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Hi,

I'm new to this thread. Could someone please explain to me what it's about? I thought it was about "what the hell Alsihad is," but that was answered on page one...

;\)

So who here is going to AES later this year in LA?


Enthusiasm powers the world.

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Quote:
Originally posted by Curve Dominant:
Ya'll wanna hear sumptin' funny?

I once accidentally posted Mixerman's real name - on his own forum!

He emailed me to say, "I'm sorry but I had to edit that post..." I was like, "You're sorry??!!! That was a boneheaded move on MY part, YOU don't have to apologize."

We had been arguing about something on a thread - ProTools, perhaps - and in the heat of the moment I wasn't thinking and accidentally addressed him by name.

Several people have emailed me over the past year, asking me who he is. They usually give me a list engineers they think he is. None of them guessed right.

I'll only say that if you do find out, you will be surprised.

E
Eric, Eric, Eric, why do you tease us so? Come on, throw us a bone....if you really know, that is.


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Quote:
Originally posted by Lee Blaske:
[QB]Mixerman wrote:

Personally, I'm in the middle of making a record right now with a band that sold 3,000,000 copies of their last record. Go figure, I can record 10-12 hours a day, AND write posts addressing inane little popstars.
I knew sooner or later Mixerman would get sloppy. The 3,000,000 copy thing clinched it. ;-)

After much triangulation, investigation and consultation with various sources (thanks to all involved), I am ready to take a preliminary guess at who Mixerman is.

My best *guess* (at the moment) is:

Mixerman is Rich Costey.
If I were Rich Costey, which I'm not, why would you want to post information like that?

This is precisely why I AM anonymous. I don't want every tweaked out lurker on the internet being able to virtually watch my every move, as you have demonstrated possible by going to Cello's website. I'm not saying you're a tweaked out lurker. But if I WAS working at Cello today, you would have known that. Knowing when I'm in the studio and what I'm working on is NOT information that I want readily available.

I realize that the likelihood is low of something truly weird happening, but I value my privacy, and this is a concern that I have. Whether you agree with that concern or can understand it, it's mine, and have a right to operate within my own phobias. My anonymity is not so I can be more of a dick. That's just partly entertainment,and partly misunderstanding of my aggressive personallity as I'm from New Jersey. You see, when we're in person, I'm usually smiling.

Also, I want my content of information to be viewed on its merits alone. Discography's are very misleading animals. Your eye will search and find only one or two examples out of a lifetimes work. And I'm not embarrassed by anything there, but I don't want to be discounted by a record that someone might not like. I want to be discounted because you don't agree with my approach or my thinking.

Also, I have no need for acquiring business through this and I network with those that seek to network with me through e-mail. It's not like my identity is such a secret that no one knows who I am. It's widely known by working engineers all over the country. It's the rest of the world I want to filter out.

So trying to post my name on the internet is going too far as far as I'm concerned. You can flame me, criticize me, even ridicule me, and I'll flame back, that's fine with me. But if you ever wanted me to stop flaming all you'd have to do is write me an e-mail asking for peace. Making serious attempts to actually post my real name is kind of like threatening my family, as far as I'm concerned.

But whatever. If you succeed in figuring it out, and posting it, there's not much I can do about it. I knew that once I told one person it was only a matter of time before that happened.

Mixerman
Got Alsihad?
http://www.prosoundweb.com/recpit

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"If I were Rich Costey, which I'm not, why would you want to post information like that?"

Damn! I'd love to know what gear was used on 'Rhubarb'

\:\(


"That's what the internet is for. Slandering others anonymously." - Banky Edwards.
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Mixerman is right,

I don't always agree with the stuff that I have read on this forum but some of it has made me question my understanding of certain issues. Sometimes I was right all along (I love it when that happens), sometimes my views turned out to be those of an inexperienced, naive junior and I learned a bit and hopefully got a little bit better. This whole "forum" idea gives us the ability to stand or fall on the merits of our views and experiences and gain massive amounts of insight from more skilled and experienced people.

Sure Fletch gets caustic, so what ? We're big boys and girls, we chose to come here. Sure Mixerman has strong views, so what ? My own opinion is much more valid to me personally.
I do not have the experience of either of these guys but that doesn't mean they are always right. Sometimes I agree, sometimes I don't, that's my absolute prerogative. More often than not, I learn something from every thread.

Finding an identity is not difficult for those that know how but trying to bring someone's personal life onto the web is absolutely out of order.

Call the guy anything you like, buy any DAW you like but going on a public witch hunt and putting personal details on the web is to admit that you cannot win the argument. Rather than try and out intellect, out experience and even out debate (that's what this actually is, heated, vitriolic debate) your oponent, you are seeking to put someone's personal details on the web to try and pillory them.
Who gives a shit who Mixerman is ? I don't. All I care about is that there are people with experience and conviction that I can interact with and learn from.

It ain't big, it ain't clever, leave it and grow up.

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Man, I hate to even think about jumping into this moshpit and potentially be seen as a member of this thread, but here goes:

To answer Ferranta, I come here to learn as much as I come to share. I have made the mistake of taking some people seriously because they come here talking sophisticated and as though they have experience and then learned that they were extremely unqualified to participate in a discussion. Likewise I have not taken some people seriously when I really should have been. I, personally, like to know who I'm talking to. I happen to know who Mixerman is, and with that in mind I have an easier time assessing how to utilize his opinions. I know examples of his mixing and have heard some of his work - if he gives an opinion on microphones I can sooner determine how his opinion relates to my own work.

