KURZWEIL changes

[cjogo]

We have 3 KURZs in the studio -- and mainly looking for IMPROVED solo Orchestral samples ----------- Are we going to hear a big difference from a K2600 /K2vx --moving up to a Kurzweil PC3-7 or the K2700 ??

 

thanks

[AnotherScott]

I would say yes, since your boards pre-date the updated orchestral sounds (especially strings) that were introduced with the optional Orchestral ROM for the PC2 series, and the updated horns that were introduced with the optional Kore64 ROM for the PC3 series, and the update orchestral percussion that was introduced with the Forte... all of which are included (at least to some extent) in the newer boards.

[Tom Williams]

I purchased my first Kurzweil -- a K2500 rack unit -- for the pianos and strings. I wasn't disappointed. Each subsequent upgrade (2600, PC3, and then PC4-7) has been even better. PC4 pianos in particular are _much_ more mature than the original PC3. (Dunno much about 3A or 3K.)

 

For my money, the jump to the PC3 strings was the most significant. Multiple articulations -- in addition to the still quite useful triple-strike, you get pizzicato (of course), tremolo, spiccato (on PC4), adagio, legato, "fast", Agresso, Marcato, "Lead" -- and all of those in both full sections (for each instrument) and divisi, for a little less chorusing and greater definition. Heck, they even differentiate between 1st and 2nd violins.

 

The orchestral woodwinds from K2600 to PC3 (pretty much same in PC4) are also enhanced, typically with three or more playing styles for each of flute, clarinet, oboe, english horn, bassoon, and horn (honorary woodwind); brasses are also well represented, and I haven't even mentioned "pop" instruments.

[Lady Gaia]

PC4 pianos in particular are _much_ more mature than the original PC3. (Dunno much about 3A or 3K.)

 

A new set of samples for the Kurzweil Forte brought significant improvements to the PC4 and K2700. According to Kurzweil the new samples for the Forte included Classic Keys (Piano, Wurlitzer, Clav), Harpsichord, Orchestral Percussion, Celeste, Glockenspiel, Chimes, Bells and Crotales. They're present in their full splendor on the Forte 7 and 8's 16GB ROM and are trimmed down somewhat for the more recent boards.

[timwat]

In the hands of the right player, even the venerable K2500 with the orchestral ROM yields admirable results. Of course, Michael Whittaker is one of the right players:

 

[video:youtube]

[cjogo]

Thanks so kindly >> for coming to my aid ...Not keyboardist per se -- but, I need quality solo samples for producing

 

Will look for the PC3 7 series --- sell off a few KURZ this month

[cjogo]

What is the KORE 64 ?? Ram storage for samples ?

[Delaware Dave]

https://kurzweil.com/kore64/

What is the KORE 64 ?? Ram storage for samples ?

 

https://kurzweil.com/kore64/

[AnotherScott]

Thanks so kindly >> for coming to my aid ...Not keyboardist per se -- but, I need quality solo samples for producing

For that scenario, I'd be inclined to look for software instruments. And maybe an MPE controller.

[pawelsz]

I've got a question. Is this video real or fake?

[AnotherScott]

I've got a question. Is this video real or fake?

I assume it's real. But here's what I just posted there:

 

"In general, newer Kurz models do include sample sets from earlier models, so I would not be surprised to find a sound in a new model that sounds like a sound in an old model. (In fact, that sample compatibility is why you can often load programs from older models into newer ones.) But to the extent these do sound similar but not quite identical, even if these two patches do use the same samples, there are reasons they could sound different. You disabled effects, but did you check to see if the EQ settings were the same? Also, I'm guessing you played each of these two sounds from their own keyboards, right? Sound will vary with velocity, and so can easily play differently from the SP6 hammer action vs. the K2600 semi-weighted. So besides checking the EQ, to see how similar or different these sounds really are, you could try running MIDI cables and see how each sound sounds when triggered from the keys of the other board. Or, send the same MIDI file to both."

[Mr -G-]

They do not sound identical to me either.

[Dave Weiser]

I've got a question. Is this video real or fake?

 

It's not fake, but it's not overly honest in my opinion.

 

Some context: Here's anther comparison with the newer Kurz strings (Forte/SP6/PC4/K27) vs the same patch on the K2661. I've spent a lot of time with these samples - 13 years at Kurz R&D and now 10 years working on theater shows...I can safely say that the new stuff is far better, with a broader and deeper selection of higher quality samples. Still not as nice as GB sized libraries, but there's no comparison. The Sp6 stage piano featured in the youtube video is a stage piano with just a handful of string patches. The K27 has hundreds. (The patch I used exists in all new Kurz models.)

