teller:
In the "allnight" mix, I hear some breaking up around 4:12. In the "scared" mix, I hear and experience a much smoother blend of everything in the mix.

i dont hear it breaking up in the version i have on the puter here now, but i know what you are talking about. i ended up pulling back on the mix buss to "fix" that in my final version... i was hitting it a bit hard for a couple of the prints.


It could be that individual instruments in the "allnight" mix sound "better" but everything doesn't necessarily have to sound better. It's suppose to be a "mix" right? Mixes have to have all sorts of flavors to blend into one nice taste.

The bass and where it sits in the mix in the "scared" version, works within the overall song.


no, i think the MIX sounds better. as a WHOLE, i like the ADAM mix better. as i replied above, i really dig the new bass sound, its just so liquidy and full. i think he plays some things that totally get lost in the other mix that im very glad were brought out. the other version has that low ride note very full and you lose a lot of the other stuff he does, which i liked. kinda noel reddingish.

The emotion that was there when the song was tracked seems to translate well in the "scared" mix and seems lost in the "allnight" mix.

i think now the emotion is even stronger. different strokes for different folks i suppose. but i think you will notice, and to further show that clock really isnt going to be able to tell much about the ADAMs [aside from me getting what i WANT with the mix] is that all the changes i made, were done for my own subjective opinions regarding how it should sound and not actually a function of the monitors in question. what it DOES prove, is im VERY happy with my final mix of it... i really enjoy listening to it and the monitors allowed me to quickly and easily attain the sounds *I* was looking for.

Nice work, BTW, Alpha.

thanks man.


alphajerk
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"if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson
#464880 05/13/02 08:57 AM
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Alpha, were there elements of the music that came out for you monitoring on the ADAMs that you didn't catch or couldn't hear on the Reveals?


Dan Richards
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#464881 05/13/02 10:04 AM
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elements of the old mix i didnt hear? yeah, the whole bass end.... really the bass guitar. the the low mids [which is REALLY where the reveals are a shitty speaker, they have a natural resonance there that fucks with my mixes on them] the reveal mix doesnt translate as well to other systems either. it sounds completely different depending on what system. the ADAM mix sounds similar on different systems. thats where the real beauty lies with the speakers.

i mean, you can like my mix or you can not like my mix, thats personal taste. but thats up to you and what you are working on anyways. before when i used the reveals as my nearfields, i was always nervous listening back on various systems. now im not.


alphajerk
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"if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson
#464882 05/13/02 10:58 AM
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Oh, this isn't about me not liking a mix. I checked in this thread because I've been interested in the ADAM's. Also wanting to check out the Blue Sky 2.1's.

I use a few monitoring systems including Tannoy PBM 6.5 II's, Michael Green Studio 5's and a 5.1 system w/ MartinLogan and Conrad Johnson.


Dan Richards
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#464883 05/13/02 12:30 PM
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#464884 05/13/02 01:49 PM
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Or, if you prefer something a bit mellower...

http://www.ssrstudio.com/sys-tmpl/nss-folder/publicfolder/Entangled.mp3

Sorry Clock, I don't know what your musical preferences are. You had a link in one of your original monitor posts, but the file's no longer there, and I never did get a chance to hear it.

#464885 05/13/02 03:17 PM
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"Anybody using Adams doing obsessive high fidelity natural stuff like classical, acoustic, or whatever?"

YES.

A classical engineer client of the studio, used to haul his Dynaudio C3's in each time (even for a 1 or 2 day booking.. it was a real PITA. He surprised the hell out of us by deciding to give up the haulage and use the ADAM S4A-C's (something he would never do with my Genelec set up!) on his last project.

We use them flat, he decided to tweak up the LF & HF somewhat to leave the mid behind a tad.. but was satisfied. More to the point AFTER the session his clients were deleriously happy with the results and he had no complaints either.

Alpha's helping me host a rock track to go up I did on mine..should be up soon (I don't feel I could ask the clasical guys, sorry)

\:\)


Jules
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#464886 05/13/02 04:00 PM
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Let me preface this by saying that this is an IMO and YMMV yada yada. Particularly I'm real backward to criticize someone's "baby" 'cause I know how personal our music is -- but this is just in the spirit of discussion and not meant as "WELL SON I THINK YOU SHOULD HAVE DONE IT THIS WAY" bullshit.

OK:

Something to keep in mind here maybe is that regardless of the monitors we're using its a real stretch, considering the acoustics of the average project studio and the length of time we spend on a competitive disc, to try and intertwine mixing and mastering simultaneously.

I think AJ's first rough really seemed to get the broad strokes right and would have been a more suitable foundation for mastering -- cold syrup and all. The ADAMs mix seemed to have everything pushed and pulled into the semblance of a mastered product but without the finesse that a gifted mastering engineer in a great room would have achieved.

