Another stand thread

[MathOfInsects]

With the second tier you are probably in for close to three bills.

 

For three bills I don't expect to be buying a shop project. I want it to talk to me in German about Hegel while it cushions my keyboards in a cloud of watermelon-scented ether.

I don't think it would be a shop project for you... because it looks to me like, with no modifications, it meets your specs EXCEPT for easily adjustable lower tier height, and I don't think THAT one can be fixed even with a shop project!

And the wrong-size and difficult-to-adjust-without-a hacksaw second tier. Minor stuff like that.

[DJkeys]

With the second tier you are probably in for close to three bills.

 

For three bills I don't expect to be buying a shop project. I want it to talk to me in German about Hegel while it cushions my keyboards in a cloud of watermelon-scented ether.

 

True, but these days, any quality stand like the On-Stage Z two tier, of the Standtastic are all $225 and up. I was amazed that keyboard stands had doubled in price since last I checked. I bought my last On Stage KS7365EJ last year for $120. This year it is $220! I fiigured for $60 more I could have exactly what I want and carry it with one finger, literally.

 

I had to jury rig pretty much every stand I ever bought. For the Baby Spider I had to order an extra straight set of arms, remove the extension from them, remove the plastic top holding the mic attachment (because it flexed too much and was unusable), put together three other adapters to put in the internal frame to mount it.

 

-dj

[DJkeys]

With the second tier you are probably in for close to three bills.

 

For three bills I don't expect to be buying a shop project. I want it to talk to me in German about Hegel while it cushions my keyboards in a cloud of watermelon-scented ether.

I don't think it would be a shop project for you... because it looks to me like, with no modifications, it meets your specs EXCEPT for easily adjustable lower tier height, and I don't think THAT one can be fixed even with a shop project!

And the wrong-size and difficult-to-adjust-without-a hacksaw second tier. Minor stuff like that.

 

I use the same rig all the time, so I never have to adjust it, so I understand your frustration-

 

-dj

[AnotherScott]

And the wrong-size and difficult-to-adjust-without-a hacksaw second tier. Minor stuff like that.

It's not necessarily the wrong size, it depends on your boards.

 

There's an inherent problem with the fact that the second tier needs to support boards of wildly different depths. Some, like me, find their length too long and want to cut it back. OTOH, if you have a deep second board (and you don't want to rest the front of it on the back of the bottom board), then the added length is desirable.

 

Moreover, I only find it an issue when stacking 3 boards. When I stack only two, I use the 18881 stacker (instead of the 18882). Since that one can be flipped to work either front or rear facing, its length is never an issue. So a 18880+18881 might work perfectly for you since you only need two tiers... except again for that one issue, that changing the height of the first tier is probably something like a 20 minute project every time. At least for non-mechanical me.

 

I'm curious, you talked about needing different heights depending on whether you're gigging with one board or two and whether you're sitting or standing... What would you say is the total range you need? i.e. you want a stand that can easily be set as low as X inches but can also easily be set as high as Y?

 

Holy forking shirtballs

 

In other news....great show.

A show about what makes life worth living becomes itself an example of one of the things that makes life worth living!

[MathOfInsects]

There's an inherent problem with the fact that the second tier needs to support boards of wildly different depths. Some, like me, find their length too long and want to cut it back. OTOH, if you have a deep second board (and you don't want to rest the front of it on the back of the bottom board), then the added length is desirable.

 

Which. Is. Why. The. Second. Tier. Needs. To. Be. Adaptable.

 

We're not talking about some off-market use here. The only thing the second tier does is support a second board, and those boards come in different sizes, and are played by players with different preferences for where they are placed. And it's not like there are a thousand different options to accommodate. There are maybe three depths, and a couple of variables regarding placement relative to the bottom board. Any second tier that doesn't allow or address this fails at its only job. It's crazy to me how unworkable almost every second tier is without aftermarket power tools. It would be like if a car came with a driver's seat that had one distance from the pedals, and their explanation was that people come in different sizes. RIGHT. So make it maximally adaptable.