Especially in light of the auspices with which he is on these threads (or at least how it was related to me) he is supposed to "represent" a typical working engineer in the heart of the big studios and the big work. With that in mind, there are a lot of differing opinions in that community, so it is difficult to know exactly how much weight to give to his opinions without knowing more about him. What albums he's mixed, his credentials, etc., will help to give ME (if noone else) a better idea of where I should be placing his opinions in respect to others I run across here. I don't think it's really possible to "represent" a group of people, especially such a diverse group. His disdain for Protools (for example) is certainly not indicative of the group as a whole.

Lee, I'm not sure it's worth the trouble. There's a lot more to talk about that is actually beneficial - in my humble opinion.

Mixerman: don't bring a dagger to a gun fight. How do you know it's a gun fight? You don't, but the nature of these threads seems to be that there are no rules. You cut someone up one time and they're bound to come back with a gun next time. I think you should have seen it coming that people were eventually going to start guessing and soon enough someone's going to nail it and the cat's going to be out of the bag.

There really are no rules, here, as has been demonstrated by the nature of several conversations in the past. Sure, George has a tendency to delete ad hominem attacks, but if it's just a pissing match he seems to stay un-involved. Since there are no rules there are no lines to cross. Yes, your sacred identity might be on one side of a line for you, but who'se to say that other people draw the same lines? Maybe making assertions that someone writes jingle music crosses someone else's line just as bad or worse? Who knows? In some fights throwing a racial epithet might cross one person's line whereas punching someone in the face crosses someone else's line and a racial epithet is well behind the line?

If you're going to get in a pissing match and start pissing in someone elses house you should FULLY EXPECT them to come back and piss in yours - but they're likely not going to do so in the toilet - they're likely to do it in your drinking water - that's the nature of the quibble. The only reason anyone is out there intending to spoil what is so sacred to you is that you have in someway spoiled something sacred to them. Once you start getting personal up here you should have been fully aware that someone was going to start pissing in your drinking water, and what better way to do so than to publicly spoil your secret? If you want to remain anonymous then I'd recommend shunning a little bit of your New Jersey upbringing, backing out of this thread, and quietly going back to just providing good, solid, sound mixing advise. Otherwise SOMEONE is going to out with it just in spite of you and in retribution. They're not fighting with knives anymore in New Jersey, and certainly not just yelling at each other anonymously.

As I said, I know your secret, have never told anyone, and never will. I've hardly conversed with you at all. I've got no retribution to have, and even if I did, I understand and respect where you draw the line. If ever necessary I'll let you know where I draw my lines and we can conduct ourselves appropriately to make sure we don't exceed each other's boundaries when having any sort of controversial exchange. I'm not feeding you this information out of any disdain for you at all, but more out of sincere 10,000' view advise. Fletcher can play that way because he doesn't have much to lose. You do - you have your sacred identity, and that's not going to be hard to crack.

Nika.

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Nika you rock,,,, now out with it! I've got some stalking to accomplish!!!


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Lemme guess. Mixerman is Steve Albini. That'd explain a lot. :rolleyes:

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Quote:
Originally posted by PeeTee:
Lemme guess. Mixerman is Steve Albini. That'd explain a lot. :rolleyes:
Naaa,

Mixerman is Jimmy Hoffa....after all these fucking years, you think the guy would send his kid a postcard....

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Mixerman is Amelia Earhart. Or maybe Elvis. Or possibly Howard Hughes.

Oh, no wait! I've got it. He's Lee Liberace. He just faked his death in order to be able to play piano, mix records, and collect diamond-encrusted candelabras without having to perform for rooms full of adoring septagenarian lady fans.


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Dan wrote:

Quote:
Mixerman is Amelia Earhart. Or maybe Elvis. Or possibly Howard Hughes.
Fletcher was off on a hydrogen blimp tangent on Nika's forum. Maybe there is some aviation tie-in. If it's one of the three above, I hope it's Howard Hughes, because I'd love to ask him a bunch of questions about the "Spruce Goose" (I'm a big WWII aviation history buff). Actually, there's even an interesting parallel here. The plane was in reality named the "H-4." "Spruce Goose" was a derogatory name that Howard Hughes's detractors came up with. Hughes hated the name. The plane wasn't even made of spruce. It was made out of birch and balsa wood.

Quote:
Oh, no wait! I've got it. He's Lee Liberace.
Hold on now, I think you might be on to something, Dan. What was Lee Liberace's biggest pop hit? It was "Cement MIXER, Putti-putti." Maybe that's where the "mixer" in Mixerman REALLY comes from (Eric, you're right - I AM surprised). I'm off to check to the RIAA site to see if it sold 3,000,000 copies.

But wait... there's the New Jersey connection. Mixerman would be a good nickname for the guy operating the cement truck for the mob's beach-side footwear department.

So much to consider.

Lee Blaske

(More substantial post to follow if I can muster the zeal [no time right now]. Maybe it's time for one of those Jerry Springer style wrap-ups where he desperately tries to put a profound spin on a show that was mainly about people trying to bust chairs over each others' heads. ;\) )

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The result?
Asphalt.


A WOP BOP A LU BOP, A LOP BAM BOOM!

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Quote:
quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Curve Dominant:
Ya'll wanna hear sumptin' funny?

I once accidentally posted Mixerman's real name - on his own forum!

He emailed me to say, "I'm sorry but I had to edit that post..." I was like, "You're sorry??!!! That was a boneheaded move on MY part, YOU don't have to apologize."