Maybe I'm just a klutz, but it seems the times I reserve the mastering hat for someone else to wear and just worry about getting the vibe and the overall balance cohesive the end product seems to work much better. This same rule-of-thumb works even on a "tiny" project if I let my assistant handle the mastering.

IMO, a great mastering lab is still the Gateway to the Domain of a Sterling disc.

#464887 05/13/02 05:10 PM
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actually, a pretty good mastering guy has heard my ADAM mix and absolutely loved it. im not even sure what he would do to it.... for the most part i think its "done" [MAYBE a tad cut @ 300ish hz]

nevertheless, i can easily back off the mix buss and give him the full fidelity without buss clipping for mastering. again, the relationships of the ADAM mix is what i prefer. i think a mastering guy working from my reveal mix would have to do more "work" to get it where *I* would want it [which is basically to sound like the ADAM mix]


alphajerk
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#464888 05/13/02 05:11 PM
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Interesting song, AJ. Kinda like Zeppelin's "Rain Song" meets Sparklehorse during their Exile on Main Street.

Like others here, I find there's good aspects in both mixes. I won't tangent the topic any further with elaborate, unsolicited review, but I will say thanks for posting those--it was nice to have a listen.

I paid for my S3-A's 3 or 4 weeks ago, but I'm still waiting to get them. The feedback I've seen around here and elsewhere gives me hope that they'll address the long-standing gripes I've had with making mix decisions based on playback through 1031A's.

-dave


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#464889 05/13/02 06:46 PM
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" posted 05-13-2002 10:11 AM
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Interesting song, AJ. Kinda like Zeppelin's "Rain Song" meets Sparklehorse during their Exile on Main Street. "

Hey Dave G, did you miss the pervasive Grateful Dead influence? It's like the Grateful Dead if you snuck up on stage and cranked all the amps...
At their best, with the intense group emotional thing going.
Ted


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#464890 05/13/02 08:35 PM
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Quote:
In the "allnight" mix, I hear some breaking up around 4:12. In the "scared" mix, I hear and experience a much smoother blend of everything in the mix.

It could be that individual instruments in the "allnight" mix sound "better" but everything doesn't necessarily have to sound better. It's suppose to be a "mix" right? Mixes have to have all sorts of flavors to blend into one nice taste.

The bass and where it sits in the mix in the "scared" version, works within the overall song.

The emotion that was there when the song was tracked seems to translate well in the "scared" mix and seems lost in the "allnight" mix. IMO, the "scared" mix is much more "musical" overall.
This is exactly what I feel too.
Although I listen at computer shitty speakers.

But it's interesting to decode the files and listen to them on my westlakes in the mastering room.

In Munich I also listen to the Adams but with all respect for your enthiousasm they sound very strange to my ears.
They have a very strange boost in the highs and
the stereo image sounds very unnatural to me.

Because you guys are so enthiousastic (is this word right?) about this monitor I realy listen to the speaker and try to understand what it is all about.

I'm very sorry to say but compare a westlake LC or bbsm5 or the new earthworks monitor and you will be schocked what the difference will be.

All I see on this topic is engineers who compared dynaudio's, genelecs, krk's, pmc, tannoy's with the adams.
But also these speakers are very middle quality.
So a speaker who is boosting in frequencies can impress you more then maybe a more neutral speaker.
It's like the first finalizer. That sounds great in the beginning, but still???

You are talking about stereo detail but then please listen to westlake or the new earthworks.
It's made in the USA so also good for your economy ;\)

best,
errol


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#464891 05/13/02 08:49 PM
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ugh, westlakes are like a hole in my head. i HATE those monitors. i needed so many aspirin to listen to those on an extended basis it wasnt even funny. i was actually HAPPY when the mix sessions were done with just so i didnt have to hear them play another impulse through them.

havent used the earthworks so no comment.


alphajerk
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#464892 05/13/02 08:56 PM
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Errol, with all due respect, I don't think you've been reading the comments very carefully. The reason many of us were impressed with the ADAM's is because they DON'T hype anything. I am VERY sensitive to hyped highs. The whole thing about these speakers that interests me is not that they "sound good", but they they are HONEST. They translate to anything with no problem.

And yes, I've heard other high-end monitors. I like some of them a lot, like Questeds and Meyers, and the Meyers have as good a stereo image or better IMO than the ADAM's. But for absolute honesty even in a room that isn't acoustically perfect I have not heard anything that compares. I haven't heard Westlakes or Earthworks so I can't say.

If you don't like the sound of the ADAM's or they don't work for you, no big deal but they are definitely NOT this year's "aural exciter".

--Lee

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