 

Ditto the height thing. It's not some crazy idiosyncrasy we're talking about. The literal only thing a stand needs to do is to hold your keyboard the distance off the floor that you need it for playing. "Well, people come in all different sizes." RIGHT. So make it adaptable.

 

Now, if we were talking about $60 stands with limited adaptability, I'd say, "I can see that. What are they supposed to do at that price range?" But $300, $400, $500 for a stand, and you still have to pull out the hacksaw and drill for it to serve the literal only function it needs to do? Whacktown USA.

[MathOfInsects]

There's an inherent problem with the fact that the second tier needs to support boards of wildly different depths. Some, like me, find their length too long and want to cut it back. OTOH, if you have a deep second board (and you don't want to rest the front of it on the back of the bottom board), then the added length is desirable.

 

Which. Is. Why. The. Second. Tier. Needs. To. Be. Adaptable.

 

We're not talking about some off-label use here. The only thing the second tier does is support a keyboard, and boards come in different sizes, and are played by players with different preferences for where they are placed. And it's not like there are a thousand different options to accommodate. There are maybe three depths, and a couple of variables regarding placement relative to the bottom board. Any second tier that doesn't allow or address this fails at its only job. It's crazy to me how unworkable almost every second tier is without aftermarket power tools. It would be like if a car came with a driver's seat that had one distance from the pedals, and their explanation was that people come in different sizes. RIGHT. So make it maximally adaptable.

 

Ditto the height thing. It's not some crazy idiosyncrasy we're talking about. The literal only thing a stand needs to do is to hold your keyboard the distance off the floor that you need it for playing. "Well, people come in all different sizes." RIGHT. So make it adaptable.

 

Now, if we were talking about $60 stands with limited adaptability, I'd say, "I can see that. What are they supposed to do at that price range?" But $300, $400, $500 for a stand, and you still have to pull out the hacksaw and drill for it to serve the literal only function it needs to do? Whacktown USA.

[16251]

I have been looking for clamp for my music rest for my new stand. I bought this table-top music rest from Proline) on Craigslist for $5.It came with a 6" pole. I replaced with longer pole. I searched Google in hardware and mic boom stands, etc for a clamp that would work but had no luck. I finally started searching for flag pole clamps and in search results I finally found a clamp. Some of you can probably guess - it is a Tiki torch deck clamp ($6 at Lowes.) With keyboards on stand, music rest will sit pretty low and angled more so it sits more stealthy than the posted pic. Also in pic you can see the 2nd tier lowered as much as possible for this stand (with added holes.) It is perfect for my current DP.

 

 

[AnotherScott]

There's an inherent problem with the fact that the second tier needs to support boards of wildly different depths. Some, like me, find their length too long and want to cut it back. OTOH, if you have a deep second board (and you don't want to rest the front of it on the back of the bottom board), then the added length is desirable.

Which. Is. Why. The. Second. Tier. Needs. To. Be. Adaptable.

The second tier IS adaptable. Just not infinitely so.

 

The K&M 11882 stacker supporting surface (the one we've been talking about cutting) is 13" deep, plus it has a small extender that can bring it to 18". So it covers a lot of use. (Though the extender--like every extender I've seen--is awkward I think unless maybe you're tilting.) The main limitation to the 11882 arises from the fact that it is designed to be able to be a middle, it has a "pass-thru" tier holder at its rear for adding a third tier above... and that piece that permits the third tier also prevents your second board from hanging off the rear of it (unless you don't attach the third tier, and maybe use that attachment point to instead create another source of tilt). So with a fixed maximum rear distance from the player, they have to support whatever depth you might need from that point forward, so there's a lot of length there. But 13" can sometimes be deeper than you'd want. So what's the answer? I brought mine down to 10-ish inches (and really should have made it a bit shorter). But that size wouldn't work as well if I had a deeper top board and was not able to rest it on the bottom one (e.g. due to its depth). Again, maybe what they should do is offer different length versions...? But if they're going to offer only one, at least it's easier to cut 13" down to 10" than the other way around. ;-)

