Let's talk about synths, baby - another rig dreaming thread

[SamuelBLupowitz]

I'm finding that after a year and a half of pandemic, I no longer have the patience or drive to deal with the Mainstage/iOS/MIDI controller life I was deeply invested in for the couple of years prior to the intial lockdown. It's just seemed so time consuming and tedious to prepare, and I've had so little bandwidth. The last straw for me was prepping for the first show by Noon Fifteen (my main band) since January 2020 -- many of the patches I had programmed for our material in Mainstage no longer worked, having been killed by updates and such in the interim. I went with a stripped-down iOS rig rather than spending the hours to re-program my complex mix of synths, samples, and sound effects triggered by various boards, and at the gig had to deal with a host of Bluetooth dropouts and stuck/hung notes. It was distracting to me, and (the hung notes in particular) the rest of the band.

 

So I think it's time to enter a new phase where I stick to hardware for awhile. And while my trusty Novation Ultranova can fill my synth void for the time being, I can't help but think about what kind of synth or workstation might better fill that "third board" need -- I have a dedicated organ and piano, so this would be for pitch bendy leads, basses, and (ideally) pads. How versatile a board sonically I need, well, that's something I can ponder! With my Seaboard/controller setup, I was primarily controlling synths, but also Mellotron, clavinet, pitched percussion, and anything else that wasn't covered by the Mojo or my Wurlitzer (now more often a Yamaha CP88). But I can definitely get into more of a "this is one instrument that can cover a lot of roles" like a Poly D or Hydrasynth, rather than "this can play any sound you can imagine" like a Nord Stage Compact or, I don't know, fill in the blank. I haven't done any research yet... I just thought all y'all were the right people to come to talk about, pipe dream, what would be the coolest thing to put over my piano to shred like Wakeman as well as groove like Stevie when Hammond or piano won't do?

 

I know I want reliability and immediacy -- something I don't love about the Novation is that, while it's very knobby, the rotary encoders need to be individually programmed for every patch, which is incredibly tedious, so I wind up not using them and mostly being a preset jockey (even if I've programmed the presets myself). I like a combination of patch memory and real-time control -- the live sets on my Nord Electro are really the ideal for me. Aftertouch would be great, expression pedal control would be ideal, and a light, fast action is a must. Ideally three or four octaves of keys, but I could be swayed to more or less. Oh, and I love stereo when I can get it, but I also love my talkbox, and it would be a sick bonus to have something with programmable outputs so I could have certain patches routed separately to the talkbox and don't have to worry about toggling the box on and off. I'm sure there are zillions of directions I could go with this.

 

So... what would YOU do?

[analogika]

I know you've ruled it out, but the Nord Stage 3 compact actually checks those boxes:

- aftertouch

- light, nice keybed

- stereo out

- per-patch output routing

- immediacy

- patch storage

 

plus it could replace the Nord Electro.

 

I really like the synth on the Stage a lot and end up on some projects whipping up some basic patches and tweaking the hell out of them live. It seems really easy to get where I want it to on-the-fly.

[RABid]

If I was gigging again the Roland Fantom 7 would be my dream board. I almost bought one but dropped those dollars into the black hole known as Eurorack.

[AnotherScott]

many of the patches I had programmed for our material in Mainstage no longer worked, having been killed by updates and such in the interim.

My feeling about using a Mac for gigging (or even at home/studio use) is, once you have it set up to do what you want, never update anything! Not unless you feel you must have something provided by the update. This means leaving the Mac on whatever OS it has. If you must run an updated OS for other reasons, you should have, if not a dedicated Mac for music, then at least a dedicated boot volume that remains on the old OS. OS updates break things, and for the music environment, are rarely worth doing, as keeping everything working through OS updates can potentially be both time consuming and expensive, for what is often no discernible benefit. If you could "roll back" your Mainstage rig to its earlier state from a backup (even if you were to install it onto a different boot volume), that might have been a good solution here.

 

at the gig had to deal with a host of Bluetooth dropouts and stuck/hung notes.

I'm curious as to what BT implementation you were using. I'm leery of BT, but want to experiment with the new CME stuff which, if claims are to be believed, seems to be the most flexible, most stable, lowest latency implementation.

