Experienced Midi genius'

[16251]

Is there a reason why a 1993 Kawai KC20 hooked up to a Mojo 61 for lower manual would cause this:

 

Once connected I selected ch 2 on KC20 and lower manual was working except if I hold a chord on upper manual and start playing notes on lower manual, upper manual chord cuts out. More specifically, after playing two notes on lower, upper manual momentarily cuts out. Upper manual and lower manual alone work fine.

 

The Kawai was a cheap solution even though it is almost 30 years old but logically, to me, I assumed it should work.

[OB Dave]

Are the notes that cut out on the upper manual the same notes that you're playing in the lower manual?

 

Try this: hold a chord in the upper manual and slowly play a scale which passes through those notes in the lower manual. Does the upper manual note release when you release the same note in the lower manual? If so: it sounds like both upper and lower manuals are set to the same MIDI channel. Either that, or the Kawai is actually sending MIDI on the Crumar's upper MIDI channel and not the lower manual. Or maybe both manuals somehow got set to Channel 2? But from your description, it kinda sounds like the MIDI message to release the note in the lower is also releasing the upper, and a MIDI channel collision seems like the most likely explanation.

 

I don't have my Mojo 61 set up right now, but I am guessing you can set the MIDI channels for upper and lower using the Wifi web interface thing. Set them to different MIDI channels, and set the Kawai to use whatever channel you set for lower manual.

[PianoMan51]

Here"s where a MIDI Monitor would help.

[Mike Kent]

This problem takes me back many years.

 

There is a MIDI Mode called Omni, where a device will respond on every channel. I suspect your Kawai is in Omni Mode. This is often user configurable.

Then maybe the Mojo could be sending out an "All Notes Off" message when you release all keys. It's not a good MIDI implementation, IMO.

 

See if you can turn off the Omni mode on the Kawai.

 

Or put the Kawai on Channel 2 and the Mojo on Channel 3. Reason: some early MIDI devices default to Ch.1 with Omni on. Changing channels might also turn off the Omni mode.

 

Mike.

Technical Standards Board, MIDI Association

[16251]

Thanks for all the help.

[AnotherScott]

OB Dave's reply sounds like the best starting place to me.

 

SynMike, when he says he's using the Kawai as a lower manual, that presumably means he's using it to trigger the lower manual organ sound of the Mojo. He's not actually using the Kawai for its own sounds. Therefore Omni mode on the Kawai (which of course is relevant to what it receives, not what it sends) would not be an issue, nor would Mojo sending an All Notes Off. (In fact, there should not even BE a connection between the Mojo's MIDI Out and the Kawai's MIDI In for this purpose.)

[JimboKeys]

I had an old Roland piano that had that behaviour --- whenever all the notes on the keyboard are released, it sends an All Notes Off message. Sounds very much like your Kawai is doing the same thing.

 

- Jimbo

[16251]

Mojo is on ch 1. Kawai is on ch 2. Played separately everything fine. Together Kawai always cuts out Mojo. It is totally random.

 

I'm seeing this as a bust. I'll just sell the Kawai. My new ES520 ships on Monday from GC corporate. I'd keep the KC20 if I was a synth geek. It seems capable for what it is and there are stirrups for guitar strap, yippee!

[mcgoo]

As said earlier, a midi monitor would be a great tool to help figure out what's going on. Do you have a computer with midi capabilities or even an external sequencer? Striking a single note would tell you volumes. Assuming you don't have that, does the Kawai have both a patch mode and a performance mode (the former being one sound at a time and the latter being capable of multiple sounds for splitting and layering). You'd want to be in patch mode as performance mode may have the ability to transmit on multiple channels. If you were transmitting on channels 1 and 2 simultaneously, it would cause the problem you are describing.

[16251]

As said earlier, a midi monitor would be a great tool to help figure out what's going on. Do you have a computer with midi capabilities or even an external sequencer? Striking a single note would tell you volumes. Assuming you don't have that, does the Kawai have both a patch mode and a performance mode (the former being one sound at a time and the latter being capable of multiple sounds for splitting and layering). You'd want to be in patch mode as performance mode may have the ability to transmit on multiple channels. If you were transmitting on channels 1 and 2 simultaneously, it would cause the problem you are describing.

 

I'm not this midi guy. I just consider this a distraction to my Chi.

 

That being said I liked your suggestion so I went back to Mojo/Kawai and powered it up. The KC20 has either Performance mode (spilt/dual - you explain bad for what I'm trying to do,) and Compose mode. It does not have a Patch mode. I tried my available options Performance and Compose. I get the exact same issue.

 

thanks

[OB Dave]

Mojo is on ch 1. Kawai is on ch 2. Played separately everything fine. Together Kawai always cuts out Mojo. It is totally random.

This description really doesn't tell us much. Did you try the specific experiment I suggested?

[16251]

Mojo is on ch 1. Kawai is on ch 2. Played separately everything fine. Together Kawai always cuts out Mojo. It is totally random.

This description really doesn't tell us much. Did you try the specific experiment I suggested?

 

I tried playing a chord and then using lower manual play through same. It doesn't matter. I can play one note on upper manual and it will cut out after I start playing lower. I went into Mojo editor and Mojo is on channel 1

 

The idea from mcgoo seems the most plausible and unfixable. The Kawai either plays in Performance mode (muiti...) or Composer mode, which is not a Patch mode. Funny, the first thing I did when I got Kawai was look for a patch mode. I wanted to hear all the sounds, but there was only the Performance mode.

 

Let me bottom line it. Maybe a midi monitor or midi savant can make this work but I don't have the monitor and I'm not into becoming an engineer sleuth. I paid a small amount and I'll sell it and move on.

 

From experience working on the cheap has its pitfalls. I'm used to it.

[The Real MC]

I generally avoid gear that were released within a few years of MIDI's birth. A lot of MIDI implementations were incorrect.

[AnotherScott]

I just downloaded the manual for the Kawai... Have you set the Unit Channel to channel 2, as described on the bottom of page 48?

[16251]

I just downloaded the manual for the Kawai... Have you set the Unit Channel to channel 2, as described on the bottom of page 48?

 

Yes. Unit Channel is set to "2" This doesn't change whether it is in Performance or Compose mode.

 

Thanks for digging deeper in manual.