 

I'll also point out that I'm very fussy about what I'm looking for in a second tier. Often I have a very shallow bottom board, and I want the front of the second tier board to rest on the back of it, so the keys are as close together as possible. This means that the entire second support has to fit behind the lower board. If I were just a bit less fussy, I could let the lower tier supports overlap the bottom board a bit, but now the second tier board is unnecessarily an inch+ higher, and that bugs me. It's also possible that, once the 2nd tier supports overlap the bottom board by more than maybe an inch, they could intefere with my access to the lower board controls. None of this is an issue for people who are okay with (or may even prefer) some vertical inches between their first and second boards. I'm just fussier about getting them tightly together than most.

 

And again, if you're only going two-tier and don't care about being able to add a third tier above, you also have the option of the 18881 stacker, which eliminates the potential obstacle from the pass-thru for another tier, so I've never found a need to alter its length. Though yes, I've wanted it to go lower... I had wished it had no tilt adjustment mechanism, which would make that easier (actually hacked it off some of mine), but then it won't work as well for people who want tilt. We're back to offering different versions. Or as I said, putting risers on the lower tier (which works if the 18881 is a second tier support, but not if it's a third). Should you have to put pieces of wood on it to get it the way you want? Philosophically, maybe not. But if I can get what I want out of it from a $2 piece of wood, I'd rather do that and have what I want than bemoan the fact that it doesn't already come with some mechanism for that additional adjustability. Better to solve the problem and have what you need, than to complain that nobody's solved the problem, right? Especially when you can do it that easily. (Of course, nothing prevents you from solving the problem AND complaining that you shouldn't have to. ;-) )

 

it's not like there are a thousand different options to accommodate. There are maybe three depths, and a couple of variables regarding placement relative to the bottom board

 

There's a good deal of variation, I think you're under-estimating here. Just thinking of some common boards off-hand (and not even counting outliers like small boards with mini-keys or large ones with two manuals), you've got hammer action boards from the new Casios at 9" deep to the Montage at over 18". In non-hammer, you've got Numa Compact at 8.7" to Studiologic Sledge at 16". That's a lot of variation. Three depths for the tier supports won't cover every possibility if you want the boards to line up "just so" (even if you had a design that was easily adjustable and stable at three points over that distance). If you want your 2nd board to be "low and behind" the first one, your total keyboard depth that needs to be supported between the two tiers varies from as little as about 18" to as much as about 34"! Though with a deep bottom board, yeah, I'd give up on my "keep the keys close" preference and give in to putting the second tier higher instead. But still, there are lots of combinations to consider when considering even nothing other than the length of the 2nd-board support tiers, e.g.

... shallow 9" board on bottom, deep 16" board on top

... shallow 9" board on bottom and shallow 9" board on top

... deep 18" board on bottom and shallow 9" board on top

... deep 18" board on bottom and deep 16" board on top

... and every combination in between.

 

And then you've got boards that require a good amount of vertical clearance above in order to access their performance-necessary controls, and boards that don't. And all of that is before you get to the user tilt and/or spacing preferences, which matters because often, more adjustability or support for sizes in one respect comes at the expense of something somewhere else.

 

And now let's throw in the wrinkle that they want to make something that supports the possibility of more than two boards! Now the combinations really multiply.

 

Again, I'm not mechanical, so I'm not going to swear there's no perfect solution here, but I think part of the reason we have no stand that everyone loves may be because, well, there's no perfect solution. I can make my K&M perfect for me by doing things like making the arms shorter, but I know that while that improves it for some board combinations, it will make it worse for others... and sometimes pieces that make things more adjustable manage to suck in their own ways (e.g. fussy setup, less stability). Having a choice of more different kinds of tier supports (in addition to the two that they have) may be the best solution, though if you have to buy different attachments to get every iota of flexibility out of it, it still doesn't give you your dream of a single-movable-piece stand that works for all board combinations and preferred setups.

