Is Bad Mama Jama in C or Am? (deep music theory, please)

[Morrissey]

This isn't a goof -- genuinely seeking some music theory discussion/education on the key of this song. I know it doesn't matter much in practice (Am is relative minor of C major), but it is nagging at me. Seems like answer should be simple -- short chord progression repeats the entire song, something like Am - D9 - G7sus4 - Cmaj. vi - II7 - V7 - I in key of C, right? But I instinctively FEEL (most of) the song in Am. Maybe it is best thought of as a repeating pattern of (Key of Am) i - V7 - bVII7 modulating briefly to Cmajor?

 

 

 

 

[video:youtube]

[johnchop]

I feel it resolve to C, so the first option -- a fairly standard progression at that -- makes more sense to me.

[KuruPrionz]

As you've noted, it transitions. I would say it is in C with Am sections. Pretty easy to "play it as it lays" in either case.

 

If it fills the dance floor the band is playing it correctly. Bottom line.

[timwat]

I feel it resolve to C, so the first option -- a fairly standard progression at that -- makes more sense to me.

 

Agreed. The progression resolves that very strong move from the V to the I, which is supported by the feel of rhythmically resolving - it's an harmonic phrase that ends in the I.

[AnotherScott]

I agree, C. Kinda like "Isn't She Lovely."

[Morrissey]

Thanks, folks. Intellectually, I get the case for the key of C. Common 6-2-5-1 cadence. But there's something (the endless looping of the progression?) that doesn't make my bones feel the resolution to C. I don't know about you, but I can't play this progression and stop playing it on the C. Gotta walk it down to A. I'd rather end this tune walking down to A MAJOR than on C major.

 

I agree, C. Kinda like "Isn't She Lovely."

 

Great comparison tune. What a song! Stevie uses this same progression in the verse, and leverages other sections of the tune to more firmly establish the tonic.

[Docbop]

Hanging with some old Jazz cats they talk about how they avoid saying something in Key they would just say were playing in and say the number of flats or sharps. They said saying a key like Ami or C major limits your thinking and you automatically start thinking in terms of licks and lines you know in that key from past. Allow if they say we're playing in four flats that could be thought of as major, minor, or a number of modes and limit how you think. Just saying N sharps or flats you just think of the notes as a pitch collection you can do anything with, combine notes in any way harmonicly.

 

Just throw out how some view key signatures they can close your mind instead of open it.

[El Lobo]

But seriously, the lyrics ...

 

Her body measurements

Are perfect in every dimension

She's got a figure

That's sure enough getting attention

She's poetry in motion

A beautiful sight to see

I get so excited

Viewing her anatomy

She's built

Oh, she's stacked

Got all the curves that men like

[bfields]

A song that goes around and around like this forever is never going to feel completely resolved. Your ear always expects it to go onto the next thing again.

 

The vocal phrase pretty much always ends on the C, through, right? Seems that's as close to a resting point as the song has.

 

Doesn't mean it wouldn't work it to end it on some other chord. Lots of songs end on a chord other than the tonic.

[timwat]

But seriously, the lyrics ...

 

Her body measurements

Are perfect in every dimension

She's got a figure

That's sure enough getting attention

She's poetry in motion

A beautiful sight to see

I get so excited

Viewing her anatomy

She's built

Oh, she's stacked

Got all the curves that men like

 

Yeah, it's a frequent choice for the bride's processional at the wine country weddings we play.

[MathOfInsects]

Pretty straightforward vi-II-V[really IV/V]-I to my ear--meaning C all day. It is built around the stability of that C resolve. Anything with a II (instead of ii) is always slightly ambiguous until it resolves.

[El Lobo]

Yeah, it's a frequent choice for the bride's processional at the wine country weddings we play.

Yeah, either that or Brick House. Unless bride's mom wants the Taco Bell Cannon -- that's where they shoot tacos all over the wedding party.

[torhu]

I hear it as being in A minor a bit more than C. I don't think it's trying to establish a key, it's just a bit ambiguous. Does that make sense?

[MAJUSCULE]

The walkdown shots leading back to A blur the lines, I get why you'd want to end on A. Not sure if I'd play it major though...

[cphollis]

Not being a music theorist by any stretch of the imagination, I go with "what sounds good?' Sat down and jammed the Am7 D9 G7sus4 Cmaj7. It's all about how you handle the F note -- F natural, or F sharp?

 

The F natural works well in tone clusters and lead lines throughout, the exception being the D9 where I found myself sliding towards a D7#9 incorporating the F natural as part of the melody. Turned into a funky clav lick before long.

 

So, for me, I'd be thinking in C except for that bit.

[KuruPrionz]

B dim works either way so that's no help.

[ProfD]

But seriously, the lyrics ...

It's an ode to well built women wrapped up in a funky dance tune.

[Morrissey]

Lots of good comments and advice. This discussion has crystallized what prompted me to ask in the first place. I'm not worried in the slightest about how to perform the song. Instead, I'm struggling with what I'd say if the the tune gets called and a bandmate asks me right before the downbeat: "what key is this in?" I mean, this chord progression is so short and the song is so repetitive, it is liable to be called even at open mic nights.

 

Docbop's comment about jazzers speaking in terms of # of sharps/flats instead of keys makes sense to me, but I know that concept won't resonate with some of the funk/soul/pop musicians I play with. If I'm playing with a generic hobbyist guitar player, I think I'm gonna tell 'em the key is Am. Perhaps not the best music theory answer, but I bet will produce the best performance. If I'm playing with sophisticated musos, I'm saying Key of C.