 

think about what kind of synth or workstation might better fill that "third board" need -- I have a dedicated organ and piano, so this would be for pitch bendy leads, basses, and (ideally) pads...something I don't love about the Novation is that, while it's very knobby, the rotary encoders need to be individually programmed for every patch, which is incredibly tedious..I like a combination of patch memory and real-time control -- the live sets on my Nord Electro are really the ideal for me. Aftertouch would be great, expression pedal control would be ideal, and a light, fast action is a must. Ideally three or four octaves of key

Despite the "Nord Lead" meme around here... my suggestion is Nord Lead 3. I don't know anything about your Novation and don't really understand your issue with it, so I can't swear the NL3 addresses it, but NL3 has the best operational interface and ergonomics of any "patch memory and real-time control" synth I've ever seen. All the controls are always in the "right" place for the patch (or the active layer of the patch, if its a multi-layered patch), indicating their current values. Just like on a synth with no patch memory at all, you can look at the panel and instantly see every setting of every parameter. When you adjust something, there's no "jump" or "catch" issue, everything just changes as you intend. The magic of endless encoders and LED rings!

[AnotherScott]

If I was gigging again the Roland Fantom 7 would be my dream board.

For an "all in one" that would probably be my pick as well, if I could deal with the travel weight. Probably overkill as a "synthy" third board to add to a pair of piano-centric and organ-centric boards, unless maybe he decides he'd like more in the way of acoustic instrument emulations as well.

[Stokely]

My dream rig if I could afford it would be a nord stage 3 and either a clonewheel or a synth on top. Probably the ns3 compact due to weight but if I had a clonewheel then the big weighted one.

 

If a synth on top, I'm set with a Novation Summit. I wish we were doing more stuff where I could use it to its fullest but I'm finding ways to use it instead of always playing organ or electric piano or piano on everything.

 

So really I'm kind of set with the Modx7 and ipad with b-3x, and Summit on top...a nord stage would surely be "better" or at least simpler, but a bird in the hand

 

I've used software at home exclusively for years but never wanted to bring a laptop out. I know a few people that do it and they have had some nasty failures. The ipad on the other hand is easier since it only uses one cable and velcroes to the top of the Modx like it's another screen. If it fails for some reason I just use the organs on the MODX, nobody but me will mind

[allan_evett]

What would I do? I've been tempted by the Prophet X, but the price is well beyond my budget. So the Nord Wave 2 is the one I'm going after; even that will be a stretch to fund. I like the VA engine enough that living without 'real analog' won't be a problem, and the interface is a player's dream. Not sure if this is essential for you, but having a solid block of samples as an option is a big draw for me - and the lack of that a big reason I've put my Prologue up for sale. I tried to go the iPad-as-module route with it, but it was more a headache than a benefit; had many problems similar to what you described.

[SamuelBLupowitz]

My feeling about using a Mac for gigging (or even at home/studio use) is, once you have it set up to do what you want, never update anything!

So true! Unfortunately, late last year my old Mainstage Mac had a hard drive failure and I had to replace it. I think the issue lies more with Roli and their push to cloud service than the Apple OS updates, but it was enough to give me a headache and bail, since my complicated setup for our 25-minute rock opera was not going to fly without significant reprogramming.

 

I'm curious as to what BT implementation you were using. I'm leery of BT, but want to experiment with the new CME stuff which, if claims are to be believed, seems to be the most flexible, most stable, lowest latency implementation.

I've used my Seaboard's built-in Bluetooth on many, many gigs without issue in the before times; not really sure what was causing the dropouts on this show. Interference from everything else going on at the outdoor pavilion? Some user error I wasn't thinking of? The now-aged OS on my iPad? These are the kind of troubleshooting questions I don't feel like I have the same energy to deal with as I did before Covid, hahaha. I actually got one of the CME WIDI devices when they came out last year, with the intention of equipping the Mojo with it for smaller gigs where I could use it as a dual-manual controller with built-in organ. I haven't gotten there yet!

 

All the suggestions are great; I'm eating 'em up. Giving me toys to salivate over for the many months it will certainly be before I'm ready to invest in anything new... just nice to have something to look forward to!