 

I'll also repeat a previous image post here... this is a single K&M 18880 stand, with two sets of 18882 stackers and one set of 18881. Yes, it required some modification to do this, but nobody else comes close to letting you put 4 boards tightly together on a stand that weighs a total of about 10 lbs and collapses into one piece, You can't have everything, but for some situations, this comes pretty close. Piano, organ, synth, and rompler...

 

 

I could have gotten it better if I had done more modification... the Nord is annoyingly sitting on tiers that are too long (unaltered 13 inches, when it probably only needs to be about 3 inches)... cut that way back, and the Nord gets to sit lower (right on the Numa Organ below), in turn lowering the top board as well, plus those tier arms would no longer get annoyingly in the way of some of the controls on the Numa Organ control panel. But do I really expect K&M to come out with a three inch tier? Or one that can be adjusted to be that small? (I suppose that would have to be engineered to have the excess "come out the back" but now we're taking a solid welded part and making it a moving part, so now we need some non-finicky and strong way to reliably lock it into place and maintain the same structural strength.) The MX49 on top is a little high... that was probably intentional, to bring it slightly forward while still letting me access the controls of the synth below. Always compromises somewhere. ;-)

[MathOfInsects]

Sir, this is an Arby"s.

[Stokely]

AnotherScott is getting perilously close to "Geoff Downes level" in that pic above.

just 5 more "stacks" like that one and you'll be there! (iirc he gigged with 21 keyboards in a literal wall on one of the Asia tours.)

 

My Omega Pro adapter bit finally is in stock, so hopefully my Thomann order ships very shortly. I'm looking forward to the band reaction, which might be: ".....er, why did you get a white stand, don't you think it's a little flashy?" Honestly the only comments I've had from band or audience patrons I've gotten on my rig, ever, has been about my stand(s). Not too long ago I brought the MODX to practice and the singer says "Is that a new keyboard?" Sure, if "new" means "less than two years old, and less than 50 gigs"

[Bobadohshe]

I'll be darned. The stand is here from Germany 5 days after I ordered it from Thomann.

[Joe Muscara]

Whacktown USA.

I think you mean Verrückt DE.

[El Lobo]

I'll be darned. The stand is here from Germany 5 days after I ordered it from Thomann.

Which stand is that? I lost track.

Edit: is that the K&M 18840 Baby Spider Pro Black?

I was amazed at the price difference between Thomann and US sellers like Amazon and Sweetwater. Even with large shipping costs, it's still much cheaper. I'll try to remember to check Thomann in the future.

Edit2: Some products, like JBL Eon One Compact, Thomann is not allowed by the manufacturer to ship to US.

[Bobadohshe]

I'll be darned. The stand is here from Germany 5 days after I ordered it from Thomann.

Which stand is that? I lost track.

Edit: is that the K&M 18840 Baby Spider Pro Black?

I was amazed at the price difference between Thomann and US sellers like Amazon and Sweetwater. Even with large shipping costs, it's still much cheaper. I'll try to remember to check Thomann in the future.

Edit2: Some products, like JBL Eon One Compact, Thomann is not allowed by the manufacturer to ship to US.

 

The Spider Pro. Not the baby one.

[Stokely]

Got my Omega Pro today from Thomann.

 

I really like it, as I expected from K&M it's built like a tank.

 

I attached a pic of it folded up, the one thing I'm not sure of is how the mic stand attachment makes it potentially more awkward to tote around and put in my car, or put in a bag. It sticks out quite a bit (might not be evident from the pic, it's kind of coming right at the camera) and I might be compelled to unscrew it--and if I have to do that, I might just bring a mic stand.

[wjwilcox]

I have a question for those of you who have bought from Thomann. I've been watching their listing for the Stay Slim stand. It's been backordered, but the time for the next batch to arrive goes down and then bounces back up again. I take that to mean that they got in a batch, shipped them out and then are waiting for the next batch. So I should probably bite the bullet and put in my order and wait. Anyone have similar experiences? Thanks!