We had been arguing about something on a thread - ProTools, perhaps - and in the heat of the moment I wasn't thinking and accidentally addressed him by name.

Several people have emailed me over the past year, asking me who he is. They usually give me a list engineers they think he is. None of them guessed right.

I'll only say that if you do find out, you will be surprised.

E
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Eric, Eric, Eric, why do you tease us so? Come on, throw us a bone....if you really know, that is.

--------------------
Steve Powell
Who are you talking to, Steve?

Eric (Vincent)


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Quote:
Originally posted by Nika:
Man, I hate to even think about jumping into this moshpit and potentially be seen as a member of this thread, but here goes:

To answer Ferranta, I come here to learn as much as I come to share. I have made the mistake of taking some people seriously because they come here talking sophisticated and as though they have experience and then learned that they were extremely unqualified to participate in a discussion. Likewise I have not taken some people seriously when I really should have been. I, personally, like to know who I'm talking to. I happen to know who Mixerman is, and with that in mind I have an easier time assessing how to utilize his opinions. I know examples of his mixing and have heard some of his work - if he gives an opinion on microphones I can sooner determine how his opinion relates to my own work.

Especially in light of the auspices with which he is on these threads (or at least how it was related to me) he is supposed to "represent" a typical working engineer in the heart of the big studios and the big work. With that in mind, there are a lot of differing opinions in that community, so it is difficult to know exactly how much weight to give to his opinions without knowing more about him. What albums he's mixed, his credentials, etc., will help to give ME (if noone else) a better idea of where I should be placing his opinions in respect to others I run across here. I don't think it's really possible to "represent" a group of people, especially such a diverse group. His disdain for Protools (for example) is certainly not indicative of the group as a whole.
I do not have disdain for Alsihad. Only enjoyment, and I have expressed this enjoyment repeatedly.

Quote:
Lee, I'm not sure it's worth the trouble. There's a lot more to talk about that is actually beneficial - in my humble opinion.

Mixerman: don't bring a dagger to a gun fight. How do you know it's a gun fight? You don't, but the nature of these threads seems to be that there are no rules. You cut someone up one time and they're bound to come back with a gun next time. I think you should have seen it coming that people were eventually going to start guessing and soon enough someone's going to nail it and the cat's going to be out of the bag.
The large majority of working engineers that have a presence on the net know who I am. My name is hardly a well kept secret by any stretch of the imagination. If someone REALLY wanted to find out who I am, it's pretty fucking easy. Like I said, the moment I told one person, I assumed that it would only be a matter of time before the entire community knew. To be perfectly honest, I'm surprised there are so many people that still don't know.

If Lee is so adversely affected by my opinion that he feels it necessary to post publiclly what I have made it clear I do not want on public display, (again, not for working engineers, but for lurkers) then he has lost site of the purpose of these discussions. It's not like I'm going to be embarrassed by it. It's not like I'm beholden to him now for the threat of that. He's free to do as he wishes. I have even offerred to voluntarily tell Lee my real name. He hasn't responded. Seems he's set on figuring it out on his own and posting it up. So be it.

You claim that I'm bringing a knife to a gun fight. I disagree. You see, I'm not at a fight. I'm at a rec center. And I'll demonstrate why I say this.

Over my few years on the net I've networked with 100's of engineers across the country. It's like a big club. I've made allot of 'friends' on these boards. I also have some adversarial relationships, but I'd be foolish to think that I could post the opinions that I do and be buds with every joker with an Alsihad rig in their basement. Mainly, because my goal is not to be bland and continually express the obvious, that it's about the music not the gear.

Do people honestly think that at the end of the day, I don't realize it's about the music? Of course, I do. But recording is also a business, and many, many people lay out a considerable chunk of change in hopes of bringing in a construction worker's day pay (if they're lucky). It's not unreasonable to expect that people might want a little releif from this reality.

It's also not unreasonable for me to crtiicize a tool that I think is over-priced, and generally set up as a very expensive light bulb. The technology exists to make light bulbs that last for 1000 times longer than what we currently use. We don't complain too much about it because they're relatively cheap. But we are getting ripped off on a daily basis by light bulb comanies' general desire to sell a product on a regular basis.

This isn't a knife fight or a gun fight. It's lively discussion, and it's entertainment. You choose to run a very down to earth, technically driven discussion forum about a specific platform. I choose to approach your topic of choice with irreverance, sarcasm, satire and levity. You choose to approach it with respect, interest, and general seriousness. That makes me Ying to your Yang. Take a look at my avatar, no small coincidence there.

I spend too many hours of my day in serious discussion about audio. Like many others, I want to blow steam, and speak freely about what I see going on in this business. I also have strong opinions about the record business in general which I air occasionally. It's my opinion, not the gospel truth.

I've chosen to use satire to criticize a particular tool. I find the name that was chosen for said tool to be offensive, just as some of you find my totally made up non-sensical name of the same tool. To me, there's no small irony there. Sure, I get that it's marketing. But that's why I try to provide the other point of view. A point of view that is not tarnished by an expensive investment. A point of view that comes from evaluating the effectiveness a tool on its merits as compared with many other tools that I have no monetary investments in. I'm in a position to use whatever works best for the project, regardless of cost. That puts me in a unique position to express informed and unbiased opinions.

MOA spends serious jack on marketing their tool and its merits. I'm providing an alternative view to that. And I'm doing it in such a way that simultaeneously provides entertainment. Which brings us to the point of all this.