[The Real MC]

Three boards is pretty much the same approach I settled on. Organ, weighted action MIDI controller (for piano and others), and polysynth. For polysynth, I use my Andromeda. Patch storage with split/layers, extra outputs for routing to other effects (per patch/split/layer), AT, nice keybed, very immediate. I didn't use the extra outputs until this current rig, and boy I never knew what I was missing.

 

One bonus I discovered with the XK3 organ is that in cancel mode it can still be used as a MIDI controller; there were songs with no organ parts and the Andromeda keyboard wasn't long enough to play all the synth sounds, so I used the XK3 to trigger Andromeda voices over MIDI. I have a pretty sophisticated MIDI system with an old JLCooper MSB+ serving as the MIDI matrix.

 

Your situation is one reason why I refuse to gig with a mobile or laptop. Configuring patches/effects per song is a LOT of work, and I'm not fond of having to re-do all that work because an OS or app update wiped out all my work.

[MAJUSCULE]

Probably a Summit or a Prologue. Lead is actually a decent suggestion this time, lol.

[MathOfInsects]

I answered that for myself already: Virus Ti2. And it checks all your boxes. I agree a Nord Lead would be a good suggestion here as well.

 

I've been leaning a bit toward the "wet edge" concept of keyboard rigs lately--having just the slightest bit of overlap between the capabilities so ideally I never have to bring three different boards, but can bring the subset that gets me most of the way there.

 

As a result I'm thinking of adding a weighted-key board to the herd, so that on piano-heavy gigs I can make the NS3C a second board used mostly for organ and synth, and on bread-and-butter gigs I can use the NS3 on the bottom and a synthy board on top (the Virus or less-synthy FA-06).

 

I made the mistake of putting my hands on a Nord Stage a couple of weeks ago. Trouble.

 

Good luck!

[Stokely]

I can say that after getting my Summit--I wish somewhat that I'd just gone with the Peak. I'm mainly using Single sounds. There might be some other differences, but if I had done this then I could have had the Peak (and knobs) in a smaller form factor to go with a clonewheel and a do-everything weighted. I absolutely love the Summit sound, the keyboard is very nice as well, but I'm trying like mad to only have two keyboards so something has to give! Right now that is organ, it's coming from an ipad.

 

Then again, I got a great deal on it, the Peak was close to double the price difference between them. At regular prices it would have been a tougher decision.

[CEB]

I entered the contest to win a Jupiter X. Maybe I'll get lucky. I doubt it.

[allan_evett]

Probably a Summit or a Prologue. Lead is actually a decent suggestion this time, lol.

 

 

I like the Nord Lead models; the latest one (A1) has some very cool tricks up its sleeve; I like the 4-part multi-timbrality a lot. Haven't tried the Summit yet; found the Peak intriguing when playing it at Gearfest. I have a Prologue 16 up for sale here. That's possibly an option - if no basic samples are needed, nor aftertouch.

The Prologue does have a lot going for it: the 2-Pole filter is gorgeous, and the Multi-Osc (Osc 3) is a big plus. Action is the same as that in the Kronos 61.

 

Another one that might work well is the Modal Cobalt 8. The demos are definitely worth checking out.

[Tom Williams]

I have a PC4-7 coming that will probably meet my organ + synth needs, but I'm still fascinated by the Studiologic Sledge for third-tier.

[Stokely]

I really like the Summit for cover band synth needs--the presets are mostly ambient soundscapes but there are a fair number of "bread and butter" synth patches to get you started. Novation has a really nice patch librarian system that runs in a browser if you want--it makes it super easy to pick and choose patches from a bunch of free (or ones you have bought) banks, and bring them together into custom banks. You can very simply send or load them to and from the keyboard. My buddy got a Prophet rev 2 and it doesn't come with anything like that as-is, I wouldn't discount this feature.

 

The FM sounds add additional flexibility as well.

 

An example of a song that my MODX just wasn't handling well--Don't You Forget About Me (Simple Minds), that main oberheim poly synth sound. The Summit sounds great there. The MODX can do the softer string pad sound of the verses just fine, but a punchy analog-sounding poly synth, I just couldn't get to stop sounding wimpy.

[allan_evett]

An example of a song that my MODX just wasn't handling well--Don't You Forget About Me (Simple Minds), that main oberheim poly synth sound. The Summit sounds great there. The MODX can do the softer string pad sound of the verses just fine, but a punchy analog-sounding poly synth, I just couldn't get to stop sounding wimpy.