[EVC]

and I might be compelled to unscrew it

 

Is the screw fixed by a nut? You could use a butterfly nut. Buy some spare nuts and bolts, BTW.

[Mr -G-]

 

... the one thing I'm not sure of is how the mic stand attachment makes it potentially more awkward to tote around and put in my car, or put in a bag. It sticks out quite a bit (might not be evident from the pic, it's kind of coming right at the camera) and I might be compelled to unscrew it--and if I have to do that, I might just bring a mic stand.

Just an idea: can you just unscrew it and re-insert it at 90 degrees for transportation, so at least the long part is parallel to the stand?

[Stokely]

In response to both posts above, it has a hand-tightened nut on it (easier even than a butterfly nut) but also a washer, and while it's not "hard" to put on, it definitely takes both hands and making sure the adapter is flush with the main stand. I could easily see myself dropping the nut, bolt or washer on a dark stage and having a time finding it. I could of course put the washer and nut back on the bolt after removing the attachment so at least they'd be on there.

 

I'm not sure how I'd attach it any differently--the adapter is like a lincoln log, it has a notch going over the main stand bar, which has holes all along it for the bolt to go through. The 2nd piece (vertical mic attachment) also only fits on way into a socket.

 

I'll try it out first leaving it attached, my main worry leaving it attached is actually breaking off/bending the attachment if I set it down on the wrong side.

 

And indeed, buying spares while I still have the originals is a great idea!

[WesG]

Wow...I was really hoping this problem had finally been solved.

 

I have a 18880 and am not a fan of its durability. Lost screws have surprised me at my destination three times now. I'm using a lowly X-stand most most of the time these days for single-board gigs. Single braced, the clamp style, without a pin. I have a Yorkville table top stand that is pretty good, but big and heavy. I tend to use that one when I am providing for a rental....I want the customer to have something rock-solid.

 

I need to find a small-footprint double decker, though, that can take a 50 lbs RD800 on the top tier. My usual stand for that board is a Hammond A100, but I'd like to be able to put it on top of my Electro 5D instead. Ideally, a triple-decker that would let me throw my VR09 in the middle so that I can have a two-manual organ.

 

Have any of you tried the Apex AX-48 Pro Plus? The mic stand attachment will be a nice bonus. I think Dan Long used to have something like this one in his profile pic?

 

I have an old Quick-Lok column stand that weighs 7,000 lbs. It almost works. I had to build a platform for my expression pedal because the feet were in the way. It also sags, but I shimmed the sag out of it with a couple of 10d nails. And it's a royal pain to carry without hitting stuff. I hate it.

[Stokely]

First gig report for the Omega pro is positive. The mic stand adapter makes it a bit more awkward to load (I put the stand on my front seat) and carry through doors but not a deal-breaker. It's easier than my 2-tier Z though not by too much.

 

My boom is always in my bag so no matter which stand I bring (spider pro or this) it works with it.

 

I'm a bit slow in setting the height on the legs but that will improve in time.

 

Having my single keyboard up high (-er than an x-stand can get) with nothing in front of me (column stands) was pretty nice. It has a nice sparse yet industrial look and feel with the heavy construction that I really like.

 

I'm debating whether to try the 2nd tier or not, as I mentioned I do have the spider.

[MathOfInsects]

First gig report for the Omega pro is positive. The mic stand adapter makes it a bit more awkward to load (I put the stand on my front seat) and carry through doors but not a deal-breaker.

 

One of the reasons I pulled the trigger on this stand when I did is how cool the modular attachments look. But every single one of them is ridiculously oversized IMO. Here in SoCal I could probably rent out the laptop holder as a granny unit for $3200/month.