Anyone that finds my commentary, or my strong opinions offensive or not entertaining has the choice of challenging me or ignoring me. If you challenge me, you have instantly become a part of providing entertainment for others. Why? Because you know that your post is going to be read by many people, and you know that I'm probably going to respond (unless we've degraded beyond the point of entertainment, and we have). If you find yourself checking to see if I've responded yet, you too are being entertained as you wonder what I'm going to respond with.

So hate Alsihad all you want. Criticize it. Express your lack of enjoyment for it. Even threaten to expose my well documented identity on the net. It's fine. But don't be foolish enough to think for a moment that when you are having a public argumnent with ANYONE on the net, let alone me, that you're not doing it for entertainment.

Quote:
There really are no rules, here, as has been demonstrated by the nature of several conversations in the past. Sure, George has a tendency to delete ad hominem attacks, but if it's just a pissing match he seems to stay un-involved. Since there are no rules there are no lines to cross. Yes, your sacred identity might be on one side of a line for you, but who'se to say that other people draw the same lines? Maybe making assertions that someone writes jingle music crosses someone else's line just as bad or worse? Who knows? In some fights throwing a racial epithet might cross one person's line whereas punching someone in the face crosses someone else's line and a racial epithet is well behind the line?

If you're going to get in a pissing match and start pissing in someone elses house you should FULLY EXPECT them to come back and piss in yours - but they're likely not going to do so in the toilet - they're likely to do it in your drinking water - that's the nature of the quibble. The only reason anyone is out there intending to spoil what is so sacred to you is that you have in someway spoiled something sacred to them. Once you start getting personal up here you should have been fully aware that someone was going to start pissing in your drinking water, and what better way to do so than to publicly spoil your secret? If you want to remain anonymous then I'd recommend shunning a little bit of your New Jersey upbringing, backing out of this thread, and quietly going back to just providing good, solid, sound mixing advise.
Like I said, I'm fully aware that my responses might very well provoke someone to post my name on the net. Alphajerk did it. And now I have a pretty good relationship with him. In fact, I totally get him now, and I usually agree with what he has to say. Not because he outed me but because our posts degraded beyond the point of entertainment and we worked it out.

Lee has degraded this thread beyond the point of entertainment. I called him on it, and I was prepared to leave it at that. Your post has brought me back as you seem to think that I should somehow provide a bland advice column on the internet. Thanks, but no thanks.

Quote:
Otherwise SOMEONE is going to out with it just in spite of you and in retribution. They're not fighting with knives anymore in New Jersey, and certainly not just yelling at each other anonymously.

As I said, I know your secret, have never told anyone, and never will. I've hardly conversed with you at all. I've got no retribution to have, and even if I did, I understand and respect where you draw the line. If ever necessary I'll let you know where I draw my lines and we can conduct ourselves appropriately to make sure we don't exceed each other's boundaries when having any sort of controversial exchange. I'm not feeding you this information out of any disdain for you at all, but more out of sincere 10,000' view advise. Fletcher can play that way because he doesn't have much to lose. You do - you have your sacred identity, and that's not going to be hard to crack.

Nika.
Not to beat a dead fucking horse, but I've got nothing to lose. If I were to post my last post on the internet today I would find a new form of entertainment and I certainly wouldn't lose any business. I can't say the same for everyone, though.

You see, some people actually benefit from my anonimty. But far be it for ME of all people to name names.

That's all, folks. You know where to find me.

Mixerman
http://www.prosoundweb.com/recpit

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Mixerman, I enjoyed reading your last post. You made some good points. I think we come here for both education and entertainment. You're in a good position to provide both because, as you point out, you use a wide variety of the products we use and/or are interested in and because you enjoy a heated debate.

The difficulty I see is that some people find Oprah Winfrey and Phil Donahue entertaining while other people would rather watch Geraldo Rivera and Jerry Springer. This is a mediocre analogy, but I hope it's good enough to make my point. I don't think that mixing Oprah Winfrey and Jerry Springer would be like mixing peanut butter with chocolate, it would be more like a train wreak, IMHO.

Personally, I'd like to see a way to accommodate both tastes in entertainment at this site. I don't know exaclty how to accomplish this, but I know I wouldn't hurt if both sides are clear about what's going on and if both sides are willing to respect each other's right to get what they want. Any ideas? (This question goes out to everyone.)

Fortunately it is very rare to find someone who is totally unreasonable here; but we could all work this a little more, including myself. One thing I'm working at keeping in mind is that a slam of something I like is not a slam against me.

Best,

Geoff


Enthusiasm powers the world.

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Quote:
Originally posted by Mixerman:
[QUOTE]You claim that I'm bringing a knife to a gun fight. I disagree. You see, I'm not at a fight. I'm at a rec center.
Exactly. Jeez, why is this so hard to get?

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Mixerman,

OK. Fair enough. I had thought that concealing your identity was more important to you than you make it sound now. No big deal. Nevermind.

Cheers!
Nika.

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Quote:
Originally posted by Mixerman:
You claim that I'm bringing a knife to a gun fight. I disagree. You see, I'm not at a fight. I'm at a rec center.
Seems more like a a 4th-grade recess at times. Let's not flatter ourselves.

Mixerman seems to want it both ways: on the one hand, to hold ProTools up to lofty scientific engineering standards; but then turn around and claim he's just having fun and blowing off steam. It doesn't add up.

These are engineering forums. Engineering is a rational, science-based vocation. Kidding around for laughs to break the monotony is one thing. I'm all for that. Spreading misinformation about a widely used tool of our trade, for the sake of personal notoriety, and to hawk a rival platform, goes out of the bounds of ethical standards for a science-based field.