Here's my comparison video: https://www.facebook.com/weisersound/videos/257585596419599/

[cjogo]

Yes , there is a difference ~! -- just trying to see whats better for the studio -- I have PC3 with KORE on watch --- that might be all we need -- I am not a keyboardist per se == two finger kind of player . But lived with one or two, since the late 70's .. Thanks again for steering me in the new direction ...

 

DAVE : is that French wiz JEANE (sp) still with Kurzweil ? He helped us so much back in the 90's

[dalpozlead]

how the heck I didn't know about this guy... tks so much for sharing! I'll check all his videos on YT!

In the hands of the right player, even the venerable K2500 with the orchestral ROM yields admirable results. Of course, Michael Whittaker is one of the right players:

 

[video:youtube]

 

how the heck I didn't know about this guy... tks so much for sharing! I'll check all his videos on YT!

[Dave Weiser]

Yes , there is a difference ~! -- just trying to see whats better for the studio -- I have PC3 with KORE on watch --- that might be all we need -- I am not a keyboardist per se == two finger kind of player . But lived with one or two, since the late 70's .. Thanks again for steering me in the new direction ...

 

DAVE : is that French wiz JEANE (sp) still with Kurzweil ? He helped us so much back in the 90's

 

Yes Jean is still with Kurz, he's one of my favorite people in the world!

[cjogo]

Yes , there is a difference ~! -- just trying to see whats better for the studio -- I have PC3 with KORE on watch --- that might be all we need -- I am not a keyboardist per se == two finger kind of player . But lived with one or two, since the late 70's .. Thanks again for steering me in the new direction ...

 

DAVE : is that French wiz JEANE (sp) still with Kurzweil ? He helped us so much back in the 90's

 

Yes Jean is still with Kurz, he's one of my favorite people in the world!

 

He made our transition to Kurzweil machines so rewarding -- even the silliest questions -- he had a smoother path to take = for the solution & made us stay on board for 30 + years

[cjogo]

So again :: main differences from the Kurzweil PC3 ( with KORE ) and the later PC 4 ?/ Same quality solo orchestral samples ??

[AnotherScott]

So again :: main differences from the Kurzweil PC3 ( with KORE ) and the later PC 4 ?/ Same quality solo orchestral samples ??

If you're talking only about sonic qualities and not other features, AFAIK, the only sample sets that are in the PC4 that were not on the PC3+Kore are the ones that were derived from the Forte, and the only orchestral sounds there were orchestral percussion (and I'm not even sure whether or not any of those made it into the PC4).

 

That said, there are still other differences in sonic capabilities:

... the ability to load 2 GB of custom samples (supporting more in the way of possible third-party additions, for example), vs 0 on PC3, 128 mb on PC3K

... although not samples, the PC4 also has a complete 6-operator FM engine which is another source of different sounds

... there are 32 total effects units availabe instead of 16, so you can combine more sounds without losing their individual effects characters

[cjogo]

Sounds good SCOTT -- I don't really tweak -- or add 3rd party -- just want to add orchestral /etc to our clients projects -- like we have since the 80's

[Tom Williams]

PC4 pianos in particular are _much_ more mature than the original PC3. (Dunno much about 3A or 3K.)

 

A new set of samples for the Kurzweil Forte brought significant improvements to the PC4 and K2700. According to Kurzweil the new samples for the Forte included Classic Keys (Piano, Wurlitzer, Clav), Harpsichord, Orchestral Percussion, Celeste, Glockenspiel, Chimes, Bells and Crotales. They're present in their full splendor on the Forte 7 and 8's 16GB ROM and are trimmed down somewhat for the more recent boards.

All true, but the big gains IMO are string resonance, better damper simulation, and (finally!) correct implementation of the sostenuto pedal.

[Mighty Motif Max]

PC4 pianos in particular are _much_ more mature than the original PC3. (Dunno much about 3A or 3K.)

 

A new set of samples for the Kurzweil Forte brought significant improvements to the PC4 and K2700. According to Kurzweil the new samples for the Forte included Classic Keys (Piano, Wurlitzer, Clav), Harpsichord, Orchestral Percussion, Celeste, Glockenspiel, Chimes, Bells and Crotales. They're present in their full splendor on the Forte 7 and 8's 16GB ROM and are trimmed down somewhat for the more recent boards.

All true, but the big gains IMO are string resonance, better damper simulation, and (finally!) correct implementation of the sostenuto pedal.

 

I'd add the Yamaha 7' sample to that list as well.

[Dave Weiser]

So again :: main differences from the Kurzweil PC3 ( with KORE ) and the later PC 4 ?/ Same quality solo orchestral samples ??

 

Correct - same samples from PC3, with solo and section strings. I believe the newer boards do have some additional new string and orchestral programs not found in the PC3.

