Rolling chords in jazz?

[Foxtrot3]

My jazz teacher showed me some great new voicings with wide intervals last week. To my disappointment, I realised when I tried them out on my own piano that my hands were simply too small to attempt these voicings involving 9th and 10ths on one hand.

 

I have heard some suggestions involving the rolling chord technique, which I have heard being done to great effect in classical pieces. However, I had trouble finding some good inspiring examples of players rolling chords, either as left hand comping during their own solo, or both hands comping for other instruments.

 

Are there any good examples of records that demonstrate some of this technique or any famous players rolling chords to reach wider intervals while comping?

[Morrissey]

Posting to commiserate. I can get the 9ths but not many of the 10ths. Most of the applications I would like to do pertain to solo piano (e.g., root-7-3 in LH). I remind myself I can get along without those spread voicings in a combo setting. I've been defaulting to more of a stride-style solo playing when those voicings are appropriate, rather than investing a lot of practice into a good rolling technique.

[Shamanczarek]

The average piano player should be able to reach a tenth if both notes are white keys or both are black keys. Try C to the E an octave up. If you can reach this you can do a good number of tenths. Try D to the octave up F#. This will be difficult for many players. You can roll this one by having the damper pedal down and quickly go from D to F#. A good practice piece for left-hand tenths I've found is "The Way It Is" by Bruce Hornsby. Most of the tenths are white keys and are held for a full measure. The stretch range of your left-hand will increase if you put in the practice.

[GovernorSilver]

That D to F# stretch is a doozy, especially if the goal is to not play the E by accident. That puts me below average. That's ok - whatever I do on keys is more for exploring and understanding harmonic concepts than "mastery" of the piano. Risk-reward ratio - with risk of hand injury - does not look favorable when considering my goals.

 

Had a friend in university who was a killer classical pianist but she was a little lady with small hands. She did mention some tricks with the damper or something that classical pedagogy have designed over the years for pianists not born with the ideal handspan

[MathOfInsects]

The average piano player should be able to reach a tenth if both notes are white keys or both are black keys.

 

With respect, this statement is in no way true. Reaching a 10th (in a practical, playable way) is far more an exception than the rule.

[Tom Williams]

The average piano player should be able to reach a tenth if both notes are white keys or both are black keys.

Well, if the "average" is a median, then that puts half of us in the below-average side of the curve. I can reach a 9th, but not in a way that is particularly musically useful. Frankly, sustained octave voicings fatigue me. As a result, a lot of my solo piano playing is modified boom-chick on the left hand and short interval melodies on the right.

With respect, this statement is in no way true. Reaching a 10th (in a practical, playable way) is far more an exception than the rule.

Thanks -- I feel less abnormal now. :-)

[Mighty Motif Max]

Starting about a year ago I started experimenting with playing 10ths on some solo piano tunes...I can do it for most 10ths (but the previously-mentioned D-F# is a stretch). Oddly enough I can kind of play an 11th from C-F, but that D-F# is just a pain.

 

Then again I'm told I have larger than average hands. For some intervals I will "roll" notes quickly depending on the context. It works well enough if you do it quickly enough.

[Foxtrot3]

Thanks for all of the responses guys. It's somewhat reassuring that we are all faced with the same issue of hand span...

 

Are there any examples of good chord rolling done in a jazz context? Perhaps some YouTube videos or specific records would be great.

[Dave Number Four]

Hi Foxtrot3,

 

I think in most cases a jazz pianist who can't reach a bigger voicing in one hand would just choose a smaller, more comfortable voicing.

[Docbop]

Not everyone has those bear paw hands to reach 10th's. Still being a piano newbie and studying from a Jazz POV I hear people talk about rolling to catch 10th's quite a bit, so I'd say it's pretty normal move for pianists. Weird feeling watching pianists Nahre Sol or Natalie Tenenbaum and saying.... Ooooo they gotz BIG hands.

[Shamanczarek]

Watch this guy reach tenths and other shorter intervals using the fourth finger and thumb almost exclusively in his left hand.

 

[video:youtube]

[Morrissey]

Watch this guy reach tenths and other shorter intervals using the fourth finger and thumb almost exclusively in his left hand.

 

Wowza! He could play INNER voices with his pinky!