In other words, Mixerman has seriously damaged his credibility with this whole "Alsihad" stunt. He better hope his identity is not disclosed publicly.

E


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Quote:
Originally posted by Curve Dominant:
Quote:
Originally posted by Mixerman:
You claim that I'm bringing a knife to a gun fight. I disagree. You see, I'm not at a fight. I'm at a rec center.
Seems more like a a 4th-grade recess at times. Let's not flatter ourselves.

Mixerman seems to want it both ways: on the one hand, to hold ProTools up to lofty scientific engineering standards; but then turn around and claim he's just having fun and blowing off steam. It doesn't add up.

These are engineering forums. Engineering is a rational, science-based vocation. Kidding around for laughs to break the monotony is one thing. I'm all for that. Spreading misinformation about a widely used tool of our trade, for the sake of personal notoriety, and to hawk a rival platform, goes out of the bounds of ethical standards for a science-based field.

In other words, Mixerman has seriously damaged his credibility with this whole "Alsihad" stunt. He better hope his identity is not disclosed publicly.

E
I reported the truth of what happened on my tests. I went in with an open mind. There were no measurmenets made, I ststed that is was unscientific, I was challenged on my findings, as I expected I would be. I am making a CD for anyone who wants it to hear for themsleves.

Yes, I also hold serious discussions on my forum too. And I respond with seriousness on these forums as well. How many times have you seen me post an answer to a lads question? I'd say many, many times. Too many to count. I didn't think I really needed to mention that, but you've provided me the opportunity to fill in the blanks. So thanks for that.

The Alsihad-192 v. Radar thread was not joke. And I would feel no loss of credibility were my name to come out. The large majority of people discussing that particular thread know my real name. My cred as Mixerman is just as, if not more important than, my real name. Don't mistake that.

And this is hardly a science-based vocation. Test measurements that produce scientific results will not necessarily yeild any correlating auditory or emotional responses. It's a subjective vocation, and I post my subjectivity. You can take it or leave it.

My test of Alsihad-192 will cause many people to test my results for themselves. There will be many attempts to disprove my findings. That's a bad thing how?

Mixerman
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hey MM,

pro tools
pro tools
pro tools
pro tools
pro tools
pro tools
pro tools
pro tools
pro tools
pro tools
pro tools
pro tools
pro tools
pro tools

lol
:p

just fuckin wit ya


alphajerk
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Quote:
Originally posted by alphajerk:
hey MM,

pro tools
pro tools
pro tools
pro tools
pro tools
pro tools
pro tools
pro tools
pro tools
pro tools
pro tools
pro tools
pro tools
pro tools

lol
:p

just fuckin wit ya
LOL.

See, Alpha understands entertainment.

Mixerman
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Quote:
My test of Alsihad-192 will cause many people to test my results for themselves. There will be many attempts to disprove my findings. That's a bad thing how?

Mixerman
Well, for starters, you conveniently locked the topic on your forum, preventing anyone from doing just that; and before you even responded comprehensively to the numerous examples in the process of being discussed on that thread, as to how many ways your comparison test could have been flawed.

So, if anyone still cares enough to test your results, they cannot do so, because you have closed the discussion forum.

Quote:
I reported the truth of what happened on my tests. I went in with an open mind. There were no measurmenets made, I stated that is was unscientific
There are several contradictions in this statement. You reported "the truth," but it "was unscientific." And on the thread, you repeatedly asserted that there were no flaws or variables in the test. Are you now backing away from any claim of objectivity?

And what about the rented ProTools rig that you "tested"? Was there any follow-up to see if there was some kind of calibration flaw on the inputs of that unit? Since you locked your thread discussing those issues, we have to assume no.

Quote:
Yes, I also hold serious discussions on my forum too. And I respond with seriousness on these forums as well. How many times have you seen me post an answer to a lads question? I'd say many, many times. Too many to count. I didn't think I really needed to mention that, but you've provided me the opportunity to fill in the blanks. So thanks for that.
Remind me to award you your Popeye Pin when I you see me at the next AES meeting.

Quote:
The Alsihad-192 v. Radar thread was not joke.
What was it then, exactly? You just stated that your comparison test was unscientific. So, it was subjective, a rant on your opinions of ProTools. Since the definition of the word "joke" is wholly subjective, you cannot definitively prove that "The Alsihad-192 v. Radar thread was not (a) joke."

Quote:
And I would feel no loss of credibility were my name to come out. The large majority of people discussing that particular thread know my real name. My cred as Mixerman is just as, if not more important than, my real name. Don't mistake that.
You keep making this the issue, which is coming off as more than a tad narcissistic. This whole issue is inherently irrelevant. Those of us who know your real identity (and its accompanying credibility) make no distinction between it and "mixerman." And those who don't, as you've repeatedly confessed, are among the ranks of "every tweaked out lurker on the internet," and "every joker with an Alsihad rig in their basement," thus not among your client base, and so why would they possibly care who you "really" are? As if you don't demonstrate that succinctly on these forums!

Quote:
And this is hardly a science-based vocation. Test measurements that produce scientific results will not necessarily yeild any correlating auditory or emotional responses. It's a subjective vocation, and I post my subjectivity. You can take it or leave it.
It's a good thing for you that Paul Frindle isn't here to respond to that, or the newly-ripped asshole would be your own.

Test measurements of kit are not meant to "yeild any correlating auditory or emotional responses," they are meant to measure the performance of kit. A 5dB rolloff at 60Hz in LA is a 5dB rolloff at 60Hz in NYC, or any other damn place. I cannot believe that I, a composer, have to explain this to you, an engineer.

