Bass amp for Hammond Clone?

[ImproKeys]

Dear forum members,

I would appreciate some opinions or advice: I am playing organ (Crumar Mojo Classic) in a 4 piece soul / funk / jazz band, where I also play left hand bass. I need to strengthen the bass sound. By that I don't mean the sound itself; I tweaked the Mojo to my liking. But my amplification lacks bottom end. On rehearsals I use my Adam studio monitors, on small gigs I use a single Bose L1 compact.

I would like to avoid to haul around a subwoofer (also a space issue). On some videos I recently saw, Frank Montis used a Markbass 121 bass amp in combination with his Leslie and a Hammond XK5. I think the XK 5 has a dedicated bass pedals out, which my Mojo is lacking.

 

Are there any experiences how to utilize a bass amp (and even which one?) in a setup like mine?

 

Thanks a lot!

[Delaware Dave]

My bass player used a Peavey head and 4 x10 cabinet for several years. It was heavy so this past year he purchased a MarkBass amp combo. distinctly different sound; the peavey had more bottom end and the markbass is punchier (more of an upper bass sound rather than lower bass). Personally, I would take your Mojo to a music store and try different cabinets and find one to your liking; not sure that the MarkBass is the one for the lower sound that you are trying to achieve.

[KuruPrionz]

Be sure to try a Fender Rumble 100. It looks like a cheap practice amp but it may surprise you. It did me. Our bassist uses one and it sounds amazing for the size and price. Very lightweight as well.

 

He also uses a small Ampeg rig, a compact 2-10" cabinet and a little head with lots of watts, another great option. More expensive, still very light weight and a small foot print on the floor. It sounds great too.

I can ask him the model of the amp and the speaker, it's too early right now.

[dazzjazz]

I"m always baffled when clonewheelers need more bass, as my experience is often the opposite. I use 2 Yamaha DXR10s, stacked. There is a ton of bass, and sometimes I have to cut bass, depending on the room. I"d say it issue is the Bose and seriously doubt you need a dedicated bass amp.

 

There was a time I was considering hauling a sub, but this was for more clarity in my chords, not more bass.

 

Sure I play jazz organ but that involves plenty of funk/boogaloo etc and I always have plenty of bass. Try some decent powered monitors like the Yamaha"sâ¦QSCs are also good but tend to be too bright to me.

 

Good luck with it.

[ImproKeys]

Thank you for your recommendations!

 

Well, I already own the Bose, which is very useful to me in different situations. So I thought an additional bass amp would be a more flexible and much cheaper option than buying two new PA speakers. Thank you.

[dazzjazz]

No problem. The bass amp might very well be a solution, but you might run into balance issues.

I guess a decent sound check would help.

 

Good luck.

[ImproKeys]

I use 2 Yamaha DXR10s, stacked.

 

Just to clarify: you put these two Yamahas on top of each other? In which angle?

 

Thanks!

[Delaware Dave]

I use 2 Yamaha DXR10s, stacked.

 

Just to clarify: you put these two Yamahas on top of each other? In which angle?

 

Thanks!

and do you run the bass rotor through one and the rotating horn through the other?

[Docbop]

Get an Ampeg SVT and put roller skates on the bottom so your roadie can rotate the speaker cab all night.

[dazzjazz]

Yes, I put one on top of the other, both facing the same way. It"s very stable, except on flimsy outdoor stages that flex!

One side of the stereo output is fed to each - i.e. left output to top, right output to bottom. Wherever possible, I try to have them stacked directly behind me, like I"d do with a real Leslie.

 

Of course it"s not the same sonic footprint in terms of where the bass is coming from versus the treble, but it"s actually pretty musical. It has the added benefit of 'broadcasting" to the audience - something that putting them on the floor doesn"t do.

[rockinroller]

I ran that setup for years: Clonewheel and synth through one amp and the bass in my LH through a separate amp. I had good luck with GK (Gallien Krueger) combo bass amps with twin 10's and a tweeter. Reasonably light weight and very punchy. The only issue I had was that I continued to blow the tweeter due to the highs that were going through the amp from the keyboard. I discovered powered speakers and the rest is history, and I have not looked back. Despite the amount of bass I kick through my set up (two Alto TS312's), the clarity and separation between the parts is amazing. I never go through the PA system (Rock power trio) and have never been short of volume to fill rooms typically accommodating 60-200 people and outdoor events.