 

Whichever board you go with, feel free to shoot me a message when you get it, and I'll send you my custom sound file. I've got a few very useful string programs based on the stuff I use on Broadway.

weiserdav@gmail.com

[cjogo]

Thanks DAVE --- Looking at the PC3 with KORE -- when its in the studio -- will contact you for those custom file sounds ~!! Really appreciate it ~!

[Stokely]

I will do the same regarding those patches, my PC4 was back-ordered but should be shipping in a couple days.

 

Rather than start a new thread--any known, good power supplies for it? I've learned the hard lesson to always have a backup for these darn wall warts. Someone from another thread linked one but it was not in stock.

 

I believe this one should work: Belker power supply, anyone notice any reason why it wouldn't?

 

has 15V, more than enough amperage, center positive...

 

(Also, I think I prefer the non-line-lump type in this case because I'm probably going to have this and my modx power supply pre-connected to a power extension cord...just velcro the two warts to each side of it.)

 

Someone here showed off a fancy power dealio that can work with multiple devices of different power needs, it was pretty expensive. Sure looked pretty compact and handy though.

[bfields]

I've been using https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B083LX7CHV/ (based on a Dave Weiser post recommending it, if I recall correctly).

[pawelsz]

I've got a question. Is this video real or fake?

 

It's not fake, but it's not overly honest in my opinion.

 

Some context: Here's anther comparison with the newer Kurz strings (Forte/SP6/PC4/K27) vs the same patch on the K2661. I've spent a lot of time with these samples - 13 years at Kurz R&D and now 10 years working on theater shows...I can safely say that the new stuff is far better, with a broader and deeper selection of higher quality samples. Still not as nice as GB sized libraries, but there's no comparison. The Sp6 stage piano featured in the youtube video is a stage piano with just a handful of string patches. The K27 has hundreds. (The patch I used exists in all new Kurz models.)

Here's my comparison video: https://www.facebook.com/weisersound/videos/257585596419599/

 

Oh, Dave, I wasn't even imagining that posting this video will encourage you to record something in reply. Thank you very much for the effort. I just found that video on YouTube and was curious about comments from forum members about this.

New instruments must have better samples and new possibilities added. I think the point of YouTube video was to compare output signal quality only. So I am not sure that can be made by playing different samples. Even in the video the patches names are different, despite sounding close. But there are some factors Scott mentioned that could ruin the whole experiment:

 

I've got a question. Is this video real or fake?

I assume it's real. But here's what I just posted there:

 

"In general, newer Kurz models do include sample sets from earlier models, so I would not be surprised to find a sound in a new model that sounds like a sound in an old model. (In fact, that sample compatibility is why you can often load programs from older models into newer ones.) But to the extent these do sound similar but not quite identical, even if these two patches do use the same samples, there are reasons they could sound different. You disabled effects, but did you check to see if the EQ settings were the same? Also, I'm guessing you played each of these two sounds from their own keyboards, right? Sound will vary with velocity, and so can easily play differently from the SP6 hammer action vs. the K2600 semi-weighted. So besides checking the EQ, to see how similar or different these sounds really are, you could try running MIDI cables and see how each sound sounds when triggered from the keys of the other board. Or, send the same MIDI file to both."

 

It would be excellent to put exactly same Pachelbel Strings patch into SP6 or PC4, then play exactly same MIDI data from both boards K2661/2660/2660X and SP6/PC4, record it from outputs in same way. To compare only the final output signal quality and to definitely finish all discussions and doubts. I don't know what that guy from YouTube made to the sound. He could even intentionally adjust sound after recording, I don't know.

Here we have a demo from Poland (by muzykuj.com). which compares current generation with something older - PC4 vs PC3, and to my ears newer sounds are just better, more open sounding, with more details.

that video looks much more honest to me. He told in the video that he's not triggering sounds from same keybed, to make viewers more aware of it, but I think he did his best to play both boards with same velocity.

 

I am not trolling anyone.

[Stokely]

I've been using https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B083LX7CHV/ (based on a Dave Weiser post recommending it, if I recall correctly).

 

Yeah, darn it I had that one in my cart, but now it won't arrive until Jan 2022...I guess I can risk having just one for a month or so

[Dave Weiser]

I've got a question. Is this video real or fake?

 

It's not fake, but it's not overly honest in my opinion.

 

Some context: Here's anther comparison with the newer Kurz strings (Forte/SP6/PC4/K27) vs the same patch on the K2661. I've spent a lot of time with these samples - 13 years at Kurz R&D and now 10 years working on theater shows...I can safely say that the new stuff is far better, with a broader and deeper selection of higher quality samples. Still not as nice as GB sized libraries, but there's no comparison. The Sp6 stage piano featured in the youtube video is a stage piano with just a handful of string patches. The K27 has hundreds. (The patch I used exists in all new Kurz models.)