 

I'm struggling to think of another song where I'd give different answers as to what key a song is in, depending on the situation.

[Delaware Dave]

What's the sheet music say? If you're playing the song in the exact same pitch (and you know the chords of the song, sounds like you do) then if the sheet music says it is Am then the correct response is Am. If the sheet music says C, then it's C. It doesn't appear from your discussion above that whether it is Am or C that you would play the song any differently. So technically, the sheet music documentation is the right answer. A C6 chord is represented by notes C-E-G-A; an Am7 are the exact same notes, just that the A note is the last of the 4 notes rather than the first of the 4 notes. One of the chords is considered a major and one is considered a minor, and one is represented as a A, the other is represented as a C. So if you didn't know the song but know how to read music and someone put the music sheet in front of you and said play this song, the first thing I would do is to check and see how many #'s are sitting in front of the treble clef, if I saw none my first reaction is that the key is C, if I saw three my first reaction is that the song is in A; I wouldn't be reading through the music to see what note/chords create the resolution to determine the key.

 

I just went to the internet and picked some random song I've never heard of before and pulled the sheet music. See the attached, what key is this song in?

 

My two cents.

[AnotherScott]

I hear it as being in A minor a bit more than C. I don't think it's trying to establish a key, it's just a bit ambiguous. Does that make sense?

 

To me, it's only ambiguous for the first four measures, when there are no chords. On the second pass, the chords come in, and to me, all ambiguity is removed. C.

 

I'm struggling to think of another song where I'd give different answers as to what key a song is in, depending on the situation.

 

That's potentially an issue every time the first chord of the song isn't the tonic. Many guitarists in particular seem to equate "first chord" with "key." Sometimes I'll say something like "in C, first chord is Am."

 

Unless they ask the key for Sweet Home Alabama, then all bets are off.

 

What's the sheet music say? ... if the sheet music says it is Am then the correct response is Am. If the sheet music says C, then it's C.

 

The sheet music for C and Am will appear identical, so looking at the sheet music won't help.

[Delaware Dave]

sheet music

[MathOfInsects]

What's the sheet music say?

 

Well, Am and C would look the same on sheet music, but this isn't really what he was asking in the "deep music theory" sense. We determine key by harmonic weight--by where the music most seems to "rest" as a reset point. In this case, it's pretty easy, since the Mother of All Clues to Key in Western music is the V7 chord. Handily, we have one here, right where it should be--the second-to-last-chord, before the C (the I).

 

We can also use note-frequency and where in phrases certain notes appear in the melody. Melody tends to rise away from a home tonic and fall toward it. In this case, the melody is very clearly pointing to C as its constant resting point. Sing along with the track and notice where the melody keeps resting.

 

The only reason there's a question is that the song starts on Am and does something we're used to hearing, which is to go to its IV (the D chord). But the rest of the harmony immediately answers all "3" questions we might have (Is it a ii-V in G? Is is a i-IV in Am? Is it a vi-II in C?) and once it answers those, it doesn't raise any new ones.

 

It's in C. It just doesn't start on C.

[Morrissey]

What's the sheet music say?

 

Well, Am and C would look the same on sheet music, but this isn't really what he was asking in the "deep music theory" sense. We determine key by harmonic weight--by where the music most seems to "rest" as a reset point. In this case, it's pretty easy, since the Mother of All Clues to Key in Western music is the V7 chord. Handily, we have one here, right where it should be--the second-to-last-chord before the C (the I).

 

We can also use note-frequency and where in phrases certain notes appear in the melody. Melody tends to rise away from a home tonic and fall toward it. In this case, the melody is very clearly pointing to C as its constant resting point. Sing along with the track and notice where the melody keeps resting.

 

The only reason there's a question is that the song starts on Am and does something we're used to hearing, which is to go to its IV (the D chord). But the rest of the harmony immediately answers all "3" questions we might have (Is it a ii-V in G? Is is a i-IV in Am? Is it a vi-II in C?) and once it answers those, it doesn't raise any new ones.

 

It's in C. It just doesn't start on C.

 

Thanks, MOI. This is a helpful, detailed response to my original question, and makes good points.

[AnotherScott]

sheet music

Your image did not show sheet music. The sheet music would not say "key," it would just indicate sharps/flats, which of course are identical for Am or C.

[Delaware Dave]

once again, see the attached... and as they say in shark tank, "I'm out", if for no other reason, I don't really care....

[El Lobo]

Lots of good comments and advice. This discussion has crystallized what prompted me to ask in the first place. I'm not worried in the slightest about how to perform the song. Instead, I'm struggling with what I'd say if the the tune gets called and a bandmate asks me right before the downbeat: "what key is this in?" I mean, this chord progression is so short and the song is so repetitive, it is liable to be called even at open mic nights.

 

Docbop's comment about jazzers speaking in terms of # of sharps/flats instead of keys makes sense to me, but I know that concept won't resonate with some of the funk/soul/pop musicians I play with. If I'm playing with a generic hobbyist guitar player, I think I'm gonna tell 'em the key is Am. Perhaps not the best music theory answer, but I bet will produce the best performance. If I'm playing with sophisticated musos, I'm saying Key of C.

 

I'm struggling to think of another song where I'd give different answers as to what key a song is in, depending on the situation.

I think I'd say it (literally) like this: "it's in C but it starts on the 6 minor then goes to the 2 dominant then 5 dominant then the 1." Without knowing the song at all, if someone said that to me on the bandstand as we were getting ready to go, I'd know exactly what the form was. I might miss the first time through but once I heard the timing of the changes, I'd be funkin' it up.