[rockinroller]

I ran that setup for years: Clonewheel and synth through one amp and the bass in my LH through a separate amp. I had good luck with GK (Gallien Krueger) combo bass amps with twin 10's and a tweeter. Reasonably light weight and very punchy. The only issue I had was that I continued to blow the tweeter due to the highs that were going through the amp from the keyboard. I discovered powered speakers and the rest is history, and I have not looked back. Despite the amount of bass I kick through my set up (two Alto TS312's), the clarity and separation between the parts is amazing. I never go through the PA system (Rock power trio) and have never been short of volume to fill rooms typically accommodating 60-200 people and outdoor events.

[drawback]

I had a GK MB150S112 for quite awhile for dedicated LHB and extra reinforcement. They're discontinued but not too hard to find used.

[ImproKeys]

I had a GK MB150S112 for quite awhile for dedicated LHB and extra reinforcement. They're discontinued but not too hard to find used.

 

May I ask how you connected that setup? My Mojo only has one stereo output.

[ewall08530]

Thank you for your recommendations!

 

Well, I already own the Bose, which is very useful to me in different situations. So I thought an additional bass amp would be a more flexible and much cheaper option than buying two new PA speakers. Thank you.

 

I"m inclined to agree with dazzjazz. It may be time to consider an upgrade to a Pro 8. or Pro 16. I say that because I had the opportunity to play a friends L1 when I was considering buying Bose. I opted for the Pro 8 because of the larger sub, built in Bluetooth and the knowledge I"d be doing duo gigs with left hand bass.

It"s still fairly light and portable but tons more low end. You may find a dedicated bass amp you like and don"t mind moving the extra piece but check out this option.

[cphollis]

@improkeys -- going back a bit, you said you were playing your Mojo through a Bose L1 Compact? I have one of those, so might I offer an opinion? Simply put: ouch!

 

While it's true that a good clonewheel will sound good through just about anything (bass amp, guitar amp, etc.) that particular Bose model is more about pretty wallpaper gigs vs having some b@lls and grit. The only thing I'd use it for is when I'm playing piano quietly behind vocalists or similar. So, my starting position would be that just about anything would sound better than what you're using. Of course, the Bose L1 Compact is small and very light -- and all of the other alternatives will definitely weigh more.

 

So, if it were me, I'd completely ditch the Bose unit you're using, and sell it to someone with a pretty voice who plays in coffee shops. Lots of choices to move up in sound, depending on money, weight and other factors. For smaller gigs with pronounced organ, I'll use either a CPS SSv3 (blues and more gritty material, has great natural compression) or a pair of QSC K8.2s behind me (cleaner sounding, organ + other instruments) and it's wonderful all night long, especially w/stereo leslie. A good bass amp will work, as will bigger guitar amps, but won't be in stereo so you'll have to figure out how to get a good mono signal.

 

Buying used is preferred these days. A used CPS is about $400-500, a pair of used K8.2s maybe $1000-$1200. Bass response is limited to about 100 Hz or so, so if you're kicking pedals or similar, you'll want to add a small sub, maybe $300-400?

[AnotherScott]

Do I understand correctly that the LH bass you play is on the Mojo, and that that's all you're putting through the Bose (i.e. you only have the one keyboard/sound source, no separate bass source, no vocal mic, etc.)?

 

While cphollis' point about the L1 Compact is well taken, you're using it now and it sounds like you're okay with it except for needing more bottom. I wonder if adding a Bose Sub1 might be the way to go. Not too terrible in price or weight ($800 and 36 lbs), and it is a sub with a high pass out, which (compared to adding a bass amp) should make it easier to keep in balance with your L1, as well as help the L1 itself do a better job by keeping the deep bass out of it.