Which vocation is it that you consider not science-based, mixerman? Choose among the following two...

1) Art? True, but when in the studio, art is my concern, not yours.

2) Sound engineering? You bet your ASS it better be considered science-based by any engineer I am in the studio with. If you had blown a chunk of MY recording budget because you don't know how to accurately test a system, your real identity would be in lights ALL OVER these forums.

But, like you, I like to help, and I see these forums as an opportunity not only to gain knowledge, but to share it. As a composer, I would like to see engineers learn more and excel at their craft, since I depend upon engineers to accurately render recordings of my works. Towards that end, mixerman, I would like to share with you the following link. It is a dissertation by Paul Frindle. Paul is an electrical engineer and designer, and part of the Sony Oxford team, among other widely acclaimed accomplishments. He is also, I am honored to say, somewhat of a mentor and tutor to me on the subjects of audio engineering, as are Nika and Dr. Stanley Lipshitz. The paper here by Mr. Frindle is titled "Are We Measuring The Right Things?"

http://www.pfrindle.free-online.co.uk/aestestf1.html

I sincerely hope you find it useful.

Best regards,
Eric Vincent (ASCAP)
Curve Dominant Sound&Vision
curvdominant@earthlink.net


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OK, Mixerman, I'd like a CD of what you did - please email me, stevepow@bullmoondigital.com, and let me know what I need to do to get it. I already know who you are, so don't worry about me giving away the farm.

Curve makes a good point about engineering and this is why:

1) it is makes no sense that, with the plethora of converters out there that are pretty OK these days (even the converters in a $1500 DA78 sound pretty good), that MOA would make something that crappy. It seems like that would be more work than doing it even reasonably well.

2) It makes no sense that you did not find a problem - I think you have demonstrated, with credibiltiy, that your ears are pretty finely tuned.

So we have at least two thing that don't add up together and I thing an engineering approacch is the only way to understand what is going on. You can dismiss the gear if you like, but that does not seem like the path to understanding - Alsi or not, it just seems like an unusual approach to a problem.

You process does not sound flawed, but we did not see you execute the process - maybe you overlooked something - I have done this countless times over the years - sometimes becomming extremely frustrated with a piece of equipment, only to find out that my process was perfect, but my execution was not.

Reading these posts I began to think - well wow, maybe I need to check out a Radar as well --- wait a second, no I don't! I have a hard disk recorder and if using equally good converters, I should be able to get the same results - unless IZ has a lock on the coolest converters out there right now. That seems hard to believe also. Fortunatley my system is reasonably open and I can choose the converters I wish to use. That AlsiHD is no longer open is brain dead, I'll give you that.

Anyway, if your goal was entertainment, this thread has certainly been that - good job. So, can you hook me up with that CD?

Thanks.


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Quote:
Originally posted by stevepow:
Reading these posts I began to think - well wow, maybe I need to check out a Radar as well --- wait a second, no I don't! I have a hard disk recorder and if using equally good converters, I should be able to get the same results - unless IZ has a lock on the coolest converters out there right now. That seems hard to believe also. Fortunatley my system is reasonably open and I can choose the converters I wish to use. That AlsiHD is no longer open is brain dead, I'll give you that.

Thanks.
I think there has been some discussion on other newsgroups about using Radar as a front (and back) end for ProTools. I tried to ascertain from Mixerman whether he has compared ProTools with Radar when using Radar as the A/D's and D/A's for both of them, but instead I was banned from his board for not using the word Alsihad. (So much for the pursuit of audio truth!) Anyway, yes, that is an interesting question. I'm also curious what the Radar convertors spec out at in regards to latency.

Don't you think that digi will make a digital interface for HD, allowing for third party convertors? I think they will, but can see that their first move would be to introduce their own. After all, it is a business!

Frank

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Originally posted by Curve Dominant:
[QB]
Quote:
My test of Alsihad-192 will cause many people to test my results for themselves. There will be many attempts to disprove my findings. That's a bad thing how?

Mixerman
"Well, for starters, you conveniently locked the topic on your forum, preventing anyone from doing just that; and before you even responded comprehensively to the numerous examples in the process of being discussed on that thread, as to how many ways your comparison test could have been flawed."

You are free to re-open the discussion as a new thread. It was getting a bit difficult to maneuver through 20 pages, plus I was dealing with a troll. Please don't tell me that you didn't feel you could open a new thread. That just doesn't make any sense.

"So, if anyone still cares enough to test your results, they cannot do so, because you have closed the discussion forum."

Yeah right! Like if someone tests my results and gets different results, you think they won't open a new thread? Spare me.

Quote:
I reported the truth of what happened on my tests. I went in with an open mind. There were no measurmenets made, I stated that is was unscientific
"There are several contradictions in this statement. You reported "the truth," but it "was unscientific." And on the thread, you repeatedly asserted that there were no flaws or variables in the test. Are you now backing away from any claim of objectivity?"

No, I reported what I heard. I made sure that everything was as scientific as possible where gain structure was concerned. I checked and double checked that I wasn't causing my results by how I was conducting the experiment. I made sure that every machine was at unity level with one another. I made sure I was picking takes blind, consistently and repeatedly. I made sure that I changed any possible variables that could be causing my blind results. So while my testing methods used science to a certain degree, I was using my ears to make my determinations.

"And what about the rented ProTools rig that you "tested"? Was there any follow-up to see if there was some kind of calibration flaw on the inputs of that unit? Since you locked your thread discussing those issues, we have to assume no."