Here's my comparison video: https://www.facebook.com/weisersound/videos/257585596419599/

 

Oh, Dave, I wasn't even imagining that posting this video will encourage you to record something in reply. Thank you very much for the effort. I just found that video on YouTube and was curious about comments from forum members about this.

New instruments must have better samples and new possibilities added. I think the point of YouTube video was to compare output signal quality only. So I am not sure that can be made by playing different samples. Even in the video the patches names are different, despite sounding close. But there are some factors Scott mentioned that could ruin the whole experiment:

 

I've got a question. Is this video real or fake?

I assume it's real. But here's what I just posted there:

 

"In general, newer Kurz models do include sample sets from earlier models, so I would not be surprised to find a sound in a new model that sounds like a sound in an old model. (In fact, that sample compatibility is why you can often load programs from older models into newer ones.) But to the extent these do sound similar but not quite identical, even if these two patches do use the same samples, there are reasons they could sound different. You disabled effects, but did you check to see if the EQ settings were the same? Also, I'm guessing you played each of these two sounds from their own keyboards, right? Sound will vary with velocity, and so can easily play differently from the SP6 hammer action vs. the K2600 semi-weighted. So besides checking the EQ, to see how similar or different these sounds really are, you could try running MIDI cables and see how each sound sounds when triggered from the keys of the other board. Or, send the same MIDI file to both."

 

It would be excellent to put exactly same Pachelbel Strings patch into SP6 or PC4, then play exactly same MIDI data from both boards K2661/2660/2660X and SP6/PC4, record it from outputs in same way. To compare only the final output signal quality and to definitely finish all discussions and doubts. I don't know what that guy from YouTube made to the sound. He could even intentionally adjust sound after recording, I don't know.

Here we have a demo from Poland (by muzykuj.com). which compares current generation with something older - PC4 vs PC3, and to my ears newer sounds are just better, more open sounding, with more details.

that video looks much more honest to me. He told in the video that he's not triggering sounds from same keybed, to make viewers more aware of it, but I think he did his best to play both boards with same velocity.

 

I am not trolling anyone.

 

 

I hear you man, and you make some good points. I absolutely don't think you're trolling anyone. But there is a bit of context/background that you guys might not have re the Youtube video:

 

The guy who made the video was a bit of a troll on the Kurzweil FB groups, and sadly it was a very rare instance of a group member being cordially invited to leave due to horrendous manners and tendency to pick fights. You can see for yourself in the Youtube description, where he wrote: "To me the K2600 is far superior and unfortunately it is the last REAL Kurzweil instrument."

 

I made my videos over a year ago in response to this video being posted on Kurz FB groups, mostly as a way of showing that comparisons of this nature, especially when framed in an adversarial way, are kind of meaningless.

 

Several of us on the FB groups tried to reach out and work with him, I sent him my custom sounds, we tried to engage and assist. I'm sorry to say the guy seemed to be impervious to both kindness and facts, and our efforts were met with the online equivalent of a

.

[pawelsz]

 

I hear you man, and you make some good points. I absolutely don't think you're trolling anyone. But there is a bit of context/background that you guys might not have re the Youtube video:

 

The guy who made the video was a bit of a troll on the Kurzweil FB groups, and sadly it was a very rare instance of a group member being cordially invited to leave due to horrendous manners and tendency to pick fights. You can see for yourself in the Youtube description, where he wrote: "To me the K2600 is far superior and unfortunately it is the last REAL Kurzweil instrument."

 

I made my videos over a year ago in response to this video being posted on Kurz FB groups, mostly as a way of showing that comparisons of this nature, especially when framed in an adversarial way, are kind of meaningless.

 

Several of us on the FB groups tried to reach out and work with him, I sent him my custom sounds, we tried to engage and assist. I'm sorry to say the guy seemed to be impervious to both kindness and facts, and our efforts were met with the online equivalent of a

.

 

That's perfectly clear to me now.

I don't have any Kurzweil instrument, but have seriously considered SP6, which I played in music store for quite a while and couldn't stop and go away . I like the simple, user-friendly interface very much. There are some clever and convenient functions rare in this price range like advanced controller assignments, layering a layer, spliting a layer or a favourite program for each category. Now, 76-key versions of SP6 and PC4 are even more tempting, but at the moment I just do not need such instrument in my setup. Kurzweil sounds quite unique and, for me, a bit raw, at least presets. May not be the most impressive for playing e.g. solo piano recital, but should work just excellent in the mix with other instruments in band. I think someday I'll buy one.

Keep doing good stuff and supporting our musical society.

Regards