 

Even if you ultimately decided to take cphollis' advice and replace the L1 with a Spacestation or whatever, as he said, you still might want to add something for more bottom if you're doing LHB... his suggestion also included the possibility of adding a small sub... so buying the Sub1 could easily complement rather than be redundant with any other change you might end up making. (The price differential in our conversation about this really coming from the fact that he was talking about used gear and I'm talking about new... but that's its own consideration.)

[Delaware Dave]

i can walk hammond bass for days with this speaker.....

 

https://www.amazon.com/Electro-Voice-ELX112P-Two-Way-Powered-Loudspeaker/dp/B004M8GR3U

[drawback]

I had a GK MB150S112 for quite awhile for dedicated LHB and extra reinforcement. They're discontinued but not too hard to find used.

 

May I ask how you connected that setup? My Mojo only has one stereo output.

 

As others have used their bass amps - separate keys for LHB. But when using it for low end reinforcement I sent the SSv3 sub output to it. I was only offering a lightweight, portable bass amp that punches above its size. Sorry if my post was confusing

[ImproKeys]

Thank you all very much. I will keep the Bose, it serves me well in various situations. Unfortunately, I'm not the one with the pretty voice⦠;-)

Last night I tried an older DB technologies Opera active box with a 12 loudspeaker. That really gave a decent sound; not really pristine⦠but I assume that"s not how a Hammond sounds anyway?

So I will get to my brothers and try their 15 active PA speakers.

Maybe I will be happy like Delaware Dave.

Thanks, drawback, for coming back to me. I do like the GK Bass amps.

 

Next task on my list: how do I cope with the less bassy sound of the newly arrived Neo Vent 2, compared to the Mojo Sim⦠:-)

[stoken6]

I wonder if adding a Bose Sub1 might be the way to go. Not too terrible in price or weight ($800 and 36 lbs), and it is a sub with a high pass out, which (compared to adding a bass amp) should make it easier to keep in balance with your L1, as well as help the L1 itself do a better job by keeping the deep bass out of it.

 

Even if you ultimately decided to take cphollis' advice and replace the L1 with a Spacestation or whatever, as he said, you still might want to add something for more bottom if you're doing LHB... his suggestion also included the possibility of adding a small sub... so buying the Sub1 could easily complement rather than be redundant with any other change you might end up making.

The Sub1 is the companion module to the L1 columns, isn't it? I remember posts here some years ago that explained that Bose used sixth-order subs - great efficiency but limited bandwidth (the "one-note bass" thing).

 

EDIT: Found it - Post 2893537 from the sorely missed J. Dan.

Bose uses a 6th order Bandpass design. In essence, it limits both the high and low end response and puts that energy into one big huge hump in the middle. They actually get GAIN from the enclosure so that in the midband, the output is higher than what the drivers themselves would output. It seems impressive at first to get such a large output from small drivers in a small box, until you realize that it's all focused over a narrow band and in fact is a bit high compared to most subs. They really don't actually go that deep and have nothing at all close to a flat response. All boom

 

I might recommend a "more conventional" subwoofer with a high-pass output into your L1 - something like EV's ELX200-12SP (just picking something in the same ballpark price/weight - many other cheaper/pricier/lighter/heavier options available).

 

Cheers, Mike.

[ImproKeys]

Stoken6, thank you very much. Listening to the L1, this explanation seems very precise! That also explains why I do like the active PA speaker more (esp for the organ sound).

[stoken6]

Do try active PA speakers with 12in or 15in speakers to see what you like.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[ImproKeys]

I will!

[AnotherScott]

The Sub1 is the companion module to the L1 columns, isn't it?

It's newer, a companion to the L1 Pro, and not something that was around when J.Dan did that post in 2017. Whether it has the same bandpass design, I couldn't say. But it's pretty different in general. I believe that earlier bass modules (B1 or B2) were not designed to be used with anything but a Bose column (and were only called "bass speaker" or "bass module," not subwoofer), but this newer one is actually marketed as s subwoofer, and sold for use with any system, Bose or not.

 

But, yes, that EV looks nice, though creeping up in weight. (Based on the OP, I was thinking only of something that wouldn't necessarily be bigger/heavier than the kind of bass amps he was talking about.) Another "lightweight" sub looks to be the Yorkville EXM-MOBILE-SUB.