You "assume no" because you are pessimistic, and feel that I have some sort of agenda. My agenda is to know the truth of the matter, you just don't agree with my method of determining the truth. I am waiting for the results of these tests. If the rental company blows it off I will report that. Last I spoke with them, they were VERY interested in testing the product for two reasons. One, they do not want to be renting a broken machine (if that's the case) for $700 per day. Two, the techs there are all home recordists that have Alsihad and want to figure it out for themselves. Have a little faith.

Quote:
Yes, I also hold serious discussions on my forum too. And I respond with seriousness on these forums as well. How many times have you seen me post an answer to a lads question? I'd say many, many times. Too many to count. I didn't think I really needed to mention that, but you've provided me the opportunity to fill in the blanks. So thanks for that.
"Remind me to award you your Popeye Pin when I you see me at the next AES meeting."

I shall.

Quote:
The Alsihad-192 v. Radar thread was not joke.
"What was it then, exactly? You just stated that your comparison test was unscientific. So, it was subjective, a rant on your opinions of ProTools. Since the definition of the word "joke" is wholly subjective, you cannot definitively prove that "The Alsihad-192 v. Radar thread was not (a) joke.""

I don't believe I've ever used the word joke. I use the word entertainment. My findings that there was a considerable loss of low end, so much so that even untrained ears could hear it readily and easily. The subjectivity that comes into play is my estimation of how much low end was lost, and at what crossover point. That, I readily admitted.

I also have the audio files well documented, and someone else with the proper equipment can measure my results. Personally, the actual numbers are irrelevant to me. The loss was excessive, easily heard, and considered unacceptable to more than just myself. That's all I care about.

Quote:
And I would feel no loss of credibility were my name to come out. The large majority of people discussing that particular thread know my real name. My cred as Mixerman is just as, if not more important than, my real name. Don't mistake that.
"You keep making this the issue, which is coming off as more than a tad narcissistic."

You brought it up, not me.

"This whole issue is inherently irrelevant. Those of us who know your real identity (and its accompanying credibility) make no distinction between it and "mixerman." And those who don't, as you've repeatedly confessed, are among the ranks of "every tweaked out lurker on the internet," and "every joker with an Alsihad rig in their basement," thus not among your client base, and so why would they possibly care who you "really" are? As if you don't demonstrate that succinctly on these forums!"

Now you are taking my words out of context. Perhpas you should revisit where those quotes came from, and read them as they were intended. Not as you heard them.

Quote:
And this is hardly a science-based vocation. Test measurements that produce scientific results will not necessarily yeild any correlating auditory or emotional responses. It's a subjective vocation, and I post my subjectivity. You can take it or leave it.
"It's a good thing for you that Paul Frindle isn't here to respond to that, or the newly-ripped asshole would be your own."

I seriously doubt that (and I'm shaking in my boots). Anyone that has been doing test measurments on gear for any amount of time knows that two pieces of gear could test identically, and a PERSON, through listening could hear differences and even pick blind between the two pieces of gear consistnetly.

"Test measurements of kit are not meant to "yeild any correlating auditory or emotional responses," they are meant to measure the performance of kit. A 5dB rolloff at 60Hz in LA is a 5dB rolloff at 60Hz in NYC, or any other damn place. I cannot believe that I, a composer, have to explain this to you, an engineer."

Again, test measurements are not of concern to me. Auditory measurements are. I leave test measurements up to the people that are qualified for doing such things. All my measurements will always be done by ear, and will gain credibility (if only for myself) through my ability to pick blind.

"Which vocation is it that you consider not science-based, mixerman? Choose among the following two...

1) Art? True, but when in the studio, art is my concern, not yours.

2) Sound engineering? You bet your ASS it better be considered science-based by any engineer I am in the studio with. If you had blown a chunk of MY recording budget because you don't know how to accurately test a system, your real identity would be in lights ALL OVER these forums."


But given your scenario, I would have saved you an enourmous chunk of change. In fact, the people involved with this particular session are grateful that I saved them from completley destroying their audio with Alsihad-192 AND saved them about $400 per day in rentals. And not because I used science to measure, but rather to set up the test in a fair and telling way.

I used Science to set-up the test, and I used my ears to determine the results. No matter how much you stomp your feet, profess otherwise, or point me to links, I am only interested in using my ears. I am not inconsistent in that on the internet or otherwise. And I certainly preach consistnetly that people should use their ears rather than test equipment to make their judgements. Test equipment should be used to find out WHY someone is hearing a problem. Not as an indicator that someone SHOULDN"T be hearing a problem. You have it backwards.

My tests used scientific process' to determine there was a problem, but the science stopped there. In other words, I expressed my findings, I described what happened, but I do not have the time nor the desire to retest the system to the point that I am now providing free labor to Mother of Alsihad. I offerred to make her system fail for her in her presence, but she still has not called me to set it up.

I hardly think that she is sluffing me off as a crackpot, as she would love to get me to shut up about her product.

No, if MOA were interested in "science" (as you seem so hell bent on), or hearing their system fail, they probably could have called me up and I could have demonstarted their systems failures. I offerred this service to them but they haven't responded. They don't seem interested in science, so why are you?

"But, like you, I like to help, and I see these forums as an opportunity not only to gain knowledge, but to share it.

And who's getting the Popeye award now?

As a composer, I would like to see engineers learn more and excel at their craft, since I depend upon engineers to accurately render recordings of my works."