 

That's something the Prologue absolutely nails, among a few other things. I just wish it had a dozen or so PCM samples in that Multi-Osc menu (which has 16 user slots). Most of user oscillators available so far are either FX/Filter choices or Eurorack-style synth expansion sounds - which I'm sure sound cool, but not what I need. There's one tonewheel custom oscillator for the Prologue that I like, but having some bread 'n butter piano, ep, orchestral, etc. samples for backup is essential for me. None have turned up my searches, so far.

[Moonglow]

+1 on the Jupiter X. Never played one, but I've talked to a couple of folks who love this board.

[SamuelBLupowitz]

Just to keep this wonderful discussion going, but also throw some different parameters into the mix -- one of the other options I've investigated, and would be interested in comparable boards, is the Yamaha Reface CS. Doesn't have the patch memory or output routing options of some of the other boards (granted, a lot of the stuff folks have mentioned is 5-10 times the cost of the CS), but it's small, lightweight, and relatively versatile for my needs, and I could use an iPad for patch storage and not have to rely on it for sound output (no disconnection from the sound source, or hung notes, if it fails).

 

That's sort of the opposite end of the spectrum from a Prophet or Nord Stage 3 Compact, but is more of a "replacement" for my Seaboard/bluetooth rig as a complement to my much bigger, heavier organ and piano boards, keeping my rig as more of a 2.5-piece rig rather than the full 3!

[allan_evett]

In light of that, a similar choice to consider is the Roland Jupiter-Xm. Lots of synth tone options, and a few fun twists on board. And you get to stay with the 2.5 keyboards rig..

[SamuelBLupowitz]

I stumbled on this thread from last summer and was very happy to see several recommendations for the Korg Prologue, since I've been eyeing some good deals for the 8-voice version on Reverb... seems like it would be a really nice balance of analog sound/digital convenience, portability/enough keys to get around on, versatility/one cohesive instrument ...

 

But also, haven't had a lot of mental bandwidth for music lately and other than window shopping synths I'm kind of taking a break. Covid is making me tired and lonely, y'all. How is every doing here?

[Joe Muscara]

18 minutes ago, SamuelBLupowitz said:

But also, haven't had a lot of mental bandwidth for music lately and other than window shopping synths I'm kind of taking a break. Covid is making me tired and lonely, y'all. How is every doing here?

There's no "cares" quick react here otherwise I would have.

Do you want to do another virtual forum hang soon?

Sorry you're struggling, @SamuelBLupowitz. I'm trying to chug along, though some cold weather here was a drag (I know, it's not like up there, but still), I had/have a little annoyance in my left hip that kept me from running, and I'm trying to get over a sinus infection (tested 2x at home and one PCR - it's not COVID) so the past couple weeks have not been where I want them to be. Still, I try to focus on the good things I have going and they are all around me. Heck, even the sinus infection might have been a bonus because it made me stop even walking for workouts so that might be helping my hip clear up faster.

I hope you can find the good you have, Sam.

[yannis D]

3 hours ago, SamuelBLupowitz said:

I stumbled on this thread from last summer and was very happy to see several recommendations for the Korg Prologue, since I've been eyeing some good deals for the 8-voice version on Reverb... seems like it would be a really nice balance of analog sound/digital convenience, portability/enough keys to get around on, versatility/one cohesive instrument ...

 

But also, haven't had a lot of mental bandwidth for music lately and other than window shopping synths I'm kind of taking a break. Covid is making me tired and lonely, y'all. How is every doing here?

 

Nice to be back. 

I won't try to respond to your original question, just philosophically. Get whatever you need but focus primarily on music and creativity and try to be simple gear wise. You can do more with less and you already have a lot in your sonic arsenal, so try to see what you can do with what you have and not what you want. 

I try the latter: i got a NE5d and a Mainstage gear and try to cover everything with this and focus on playing instead of the usual fears of "this might not be enough to get this sound and that sound". You get my point.

Other than this (and since you ask) I try to be in more bands than ever these days but the gigs are still slow. Hopefully i got three gigs in Israel on a couple of months with a world music ensemble i play with and there will be some very good players around, so I'm eager. Also a couple of gigs in Spain in June, fingers crossed. 

Keep us posted about your solution