 

Also, regarding the butterfly nut option for the 18880, people keep saying that like there isn't a whole layer of the earth just made up of errant butterfly nuts. It goes, Upper Mantle > Lithosphere > Crust > Butterfly Nuts. They are easy to use because of how simple it is to spin them. Until you get to the end of the bolt, and then you BETTER NOT SPIN THEM. You have to go micrometer by micrometer or else the little turds fly off like bottle rockets as soon as they taste freedom. And they are not so fond of being impaled on the way back down either. Probably a third of the Butterfly Nut layer of the earth got there by making a final leap to freedom while some well-meaning sucker tried to line up the probe correctly.

 

 

Fancy German Stands. Buy Them Once, Continue Assembling Them Forever. TM

[AnotherScott]

I have a 18880 and am not a fan of its durability. Lost screws have surprised me at my destination three times now.

I don't remember there being any screws on the thing per se... Which pieces are you talking about? The knobs that lock the scissors? (It is important, after you loosen them to collapse the stand, that you relock them in the closed position for transport.)

 

 

Also, regarding the butterfly nut option for the 18880, people keep saying that like there isn't a whole layer of the earth just made up of errant butterfly nuts.

The butterfly option was mentioned, not in the context of the 18880, but rather the Omega mic attachment. Nicely, K&M themselves use big round knobs rather than butterflys. Not entirely unlosable (again, I assume that's what WesG is probably talking about), but a whole lot harder to lose than a butterfly. The butterfly, though, is one of the nuisance bits about the Standtastic.

 

Would you like fries with that?

[Joe Muscara]

I keep peeking in this thread, seeing comments like those of Josh's, and thinking we all probably have the experience and know how to design and manufacture (OBDave made the drawbar unit for Nords that he sold for years) a stand that meets all our requirements, but then I think we'll end up with something like this and I say to myself, "nevermind."

 

[Bobadohshe]

Here in SoCal I could probably rent out the laptop holder as a granny unit for $3200/month.

[DJkeys]

Just did a rehearsal, first time using the 18880 and 18881. I should have bought this a long time ago. Fits in my back seat, weighs less than 10 pounds. No case needed. Total setup + teardown time, less than 1 minute. Absolutely worth the 90 minutes I spent working on it. I actually might buy another. Best stand for transport EVER!!

 

-dj

[AnotherScott]

Just did a rehearsal, first time using the 18880 and 18881. I should have bought this a long time ago. Fits in my back seat, weighs less than 10 pounds. No case needed. Total setup + teardown time, less than 1 minute. Absolutely worth the 90 minutes I spent working on it. I actually might buy another. Best stand for transport EVER!!

Well, that's one solution for someone who likes the stand but needs to easily alternate between different heights... buy multiple! ;-) At least the second is cheaper because you can use the same 2nd-tier parts...

[AnotherScott]

Crumar posted this photo of a forthcoming accessory for the Crumar Seven...

 

allowing a setup like the one pictured here.

 

 

Nice old school way of stacking keyboards!

[RichieP_MechE]

I keep peeking in this thread, seeing comments like those of Josh's, and thinking we all probably have the experience and know how to design and manufacture (OBDave made the drawbar unit for Nords that he sold for years) a stand that meets all our requirements, but then I think we'll end up with something like this and I say to myself, "nevermind."

 

As a person who designs mechanical things for a living, I have been trying to design a perfect keyboard stand just for me and have yet to come up with something that satisfies just my needs; no matter what, something ends up being compromised - stability, portability, complexity, and so on.

[MathOfInsects]

As a person who designs mechanical things for a living, I have been trying to design a perfect keyboard stand just for me and have yet to come up with something that satisfies just my needs; no matter what, something ends up being compromised - stability, portability, complexity, and so on.

 

I have it. I cracked it. At a gig over the summer, the answer became clear to me. (I'm not kidding.) I've spent years threatening to make my own stand, and working on designs in my head, but something just "happened" at a gig that solved it. I refine it in my head all the time, but if you design things for real, and might be someone who could fabricate a test model, I'd love to talk to you.