And unfortunately, in my opinion (isn't it sad that I have to actuially preface that this is my opinion? What else would it be?) the large part of the reason that engineering skills have dropped so drastically is because of Alsihad itself. Perhaps I'll go into detail as to why I pin this phenomenon to Alsihad on my forum at some later date.

"Towards that end, mixerman, I would like to share with you the following link. It is a dissertation by Paul Frindle. Paul is an electrical engineer and designer, and part of the Sony Oxford team, among other widely acclaimed accomplishments. He is also, I am honored to say, somewhat of a mentor and tutor to me on the subjects of audio engineering, as are Nika and Dr. Stanley Lipshitz. The paper here by Mr. Frindle is titled "Are We Measuring The Right Things?""

I guess I should read that. I'm trying to elongate my memeber, yet I keep measuring my toes.

Mixerman
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Quote:
Originally posted by Frank Rizzo:
Quote:
Originally posted by stevepow:
Reading these posts I began to think - well wow, maybe I need to check out a Radar as well --- wait a second, no I don't! I have a hard disk recorder and if using equally good converters, I should be able to get the same results - unless IZ has a lock on the coolest converters out there right now. That seems hard to believe also. Fortunatley my system is reasonably open and I can choose the converters I wish to use. That AlsiHD is no longer open is brain dead, I'll give you that.

Thanks.
I think there has been some discussion on other newsgroups about using Radar as a front (and back) end for ProTools. I tried to ascertain from Mixerman whether he has compared ProTools with Radar when using Radar as the A/D's and D/A's for both of them, but instead I was banned from his board for not using the word Alsihad. (So much for the pursuit of audio truth!) Anyway, yes, that is an interesting question. I'm also curious what the Radar convertors spec out at in regards to latency.

Don't you think that digi will make a digital interface for HD, allowing for third party convertors? I think they will, but can see that their first move would be to introduce their own. After all, it is a business!

Frank
You were not banned from my board for using the word Pro Tools. You are still free to post there. You WERE asked not to post conversations with yourself with 10 different personalities. You don't see that as a bit problematic?

Do not misrepresent the truth of the matter. You're hardly martyr material.

Mixerman
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Mixerman,

Was the test blindfolded? Was it double blindfolded. If it wasn't then it wasn't done scientifically.


"The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in a period of moral crisis
maintain their neutrality."

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Thanks Curve, for posting that very interesting link.
A quote from that:
"Above all, it is a complete mistake to consider that all is understood in the field of audio quality and become too comfortable with ones own beliefs."

Paul repeatedly emphasizes that because a piece of kit tested one way on the bench, does not mean it will act that way in the user environment, for any of a staggering amount of reasons.

StevePow mentioned the DA78 converters. I think these are an interesting case. They sound vague and cloudy enough to make a person think their room is an acoustic swamp (as I did before I put some better converters to my DA78), yet they are really rather pleasant in tone. I'm always amazed how listenable projects I've done with the DA78 converters sound, although clarity is seriously compromised. Using the RME converters, and at a higher sample rate, the sound is crystal clear, with all kinds of detail and dimension, and yet the overall tone is less friendly than with the DA78 converters.
FWIW.
I do hope to find some converters that sound pleasant and yield very high resolution....
Ted


A WOP BOP A LU BOP, A LOP BAM BOOM!

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Quote:
Originally posted by Mixerman:
You were not banned from my board for using the word Pro Tools. You are still free to post there. You WERE asked not to post conversations with yourself with 10 different personalities. You don't see that as a bit problematic?

Do not misrepresent the truth of the matter. You're hardly martyr material.

Mixerman
http://www.prosoundweb.com/recpit [/QB]
Boy, you sure are scrappy. So, are you implying that we are free to post on your board using the words ProTools and Digidesign? Please let us all know.

Frank

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Quote:
Originally posted by Ted Nightshade:
Thanks Curve, for posting that very interesting link.
A quote from that:
"Above all, it is a complete mistake to consider that all is understood in the field of audio quality and become too comfortable with ones own beliefs."

StevePow mentioned the DA78 converters. I think these are an interesting case. They sound vague and cloudy enough to make a person think their room is an acoustic swamp (as I did before I put some better converters to my DA78), yet they are really rather pleasant in tone. I'm always amazed how listenable projects I've done with the DA78 converters sound, although clarity is seriously compromised. Using the RME converters, and at a higher sample rate, the sound is crystal clear, with all kinds of detail and dimension, and yet the overall tone is less friendly than with the DA78 converters.
FWIW.
I do hope to find some converters that sound pleasant and yield very high resolution....
Ted
Great quote from Paul - a humble attitude - takes a while to come to that point, I think.

As for the DA78 converters; see this is all so subjective. I have used these things to record so many live performances - maybe they were in an acoustic swamp \:D - the nature of live shows - but even the DI'd tracks sound fine.

I dragged my AD8Ks out once and the difference (not sure I'd even call it better) was so small, that all that extra weight (24 tracks of AD8K) just was not worth it - I emailed Apogee and asked them how they planned to remain competitive with so much new gear coming out with useable comverters for so much less money - they said they will - I'm waiting - maybe I should just do the SE upgrades and be happy with 44.1/48 as is Mixerman - but then rob says no - 96 is the shit or was it 192?.

So wait for the fallout I guess - put the money into good mics and pres that will outlive all this digital growing pain stuff.

That said, I'm sure there are droves who think the AD8Ks suck as well. I'll continue to use them because, to get back on topic, they are "Alls I Had"


Steve Powell - Bull Moon Digital
http://www.bullmoondigital.com
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