[Lou_NC]

I see a number of proponents advocating 2x relatively large (12"+ woofer) active PA speakers for a clonewheel amp solution with good bass response. Is there any real advantage to that setup vs. a SSv3 and a subwoofer? That is the direction I'm headed in and will probably end up with by the holidays.

 

I would have to say that having 2 PA's would possibly provide a lttle more versatility in re-use of the PA speakers for other purposes, and perhaps resale *might* be higher for 2x PA's vs. the SSv3 and sub. But for someone who only wants a clonewheel solution with good bass response, and isn't worried about resale, I'm having trouble seeing any major advantage to 2x PA vs. SSv3/Sub. Am I missing something else?

 

Thanks,

Lou

[elif]

Next task on my list: how do I cope with the less bassy sound of the newly arrived Neo Vent 2, compared to the Mojo Sim⦠:-)

Your additon of the Vent has the potential to improve your bass capability. It allows you to tap off the signal into the Vent and drive a bass amp with it directly. An easy way would be to run the Mojo in mono, send L to the Vent and R to a bass amp. Ideally you'd wanto put a low-pass filter in front of the bass amp to keep the Leslie horn signal out of it, though I'd probably start with tone controls at first. Otherwise, the Rolls SX21 is a small mono 24 dB/oct crossover with a variable crossover point, 50 Hz - 2.5 kHz.

[AnotherScott]

for someone who only wants a clonewheel solution with good bass response...I'm having trouble seeing any major advantage to 2x PA vs. SSv3/Sub. Am I missing something else?

I tend to agree... a Spacestation plus one of the lighter subs would probably be my choice for "portable amp strictly for clonewheel." I think the counter argument for some is that there are more placement considerations (people have complained about not being able to place it far enough away from them while they were playing to really get the effect, which needs some distance to "bloom," or of other bandmembers complaining of it being too loud because the side speaker is aimed at them), or that it can be a more to fuss with since, to get the very best out of it (at least if you're a bit OCD about these things), you may need to spend a little time with it in a given room to optimize its controls and/or placement.

 

Regardless of arguments about the pros and cons of the SpaceStation or of the OP's Bose L1 Compact, one obvious difference is that the single Bose is mono. It may have wide/even dispersion, but it will still not provide anyone with any semblance of a stereo effect, if that matters.

[cphollis]

As long as we're talking about "small subs" (I know, it's all relative), I use the little Behringer B1200D-PRO -- along with the CPS SSv3 -- when it's primarily a club-style organ gig. I could bring a pair of larger PA speakers (I have them) but I don't -- simply because the SSv3 pairs well with B3 leslie sounds. Not quite like bringing a real one, but close enough.

 

Note: the trick w/CPS SSv3 placement is simple. Use an amp stand, lay it down horizontally so that the side-firing speaker is bouncing off the floor. Voila! Perfect sound every time, even at closer distances.

 

@anotherscott was mentioning the Bose Sub1 and Sub2, these are products to keep an eye on, along with the F1 sub that mates with the 812. They are using what they call "racetrack" 10 inch drivers, which have exceptionally long excursion and thus can move a LOT of air. I recently purchased a pair of the F1 tops and subs, and fired them up in the backyard. My bandmates and I thought they sounded more like a pair of 2000w 15s than 1000w 10s -- the sound is deep and quite balanced.

 

The reason that I mention this is that the size and weight of these newer Bose subs are a fraction of what they replace. My F1 sub is 55 lbs with great carry handles vs 125 lbs with crappy handles and casters. Seriously, they sound just as good as my big boys.

 

In additional Geek News, I tried a Bose F1 812 on a stand as a "keyboard amp". It was freaking outrageous: a compact line array backed by a 12" speaker. Much larger and heavier than I would like to schlep, but goes to the adage that great PA gear also makes for great keyboard gear.

[ImproKeys]

Yes, the Bose is and stays mono (although I am still researching what the stereo RCA input does to the signal; but in Leslie context this way is unusable).

That said, I could live with mono in most of the situations.