[Bobadohshe]

Are there any examples of good chord rolling done in a jazz context? Perhaps some YouTube videos or specific records would be great.

 

 

It depends on the style you are playing. If you are doing old solo piano styles like Stride, or even doing some LH bebop voicings, the rolling effect can sound fine. If you are just comping chords in a modern ensemble context, rolling chords would be weird unless you are going for that specific effect.

 

The good news however is that we usually don't play huge fat chords on uptempo ensemble tunes. Comping is lighter and more surgical and you don't really need them. It's only mostly when playing solo that you need to spell out so much harmonic information across different registers of the piano that you would call more on those 10ths. And in that case, rolling it will probably be fine.

 

If 10ths are truly out of reach I would suggest at least getting more comfortable with 9ths. Even if the 9ths are a stretch, hopefully you can work on them and get it feeling more comfortable.

[Spider76]

I don't think Petrucciani or Hiromi were born with huge hands. Still...

[Legatoboy]

If the interval is hard to reach I was taught to roll them - roll em' easy to take a quote... slow and easy - on practice regardless to the type of music.

 

You can hurt your hands, I don;t know if anyone has mentioned that... you do still have to take care of them regardless to any music's demands or your own..

You do not have to have huge hands to be expressive on piano and most important is a person's individual finger joint flexibility ... which is so much more important in general than making a wide reach ....90%+ of piano music is in that realm I would have to say ....at least that I have played... Chopin being an exception....I've had to roll a few things and I have wide hands...

[GovernorSilver]

Yeah, when I posted my reaction to trying the D to F# stretch, I mentioned injury as a possibility if straining too hard.

 

I hope the teacher who does all those amazing stretches in the video knows how to work with students whose cannot achieve those same stretches due to small hands or a health issue.

 

Some people are not meant to be teachers - including someone who is so gifted, physically or otherwise, that they cannot understand what it is like to not possess those gifts, and thus cannot really teach.

[Docbop]

I hope the teacher who does all those amazing stretches in the video knows how to work with students whose cannot achieve those same stretches due to small hands or a health issue.

 

Some people are not meant to be teachers - including someone who is so gifted, physically or otherwise, that they cannot understand what it is like to not possess those gifts, and thus cannot really teach.

 

I see teachers who easily do 10ths and will say they understand students with small hands, but keep giving things to work on that require 10ths. Then instead of helping student with rolling they just say leave the 10th out. That is frustrating.

[PianoMan51]

There"s a part of this conversation that"s about natural ability. Rachmaninov was supposedly able to play 12th. (Though what this suggests about other attributes can be left for another post).

 

But I will attest that, having started piano at eight, my hands have developed in a weird way to play those octaves and tenths. Not perfectly. D major is easier than Eb major.

 

When I bought Gentle Giant"s Free Hand album I looked at the front cover and recognized the gap between the fourth and fifth finger as belonging to a keyboardist.

[stoken6]

Rachmaninov was supposedly able to play 12th.

Which gives me an excuse to post this:

 

Cheers, Mike.

[GovernorSilver]

I hope the teacher who does all those amazing stretches in the video knows how to work with students whose cannot achieve those same stretches due to small hands or a health issue.

 

Some people are not meant to be teachers - including someone who is so gifted, physically or otherwise, that they cannot understand what it is like to not possess those gifts, and thus cannot really teach.

 

I see teachers who easily do 10ths and will say they understand students with small hands, but keep giving things to work on that require 10ths. Then instead of helping student with rolling they just say leave the 10th out. That is frustrating.

 

Teachers who are truly good teachers.

 

They ain't easy to find.

[Docbop]

This just popped up on Jeremy Siskind's YouTube a talk with a woman on Jazz piano technique and she talks about 10th's. She starts talking about 10ths at 23:46 point in the video.

 

[video:youtube]

[Foxtrot3]

Here is an interesting video from Kent Hewitt that demonstrates 10th voicings in the left hand quite well. From 3:20 onwards. Seems like Kent rolls some of his 10ths to good effect as well.

 

[video:youtube]

 

Here's another one:

[video:youtube]

[re Pete]

Nice discussion, but I wish she just had the camera farther away so she didn't move it so much.